what lbs makes it a warbow insted of a longbow

[adb]

Hey, ChrisD

Velocity is not the greatest contributing factor to penetration. Mass is. A heavier object travelling slower, will penetrate much more than a lighter object travelling faster. Would you rather get hit by a ping-pong ball going 100 mph, or a golf ball going 50 mph? I know which one I'd pick... one might leave a bruse, but the other will probably break bone. This is one of the reasons heavier arrows are more efficient when shot from heavy bows. I use this principle when hunting with rifles. A larger, slower bullet will penetrate much better than a high velocity lighter bullet. When hunting dangerous game in Africa, hunters use big calibers because they shoot big bullets. They're not going very fast, but penetration is vital, otherwise you get stomped (keeping in mind bullet construction is also considered).

[ChrisD]

Hey, ChrisD

Velocity is not the greatest contributing factor to penetration. Mass is. A heavier object travelling slower, will penetrate much more than a lighter object travelling faster. Would you rather get hit by a ping-pong ball going 100 mph, or a golf ball going 50 mph? I know which one I'd pick... one might leave a bruse, but the other will probably break bone. This is one of the reasons heavier arrows are more efficient when shot from heavy bows. I use this principle when hunting with rifles. A larger, slower bullet will penetrate much better than a high velocity lighter bullet. When hunting dangerous game in Africa, hunters use big calibers because they shoot big bullets. They're not going very fast, but penetration is vital, otherwise you get stomped (keeping in mind bullet construction is also considered).

Sorry adb, yes I know - but the mass of the arrow (or bullet or whatever) doesn't change between points a and b in a trajectory (unless of course it approaches light speed ). In any scientific experiment, you try to look at one variable only and control for all the others. In the case of penetration with an arrow of standard mass and a bow of standard weight and archers of standard ability, changes in velocity should tell you whether the penetration will be better or worse at the various distances. Penetration of course will also vary with angle of incidence and a whole host of other factors no doubt, which is why for this question, I would favour results derived from chronograph data.

As I think I mentioned before, heavier arrows do better - they weigh more and carry more momentum as a result, but like I say, the mass doesn't vary in flight so its a bit of a 'so what?'

C

[Yeomanbowman]

EWBS? Not a scientific organisation of which I'm aware and therefore can't comment on what they've discovered. I hear wonderful - almost magical things from them but without scrutineering or any authentication, can't possibly comment. I will say this though - get the facsimile arrows even a bit wrong, and the equipment you need to drive them will inevitably sky rocket.

Hello Chris,

I wonder if you could clarify some of your points, please?

I don't think any archery group is also a scientific organisation or am I wrong?  The EWBS is the only group to differentiate between different period bow woods and non-period bows so it's data is very valid.

Secondly, you raise scrutineering or authentication.  When I shot with the BL-BS, Pickwicks (Simon Stanley's Military arrow) and shoot with GNAS I was not aware of any outside scrutineering from another body.  Was this the case?  Actually at Batsford it could be argued that this happens, however perhaps you have a point.  Al and I are putting on a shoot on the 29th August and it would be great if you could come down and verify the distances.  Why not post the results here?   It's an open shoot so no worries about insurance.  You can shoot too, I'll pay your entry fee.  I'll send you a PM with the details, you will have fun I'm sure.

Finally, have you seen our Livery Arrow specification?  Here are links to it in more depth.
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/EWBS_ARROW_SPECIFICATIONS.html
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/tudor-livery-arrow.html
Given that not even the MR arrows were of one design and we can never know every detail for absolutely sure I wonder what you think is amiss and what society's arrow spec' is better?

Cheers,
Jeremy

Edited due to spelling

[outcaste]

EWBS? Not a scientific organisation of which I'm aware and therefore can't comment on what they've discovered. I hear wonderful - almost magical things from them but without scrutineering or any authentication, can't possibly comment. I will say this though - get the facsimile arrows even a bit wrong, and the equipment you need to drive them will inevitably sky rocket.

  Al and I are putting on a shoot on the 29th August and it would be great if you could come down and verify the distances.  Why not post the results here?   It's an open shoot so no worries about insurance.  You can shoot too, I'll pay your entry fee.  I'll send you a PM with the details, you will have fun I'm sure.

Finally, have you seen our Livery Arrow specification?  Here are links to it in more depth.
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/EWBS_ARROW_SPECIFICATIONS.html
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/tudor-livery-arrow.html
Given that not even the MR arrows were of one design and we can never know every detail for absolutely sure I wonder what you think is amiss and what society's arrow spec' is better?

Cheers,
Jeremy

Edited due to spelling

Hi Chris,

I would just like to second Jeremys offer also and to say that we would warmly welcome any archer who is curious about the EWBS. Chris, if you would like to come you can PM Jeremy or myself for details and any others names who would like to come.

Regarding data, any shoots that Jeremy and I have organised we have gone to great lengths to compile lists of bow weights, wood types within our three  bow classes relating to specifc arrow types/distances. I have also noted weather conditions/wind mph etc.

I thought you might be interested in the following:

Mary Rose Class (self-yew bow)

Livery Arrow: Average - 213 yards  Average winning distance - 246 yards

It should also be noted that those archers reaching 220 yards or more shot self-yew bows of 120lbs+. The Society record is 272 yards shot by a bow a little over 130lbs.

Cheers,
Alistair 

[ChrisD]

EWBS? Not a scientific organisation of which I'm aware and therefore can't comment on what they've discovered. I hear wonderful - almost magical things from them but without scrutineering or any authentication, can't possibly comment. I will say this though - get the facsimile arrows even a bit wrong, and the equipment you need to drive them will inevitably sky rocket.

Hello Chris,

I wonder if you could clarify some of your points, please?

I don't think any archery group is also a scientific organisation or am I wrong?  The EWBS is the only group to differentiate between different period bow woods and non-period bows so it's data is very valid.

Secondly, you raise scrutineering or authentication.  When I shot with the BL-BS, Pickwicks (Simon Stanley's Military arrow) and shoot with GNAS I was not aware of any outside scrutineering from another body.  Was this the case?  Actually at Batsford it could be argued that this happens, however perhaps you have a point.  Al and I are putting on a shoot on the 29th August and it would be great if you could come down and verify the distances.  Why not post the results here?   It's an open shoot so no worries about insurance.  You can shoot too, I'll pay your entry fee.  I'll send you a PM with the details, you will have fun I'm sure.

Finally, have you seen our Livery Arrow specification?  Here are links to it in more depth.
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/EWBS_ARROW_SPECIFICATIONS.html
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/tudor-livery-arrow.html
Given that not even the MR arrows were of one design and we can never know every detail for absolutely sure I wonder what you think is amiss and what society's arrow spec' is better?

Cheers,
Jeremy

Edited due to spelling

Jeremy (and Alistair)

You're right, other archery associations don't class themselves as scientific organisations either- but then I don't remember the Pickwicks or anyone involved as claiming 'discoveries' about the MR bows or anything else. True, the JH competition was an attempt in the direction of data collection but you don't get it bandied around on any forum (not even on the closed one which I participate in).

I agree with you that the issue of scrutineering really does need looking at - not only for the satisfaction of the archery community but also for the enhancement of the good reputations of the archers who achieve what they do. The example below

The record was set at around 430 yds but this was not a recorded world flight record

The actual distance was recorded at 438yds, shot by Alistair Aston, this is an official record with the EWBS and a world record, just because it wasn't shot at a FITA event doesn't mean it isn't official. It was measured with laser range finders by Mark Stretton and the bow was checked by both Mark Stretton and Steve Stratton, both commitee oficials within the EWBS, this shot was witnessed by over 50 other archers from around Europe

Illustrates my point. Yes it is scrutineering, but no it isn't independent - although I don't doubt that the best possible was done on the day. A flight shoot is basically a speed test. In any speed test of which I'm aware, the scrutineering  is done by a different organisation to the organiser/participants. The FIA for example is separate from FOTA or the team owners in F1 motor racing. Thus the highest standards are maintained - and if this was done, you wouldn't get the squawking that goes on each time the EWBS announces a NEW WORLD RECORD.

Its  kind of you both to invite me to your shoot on 29th Aug. I'm due to be out of the country then but I wouldn't attend in any case as a scrutineer, I'd like to shoot - I can think of a number of appropriate people to do that who have never weighed in in any part of the debates between the heavy bow interested parties and are therefore properly independent and of stature in the field. I would like to attend one of your open shoots however and if there is one between about mid Sept and mid Oct, please pm me. After that, all bets are off for me for now and perhaps for some time as I will be awaiting the imminent birth of child no 2 and my archery may be stuffed for a bit.

All the best to you both.

Chris

[outcaste]

EWBS? Not a scientific organisation of which I'm aware and therefore can't comment on what they've discovered. I hear wonderful - almost magical things from them but without scrutineering or any authentication, can't possibly comment. I will say this though - get the facsimile arrows even a bit wrong, and the equipment you need to drive them will inevitably sky rocket.

Hello Chris,

I wonder if you could clarify some of your points, please?

I don't think any archery group is also a scientific organisation or am I wrong?  The EWBS is the only group to differentiate between different period bow woods and non-period bows so it's data is very valid.

Secondly, you raise scrutineering or authentication.  When I shot with the BL-BS, Pickwicks (Simon Stanley's Military arrow) and shoot with GNAS I was not aware of any outside scrutineering from another body.  Was this the case?  Actually at Batsford it could be argued that this happens, however perhaps you have a point.  Al and I are putting on a shoot on the 29th August and it would be great if you could come down and verify the distances.  Why not post the results here?   It's an open shoot so no worries about insurance.  You can shoot too, I'll pay your entry fee.  I'll send you a PM with the details, you will have fun I'm sure.

Finally, have you seen our Livery Arrow specification?  Here are links to it in more depth.
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/EWBS_ARROW_SPECIFICATIONS.html
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/tudor-livery-arrow.html
Given that not even the MR arrows were of one design and we can never know every detail for absolutely sure I wonder what you think is amiss and what society's arrow spec' is better?

Cheers,
Jeremy

Edited due to spelling

Jeremy (and Alistair)

You're right, other archery associations don't class themselves as scientific organisations either- but then I don't remember the Pickwicks or anyone involved as claiming 'discoveries' about the MR bows or anything else. True, the JH competition was an attempt in the direction of data collection but you don't get it bandied around on any forum (not even on the closed one which I participate in).

I agree with you that the issue of scrutineering really does need looking at - not only for the satisfaction of the archery community but also for the enhancement of the good reputations of the archers who achieve what they do. The example below

The record was set at around 430 yds but this was not a recorded world flight record

The actual distance was recorded at 438yds, shot by Alistair Aston, this is an official record with the EWBS and a world record, just because it wasn't shot at a FITA event doesn't mean it isn't official. It was measured with laser range finders by Mark Stretton and the bow was checked by both Mark Stretton and Steve Stratton, both commitee oficials within the EWBS, this shot was witnessed by over 50 other archers from around Europe

Illustrates my point. Yes it is scrutineering, but no it isn't independent - although I don't doubt that the best possible was done on the day. A flight shoot is basically a speed test. In any speed test of which I'm aware, the scrutineering  is done by a different organisation to the organiser/participants. The FIA for example is separate from FOTA or the team owners in F1 motor racing. Thus the highest standards are maintained - and if this was done, you wouldn't get the squawking that goes on each time the EWBS announces a NEW WORLD RECORD.

Its  kind of you both to invite me to your shoot on 29th Aug. I'm due to be out of the country then but I wouldn't attend in any case as a scrutineer, I'd like to shoot - I can think of a number of appropriate people to do that who have never weighed in in any part of the debates between the heavy bow interested parties and are therefore properly independent and of stature in the field. I would like to attend one of your open shoots however and if there is one between about mid Sept and mid Oct, please pm me. After that, all bets are off for me for now and perhaps for some time as I will be awaiting the imminent birth of child no 2 and my archery may be stuffed for a bit.

All the best to you both.

Chris

Hi Chris,

It's a shame that you can't make the August shoot, maybe as you said, some other time.

Trying to stagger to somewhere near topic, I was using the data collected at our shoots (livery arrow/self-yew bow) to illustrate how we can further our understanding using modern approximations and I am sure that as time progresses this will give a valuable insight into what lbs make a warbow.

Scrutineering is an interesting point and one that I am at a loss in which to offer something that would please you. I would argue that GNAS/GB Archery flight championships (validated by FITA) offer a benchmark and would suggest that for the last two world flight records (FITA) set reflect/are very close to those set at EWBS shoots for self and laminated bows (non-historical), incidently shot by the same archers.

Anyway all the best,
Alistair




 

[Yeomanbowman]

Hello Chris,

Yes, that is a shame you cannot come.  The offer was for you to also shoot if you missed that on my original post as well as scrutineering. 
Sorry, I'm more interested in archery than motor sports.  I'll take your word for it

Cheers,
Jeremy