Author Topic: Zero string follow secrets?  (Read 49853 times)

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Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2009, 04:25:54 pm »
Radius, the post of yours along with the others I deleted were deleted because they were political points and had no other purpose. I do not delete foul language posts when possible, I edit out the language.

As for your question on freedom of speech. Yes the vets from many countries fought in many wars to protect that freedom, and to them and their families I am truly gratefull. This is entirely different. No vet fought to allow anyone to go to another's house and spraypaint offensive language on the wall in the name of free speech. For all intents and purposes this forum is PA's house. The law, and common sense tell us that they should be allowed to decide what is spray painted on the wall?
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

radius

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2009, 05:05:23 pm »
well put, Justin, and i concede.  Thanks for putting it that way. 

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2009, 06:28:10 pm »
Just curious, how old are you Scott?

Offline mullet

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2009, 09:04:35 pm »
  Eric, not old enough and do us a favor, don't go there.  Scott, do us a favor, too let it ride. O:)
Lakeland, Florida
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2009, 09:11:52 pm »
Dano,
I've made bows that started with 5 in of reflex and kept 3 in of it. 2 in of set not string follow because the tips aren't following the string. jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

radius

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2009, 09:14:48 pm »
  Eric, not old enough and do us a favor, don't go there.  Scott, do us a favor, too let it ride. O:)

i'm good, i'm good...had my little spasm of contrariness but it is gone...happens to everyone...i mean what i said but i don't need to say it here, that's fine.  My apologies.


Eric, I'm 37.  You looking for a date?  I think i might be too young for ya!

Offline PatM

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2009, 10:44:38 pm »
I can't believe there would even be a discussion about the two terms. You would have to be obsessed with terms to not see that they mean the same thing. It's like saying "fast" or "quick".
 The decision to call the set past straight "string follow" is really meaningless. Whether the tips are in front of the grip or not they are still headed in the direction of the string. The string is 'leading" them, so they are following it.
 It has only become an issue since people started being able to build consistent reflex into a bow.
 

Offline Jesse

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2009, 11:46:49 pm »
Well I have to add that I have had the experience twice of tillering r/d bbi bows that ended with exactly the same reflex they started with and did not change through tillering and hundreds of shots so it is possible ;) Both of them do show slight temporary set right when unstrung but return to 1 1/2 reflex after a short rest. Both were tillered from Knight D's blanks. I dont really know why but these ones just did not take any set. The only thing I could figure is that maybe they are gaining reflex while removing wood and taking set at the same time thus no measurable difference. I have seen lam bows gain reflex while tillering and then loose it again but these just stayed the same throughout ??? On a selfbow if you plan to end up flat you just have to start out with some reflex.    People use the term string follow when referring to how far the tips are from the handle when past center towards the string so in theory you could have a bow with 8" string follow and 0 set if it started out 8" from the handle ;D I think the terms should simply be temporary set and permanent set when talking about set.  We need a term for the opposite of reflex and that for now is string follow not the same as set. Set can cause string follow but string follow is not set in my opinion :)
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
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radius

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2009, 12:38:49 am »
Set can cause string follow but string follow is not set in my opinion :)

that's what i was trying to say

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2009, 01:02:19 am »
Gentleman, you don't have to agree with me. LOL. It's ok. It's not like this is baseball. Opposite viewpoints are certainly welcome. But I hold my ground on this one. I prefer to distinguish between the 2 concepts-set and string follow. No T shirts. My saying. All rights reserved. Set does happen. :) Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline zeNBowyer

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2009, 01:13:56 am »
I want to see the copyright, we'll throw you a free shirt:)
"There's  something  immoral  about  abandoning  your  own  judgement"
Cowards always run in  packs
Ishi did not become the arrow, I suspect. The arrow became Ishi.

radius

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2009, 01:29:21 am »
Jawge! 


Offline Pappy

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2009, 06:08:03 am »
I'm with Jawges on this one also. There may be no difference but the performance will suffer more with string follow than set,and yes set dose happen,just controlling how much is the trick. I try and do that by tillering in several stages,Brace, then out to 12 inches or so then out to 18/20 then on to full draw with a lot of rest and exercise in between each session. :) and especially with white wood keeping it dry all the way through the process. :)
   Pappy
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DCM4

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2009, 10:44:44 am »
I don't find the semantics question particularly compelling, or whatever aside the ed staff had to birddog, but I do think the topic has a LOT of merit.

I'm glad Eric posted what he did.  For years the dogma has been "set happens" as if it is something inevitable, something inherent and not introduced.  Fact is that set is CAUSED.  If you "overbuild" a bow enough, it will not change is profile during construction or use.  While I haven't had a selfbow project turn out this way, I'm convinced it can be done.  Badger pointed out a very useful technique years ago.  Check your draw weight at various intervals of tiller, say 20", 22", 24", 26".  Generally you'll find you get the same draw weight at say 20" until you get to about 26".  At this point you've exceeded the elastic limits of the material and you'll not ever get the same reading at 20".  This obviously assuming no wood removal, no change in moisture content, anything.  What you'll find is that you once you've broken past the elastic threshold, you'll never again achieve the efficiency potential once in the project.  Bow building for me has become a dance with the stave, to find and not cross this threshold, or at least not by too much.  It's a whole new way of looking at bow building, although not new.  Jim Fetrow preached the same thing 10 years ago, and was soundly ridiculed for it.  A bow can be made with no set, but not by the methods usually advocated, and taken for granted.  And, like Eric said, when it comes to bow wood whether species matters remains a question, but specimen definately matters.

I've actually had r/d bows increase reflex as belly wood is removed, where I had a lot of "spring back" out of the glue up.  The stronger belly was actually holding the relfex down.  I assume a similar phenomenon is taking place on "zero" set stave bows.  As belly wood is removed tension wood on the back is offseting the crushed belly wood.


Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Zero string follow secrets?
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2009, 01:01:37 pm »
DCM, it is good to hear from you. Having your input is nice. I trust all is well with you and yours. I have never made or seen a zero set or string follow bow. I've seen "even" bows and I've seen reflexed bows. They've come from reflexed staves.  I challenge anyone to begin with an even stave and result in EXACTLY the same -even. Conditions- your bow must be of the same usual dimensions, you must draw it the same distance, and it  must be the same weight you normally build. Overbuilt bows are more likely to result in zero set. You must also use the same species you normally use. When I measure set I place the back of the bow up against the wall and measure tip deflection. One other condition- 0.001 in. of set is still set. DCM, you dance with your staves. I cradle mine rocking them gently in my hands until they  are ready to become bows. I Floor tiller and long string tillering to just 10# over final draw weight and gently string at a low brace for the first time. I don't pull to target weight until 1 inch under my draw length. Credit Mr Fetrow for that  tip. Very interesting. I've already tried and couldn't do it but In do try each time. Perhaps there is someone out there who can build  a zero set bow  with the conditions I have delineated. I  do find this discussion interesting. DCM, have you ever built a zero set bow? It's a laudable goal. I gotta look into those T shirts.  :) Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!