Author Topic: Little histlory behind the mass theory  (Read 5979 times)

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Offline Badger

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Little histlory behind the mass theory
« on: January 17, 2010, 07:05:01 PM »
      I thought I might post a little history about where the mass theory came from and why I came up with it in the first place. Tim Baker actualy started it. His mantra was, " make the limbs wide enough near the handle to take no set, mid limb just a little set" I used to pester him and say how wide is wide enough? Tim then came up with a bending wood test and posted a way to apply it to a bow, it seemed to work pretty well but I used to get confused trying to figure out how to use it. Then they came up with wood charts noting typical bending properties of different woods. You get the picture here, there were several of us trying to figure out how wide to make a bow. We would e email back and forth, talk on the phone, argue, challenge then back to the drawing board. Just prior to the mass principle and something I still use I came up with something called
" no set tillering" it is much more accurate than the mass theory but not as quick and easy to use and the differerence in results are not dramatic, I actually use them together now, I use the mass theory until I am about 16" into tillering then switch to no set tillering. The mass theory tells me a lot about the condition of the wood, too light I am too dry, too heavy I am too wet. I have to admit that there was a bit of ego attached to this, finding the magic formula for width had become like th eholy grail to a bunch of us and had actually become my major challenge in bow building. I felt like I was in a race to get it before someone else did. It was trail and error all the way. I got it to work pretty well on pyramid bows but found that didnt work for paralell limbs, every time a bow changed the mass I needed seemed to change with it. It took a while before I finaly recognised that everytime something on a bow changed I needed to adjust the mass accordingly because the strain on the wood was changing. Once I planned away to assault the problem it came together pretty fast.
I built about 25 pyramides of all different lengths, about 25 elbs of all different lengths and about 25 paralell limb bows all different lengths. Once they were all roughed out I started finishing them all of using the no set tillering method which I will explain here. All the bows in the group that were successful performance wise and no set wise I averaged out and just played with the numbers till I found simple formulas that seemed to average out pretty well. From that point I spent about another year just perfecting it the best i could and trying to plug all the holes I could find.
   The no set tillering is pretty cool I think, you don't measure mass at all. you simply start tillering as you normaly would but use your scale to monitor set. You actually pick up on it before it is visble. When you put your bow on the tiller tree just carefully note what the draw weight is at a specific distance, say 16". now as you pull it to 17" you go back and check 16 to see if it changed, then go to 18 then 19 then 20 each time going back to 16 which has become your benchmark and looking for the slightest change. If you note a slight change examine your tiller closely and remove a bit of wood to reduce strain, Now make a new benchmark at your last place you pulled to and go on tillering each time going back to the last spot and checking the weight. Anytime you see the slightest drop in weight at your benchmark you take off more wood on the belly, taking wood off the sides if you need to drop weight. If you compelte the bow and get zero set which is rare you will be shocked at how it shoots. Not hard to gt less than 1" using this method.

Offline adb

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 08:08:37 PM »
Wow. This is incredible and very helpful information. Thanks for the history of your theory, and your "no set" tillering method. I have not used it, but certainly will in the near future. Thanks, Steve!!

Offline gmc

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 08:29:28 PM »
What great stuff! Thanks for sharing.

Greg
Central Kentucky

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 08:36:44 PM »
Badger, seems like this method needs to have some superior wood with no flaws, no knots, no twists, no kinks. If only so you can get a darn near perfect tiller right at the outset. May be as with a board? I'm thinking of the last stave I made into a bow. That son battled me right up until 25 in of draw length. I finally got a decent tiller at 26 in. So here's my question what are the implications of this procedure for the character stave? :) Jawge
New Hampshire

Offline Badger

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2010, 08:39:55 PM »
  Jawge, you hit the nail on the head, a super clean stave or a board is where it starts, kinks and knots all add a bit. Steve

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2010, 08:47:16 PM »
I am going to try that tillering process on the last 5 inches of the bow I am making right now. I know I am a little heavy on the physical weight, but tiller is pretty close so it should be a good bow to start practicing on. Thanks again Steve, you might make a bowyer out of us yahoos yet.
Judging people does not define who they are... It defines who YOU are.


SW Utah

Offline Lombard

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 09:07:36 PM »
This is one of the reasons that I am so drawn to this community of bowyers. Many of you guys have put a great deal of time and effort into developing this craft. That most of you are so willing to share the knowledge that you've gained through experience, and experimentation; is a testament to your generosity, and dedication to the craft. Being as I have only gotten back into building bows in the last two years, you guys have taken years off my learning curve. Yet despite the adversarial nature of certain people, you guys just keep giving. This post by Badger being a good case in point. Steve thank you sir.
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” Thomas Jefferson

Communications Gypsy since 1985.

Offline Badger

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 09:07:56 PM »
   I think Mark St Louis could hold his own against any bowyer in history. On top of his 30 years experience he is just plain good at what he does. I wasn't blessed with such talent so I did it the hard way and made bows day and night for about 10 years on an experimental basis. So between the two of us I think we might have a little edge on you. Steve

Offline PatM

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2010, 09:13:03 PM »
Yeah, but if you had to give that in mass would you and Marc's experience weigh the same? ;D

Offline rileyconcrete

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 09:28:18 PM »
Steve,

This may be a question that I will figure out just by typing this reply but I am gonna ask anyways.  When you have a bow or stave that is snakey and has nots in this case, osage, will the mass principle change?  If so what are the guidelines you would go by to best estimate the projected mass?

Thanks for all your wonderful info.  I have read through the chapter and didnt really understand it until going through the two threads about this topic.  I really appreciate the time you have given all of us.

Thanks
Tell
Tell Riley

Offline Badger

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2010, 09:45:02 PM »
Riley, I use it quite a bit so am more in tune with it than most but i judge it by how much working limb I have, if the snakes are not interfering wit the working limb I just figure it normal, if I have a few knots I just throw in a couple of extra ounces. Character bows really don't apply all that well, a little character won't throw it off much but after a point it would be almost useless. Steve

Offline rileyconcrete

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2010, 09:54:35 PM »
That makes sense.  I understand the mass principle and it makes sense, but I havent applied it to a bow yet. I think that will be part of my next bow. I am really interested in making the mark to get a feel of the performance.

Thanks again.

Tell
Tell Riley

Offline Dane

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 05:22:54 AM »
Steve, thanks for the no set information. That will be very useful all by itself. I think perhaps I am ready to try out the mass theory and see where it takes me. Since I am not a lawyer, I think I will be okay. :)

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline TBod

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 10:24:04 AM »
Thanks for sharing info. Looking forward to that Masstheory/saplingbuildalong.

Offline sulphur

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Re: Little histlory behind the mass theory
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 11:35:00 AM »
great info steve.  very interesting.  i believe i have been done this method sort of.  i really pay close attention to weight at 20 inches. and always watch the unstrung profile for signs of set.  i have a lot to learn though.

whats the deal with jumpin on scp,  i guess i missed something.