Author Topic: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.  (Read 19089 times)

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davecrocket

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 01:01:51 pm »
I have tried to post pictures of the arrow on here but I can`t get the size below 200MB.  So I put them on Photobucket.  I think you should be able to find them.

I could not cut in the fletchings as this would have made the shaft too thin.  I will try again though.  Also I think I will dispense with the shoulder at the start of the fletching with my next arrow.  As you can see, I did not use goose feathers, but bought ones.

The head is homemade.  It is cut out of 3mm mild steel and then shaped.  After heating, I plunged it in oil to harden it.  I then sharpened it.  I then glued and whipped in.  The whole thing weighs 80 grams.

I will try to shoot it soon and I will post the results.  After distance trials I think I will shoot it into a corrugated sheet and then compare with my conventional arrows.  This should also tell me if I need to foot my next arrow.

Dave.



davecrocket

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Offline bow-toxo

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  • Posts: 337
Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2009, 02:02:36 am »
Hi Dave,
 Before trying to make a replica I suggest that you find a picture of a Nydam arrow or some mediaeval arrow and then make one that looks something like the picture.
         
                                                                                                Erik

davecrocket

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2009, 06:17:33 am »
It was never my intention to make a replica.  (For a start my arrow making skills are not up to it!).
I am interested in the aerodynamics of the bulbous nock.  Also it seems logical that the fletchings sit in a recess as the shaft has to come back up to fatness.  (A bit like old Turkish arrows.)
What I have made is a is more of a model than a replica.
It is possible that no English arrows have survived from the period I am interested in.  I think that if there are advantages in the aerodynamics or release then these would have been exploited.
Dave.

Offline bow-toxo

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  • Posts: 337
Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2009, 03:06:36 pm »
It was never my intention to make a replica.  (For a start my arrow making skills are not up to it!).


Sorry, I thought you wanted to make a mediaeval arrow.

davecrocket

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2009, 05:19:35 pm »
I do, but I do not know what they look like.  I want to make the arrow that was shot from an English war bow in it`s hayday which I thought would be about between 1066 and 1415 maybe.  I could be quite wrong here Erik.  I didn`t think any survived (again I could be wrong).  I want to keep making arrows but I don`t know what they looked like and more impotantly the principles which made them so much better than spined or Tudor arrows.  If I could find an arrow from this period then I would certainly like to copy it, but in the mean time it looks like I will have to keep guessing and trying out different principles like what I have done.  Sorry I have been a bit rambling, but I just want ideas to try them out, and you have been very informative. 
Dave.

daniel

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2009, 08:48:35 pm »
check this out

[attachment deleted by admin]

triton

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2009, 03:40:26 pm »
I've been reliably informed that bulbous nocks were used in conjunction with a thumb ring.

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2009, 07:25:34 pm »
I've been reliably informed that bulbous nocks were used in conjunction with a thumb ring.

 In what context ? No Europan thumbrings have been found and the earliest European illustrations as well as written sources involve a two or three finger draw but bulbous nocks were used from the Roman period until shortly before Tudor times, I would think in order to have a safe self nock.

                                                                                                      Cheers.
                                                                                                         Erik

Offline Jaro

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2009, 02:26:31 am »
I simply cannot see Anthony of Burgundy shooting with a thumb ring.

davecrocket

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2009, 07:32:59 pm »
Thank you very much for the pictures Daniel.  That is much more like it.  My arrow was rubbish.  I don`t know why I thought I had to put the fletchings in a recess.  Been looking at too many Turkish arrows maybe.  Anyway I don`t think any of you need to be told I failed when I shot it.  It was just like shooting an over spined arrow in a weak bow.

I will try to make on of those.  I wish his hand wasn`t in the way.  The tapering is very harsh on closer inspection.

I have been emailed by Mike who works for a master fletcher and he also associates bulbous nocks with rings.  The arrows I have seen that would have been shot with rings do have bulbous ends alot of the time, but the actual nock is thin and pointy.  This is where the confusion is creeping in I think.  A nock to me is the bit where the string sits in.  I collect archery rings and it makes sense to have the knock as slender as you can so it can sit as close to the ring as possible.  I could be wrong.

As for making these arrows..it`s a real pain.  I have only been doing it for a couple of years.  Other arrows that I have made have been much easier.  I have a steel plate with holes in with different diameters which alows me to shave them down and shape them.  I can`t use the smaller holes because the nock won`t fit in.

Thank you all very much for all your helpful advice and coments.


Rod

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2009, 10:15:50 am »
I've been reliably informed that bulbous nocks were used in conjunction with a thumb ring.

With a composite bow, no doubt.
With an English bow, unlikely.

Rod.

triton

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2009, 11:45:05 am »
have it your way but I've seen hundred year old arrows along with the bows.  they are of course victorian but the reasons they used thumb rings with bulbous nocks remains the same.

Rod

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2009, 08:09:08 am »
have it your way but I've seen hundred year old arrows along with the bows.  they are of course victorian but the reasons they used thumb rings with bulbous nocks remains the same.

Perhaps I should have made it clearer that my comment refers to the use of thumb rings with an English bow, not to the use of thumb rings with bulbous nocks which may or may not be the practice in other cultures.

Nor would an English lawn archery shaft of one hundred years ago typically have a bulbous nock as you seem to imply.

Presumably the "they" in your second paragraph does not refer to Victorian archers shooting English bows....  :-)

Rod.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 08:24:20 am by Rod »

Rod

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Re: Pre 14thC bulbous English arrows.
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2009, 08:48:43 am »
The picture posted by Daniel shows an interesting variant on a gentleman's sporting shaft, if you compare this to the Lutrell Psalter picture (used on the cover of Hardy's "Longbow" and also shown in "The Great Warbow") you will see a different nock aperture, not the triangular shape of this Burgundian example on a  clearly bobtailed shaft, but more of an enlarged "C" shaped nock aperture shown in use for shooting at the butts in an earlier period, also with the interesting bulbous head with the marks made by these heads on impact with the clay face of the butt.

Neither of these are primarily bulbous nocks so as to be "pinch gripped" as we usually understand the term, they are far more likely to be "clip on" in function, something not in evidence on a livery shaft for warfare, partly no doubt for reasons of economy of production, partly for the reasons given by Ascham in making his distinction in nocking depth and function between shafts for war and shafts for sport.

It should also be borne in mind that primary and secondary pinch grips, where employed, set a lower draw weight limit on the bow than that which would be used in a heavy war bow culture for fighting, though it should be noted that Gaston Phoebus does make a recommendation that a lighter draw weight than that typical in a war bow might be usefuly be employed for hunting.
Not that I expect that this is addressed to the common archers, but obviously to literate gentlemen who may well have been less frequent users of the bow.

It is also worth noting that with a basic pinch grip, above a certain draw weight, the arrow escapes the grip, like it or not.
Where a primitive culture uses a very heavy bow, we do not see a simple pinch grip in use.
For example, the Liangulu elephant hunters, drawing around 100 lb use a grip not unlike a Mediterranean loose.

FWIW

Rod.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 08:52:10 am by Rod »