Subject: "Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build Along"Marc St LouisTue Jan-27-04 07:43 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#57739, "Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build Alon..."
I had this bow to sinew so I thought I would do it as a build along, for those that are interested. This bow is the one that lifted a splinter on the back a few months ago. It’s a hard Elm, not sure which species, that is 61” N to N and 1 3/4” wide at the fades. Initially I had recurved the bow, heat treated several inches of reflex into it and had tillered it out to 26” where it was pulling around 60# when it let go. I chased the next ring down before applying the sinew. Here’s a couple of pics that show what the bow looked like before lifting the splinter.
Because of the time involved in curing the sinew the process of laying it was done a couple of months ago and then the bow was put aside for those 2 months, which was a couple of months ago . I started working the bow a couple of days ago. Following are a few pics of the process I use for sinewing a bow.
First of all I reverse braced the bow
I then soaked my sinew in warm water to soften it up. The sinew at the top is from Moose legs and will be used as the last course.
Next I layed one course from the base of the handle the full length of the working part of the limbs, leaving out the handle area.
Next course of sinew goes from the handle right up to the base of the recurve, excluding the edges of the limbs.
Next is a course that goes from the handle right up to the tips. This course is about 1" wide layed down the centre of the limbs.
Last of all is a strip about 1/2" wide layed right down the center of the limb. This last course stops at the base of the recurves.
After all the sinew is applied I then use a dowel through the string to twist in more reflex
The bow was then put in a cool area with a lot of air movement, I use the bottom of my stairs. Here is what it looked like after drying overnight. You can see that most of the sinew has dried, except for the thicker part down the center.
The last pic for tonight is of the bow taken a few days ago. The sinew has dried and been curing for about 2 months now. Total backset is 10"
If there's any questions then fire away and I'll try and answer them.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
CT KnapperTue Jan-27-04 07:54 PM
Member since Oct 28th 2003 190 posts
#57741, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..."
is it 6 deer leg sinews and 6 moose?
i can't think of anything else at the moment to ask. but you have alot of talent. wow.
dave
Marc St LouisTue Jan-27-04 08:04 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#57744, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #1
Dave I used 1 Moose leg tendons and 4 Deer. What you see there is merely a few bundles that I had wetted in preparation to sinewing.
By the way this bow will be tillered out to 28".
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
GeorgeTsoukalasTue Jan-27-04 09:14 PM
Charter member 3154 posts
#57755, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #2
Mighty fine build'em up. Marc. Thank you. jawge
PhyshTue Jan-27-04 09:34 PM
Member since Sep 01st 2003 715 posts
#57760, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #3
How long are the sinew pieces? Mine are short (8+- inches) Where can i get moose sinew? Saying its impossible means you have already given up.
Pat BWed Jan-28-04 12:17 AM
Member since Dec 12th 2002 1064 posts
#57789, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #4
Great project,Marc. This will help me get started on my first sinew backed bow. Osage recurve,67" with natural backset. I've got everything I need but a kick start. Pat
genesis (Guest)Wed Jan-28-04 12:27 AM
#57791, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #5
Mark, seeing your mess reminds me why I don't build them sinew bows anymore No realy your process is about how I did them cept mine where mostly flatbows... are you sure your name isn't Mark Static St.Louis
JD
PhyshWed Jan-28-04 06:45 AM
Member since Sep 01st 2003 715 posts
#57796, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #6
thats what the st stands for..lol static, and see my pictures arnt all that big! Saying its impossible means you have already given up.
AZStickmanWed Jan-28-04 09:56 AM
Member since Dec 03rd 2003 24 posts
#57805, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 09:59 AM by AZStickman
Nice Build along Marc......I like your reflexing jig..... simple and efficient.... do you reverse tiller before reflexing in the jig for sinewing?.....I know this is a fix for a splinter but how far along do you normally have your starting tiller before you sinew?... i.e is the bow usually full weight at full draw length when you sinew?..... Terry
A true Craftsman does not blame the materials he works with for his failures but rather his lack of skill..
mechslasherWed Jan-28-04 11:21 AM
Member since Apr 21st 2003 168 posts
#57811, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..."
this bow sounds like the bow i've been emailing you about except mine broke across first ring on the back and took some of the second. i have several questions because i am planning on sinewing my bow in hopes of saving it. this will be the first bow i sinewed and here are several questions i am wondering about and wanting to make sure i understand:
1. aside from the obvious reason of saving sinew and reducing weight, on the first course of sinew why not cover the grip area?
2. does only courses 1 and 2 cover the entire back of the bow? how far do you go over the edges?
3. is course 2 the only layer that cover the entire width and length of the bow?
4. the last 3-4" of limb below the bend only has sinew down the center. is the reason for this to cut down on weight and will you wrap this area after tillering?
cade(sc)
There is beauty and magic in a drawn bow.
OldBowWed Jan-28-04 01:02 PM
Member since Oct 21st 2002 1130 posts
#57816, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..."
Marc, thanks a lot.
It takes a lot of time to do the images and the posts. There are always sinew questions on this forum and your pictoral lesson here is the most helpful yet.
Marc St LouisWed Jan-28-04 08:29 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#57839, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #10
Well guys. I'm only gonna answer a couple of questions and maybe post a couple more pics for tonight. I feel like sh1t that's been stepped on several times.
First of all I wanted to mention that with white woods all I do for prepping the wood for sinewing is a light sanding then scoring with a hacksaw blade. I've found that's all you need to do.
Physh. The sinew ranged in length from 8" for the Deer and up to 14" for the Moose. There is a place that sells Moose leg tendons on-line, I can't remember the name off hand.
Pat. You could shorten that bow quite a bit if you want to.
JD. It's been a few years since I've made one of these, I'm a bit out of practice.
Terry. I usually just floor tiller before sinewing but this bow had been tillered out to 26".
Cade. Sinew is wasted on a stiff handled bow, it performs no function. I sinew right to the edge of the limb. The first course of sinew starts at will be the fades and covers the entire limb edge to edge up to about 4" from the base of the recurves. This is where most of the work will be done by the limbs. The next course starts from the center of the handle and goes right up to the base of the recurve but does not go to the edges of the limbs. Very little work is being done by the outer limbs and no work is done by the recurves therefore they need very little sinew.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
Marc St LouisWed Jan-28-04 09:09 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#57844, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #11
Now that the sinew is dry and cured for awhile I start by working the limbs a bit. I do this by clamping the bow in my wood vise sideways like this. You'll notice that I leave my handles full width, this is quite usefull for clamping a bow in a vice..
I then grab the tip and push, flexing the limbs and keeping an eye on the limb to see how it bends. I do this several times with each limb checking to see how they bend and removing wood if I see any flat spots and making sure there are no hinges. I then use my long string and my T stick( close your eyes here George ) to get the limbs balanced up to brace height. Here she is tillered to brace height.
Time to brace the bow. I use this device that I made specifically for bracing highly reflexed bows for this.
And here she is braced and ready to finish tillering.
Once again if you have any questions fire away
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
indybowWed Jan-28-04 10:23 PM
Member since Jan 13th 2002 362 posts
#57854, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #12
Great build along, Marc. I was wondering how you braced those bows!! Mike
Pat BWed Jan-28-04 10:41 PM
Member since Dec 12th 2002 1064 posts
#57856, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #13
Yeh! that bracing gig is OK!!! And thanks for the sinew tutoral you sent Chris Cade. I'm getting closer to starting. Pat
ps. As always Marc, great bow!
aaron webster (Guest)Wed Jan-28-04 11:28 PM
#57861, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #14
yeah, i'm wondering how you brace these bows too, i'v got a similar stave going , that is with lots of reflex , and am just getting to the point where i want switch from the long tillering string to the right length string. I
badger5149Thu Jan-29-04 08:40 AM
Member since Nov 28th 2003 254 posts
#57885, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #15
Really impressed Mark, great informative build along, I imagine that bow will really hold the reflex. I cant tell you how many bows I have recurved that simply took a lot of set and the tips ended up dead even with the back. Been doing better lately a lot of thanks to you. Badger
when I finally get it perfect I will quit
Marc St LouisThu Jan-29-04 08:56 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#57934, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #16
Wow 10 minutes to load. Maybe I should have sacrificed detail for quicker load time . I'll fix that.
Now that the bow is braced tillering becomes easier. What I like to do is get a good profile early on and not worry about draw weight. Once I have the bow tillered out to a few inches of draw then I’ll check the draw weight. Here the bow is tillered out to 16”.
The bow has a 1/8” positive tiller as it is, the limb at the left is the designated top limb. Here is an unbraced profile of the bow. As it is it has lost 1” of tip backset
And here I have the bow up to 19"
The string was not tracking straight down the recurves so I took the time to heat straighten them here. I did this by clamping the bow at the handle in my vice then using my heat gun I heated the belly of the bow right at the base of the recurves while twisting the tips over in the direction they needed to go by hand. A couple of minutes each and the string was tracking right down the center of the recurves.
Here is the bow tillered to 21" and pulling 47#. I'm looking for 55# to 60# @ 28 so she should do this easily.
At this point she has lost 2 1/2" of backset but it quickly regains another 3/4" of backset.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
badger5149Thu Jan-29-04 09:06 PM
Member since Nov 28th 2003 254 posts
#57935, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #17
Great pictorial and explanations, Holding a lot of back set for that weight of bow! Just out of curiosity how much backset do you anticipate you will maintain, kind of a dumb irrelavent question, but........Great Job, Badger
when I finally get it perfect I will quit
DCM_ (Guest)Thu Jan-29-04 09:49 PM
#57940, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..."
Real fine build along Marc. The pics are just dandy boy. Thanks.
zioalbyFri Jan-30-04 09:41 AM
Charter member 3029 posts
#57973, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #19 Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 09:43 AM by zioalby
Marc... I just want to know when this thread is ended... So I can save it! It is very nice to see the way you're working. And you are very tidy too ! I love your bracing jig. Much better than a tillering string. Alberto
Marc St LouisFri Jan-30-04 06:33 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58014, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #20
Steve. Much better to be surprised , but I expect at least 7".
David. Thanks. Fist time I do a build along. It's a lot of work. I wanted to have the pics large enough to be able to keep some detail.
Alberto. I am very tidy aren't I . My bracing jig is also safer. As to it's ending. Well as you know you can't rush these things.
Here’s a couple more pics for tonight. The first one is a braced pic of the bow tillered to 24” of draw and the second pic is drawn to 24”. At that draw length she is pulling 53#. Unbracing the bow and measuring the backset bring it in at 6 ½”. After 10 minutes she regains another 1” of backset, in 30 minutes the backset is up to 8”.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
Marc St LouisSun Feb-01-04 06:37 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58173, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #21
Here is the last of the tillering pics. The bow is tillered to 28" where it pulls 59#. The finished backset came in at 7.5", should make the bow pretty quick. The first pic is tillered to 26"
And here she is at 28" of draw
This last picture shows the backset that she has kept
Now all I have to do is shape the handle and finish it up and do the same to the tips. Then round the edges off the limbs and a finish sanding, I've already done some sanding on them. For a finish I may do a French type finish.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
Marc St LouisThu Feb-05-04 09:16 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58588, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #22
I took a break from this one for a few days, gave me and the limbs a rest. Anyway I started to finish up the tips and turned them from this
to this
and this
I decided to add an overlay as well. For the overlay I used some flat pieces of Moose hooves shaped and glued in with Fish glue. Here's what they look like.
I also started shaping the handle, here it is roughed out.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
PhyshThu Feb-05-04 10:24 PM
Member since Sep 01st 2003 715 posts
#58596, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #23 Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 10:26 PM by Physh
Im sorry if its too much trouble, but can you like kinda start from the beginning where you recruve the tips and reflex the bow, to me it seems like the hardest part. Thanks, i really appreciate the buildalong. Hope it turns out good.
And you said you used hoof for the tips, can i go to petsmart and get one of thoes dogchew hoofs for overlays? I might be able to put "horn" arrow passes on my bows! Saying its impossible means you have already given up.
Pat BFri Feb-06-04 10:34 PM
Member since Dec 12th 2002 1064 posts
#58700, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #24
Physh, I've used hooves from petsmart before and they work well. Don't get the flavored ones, though. I think the ones I got were pig and about $ .50 each. You ought to be able to get 2 or 3 sets of overlays frpom each hoof. Pat
GeorgeTsoukalasFri Feb-06-04 07:27 PM
Charter member 3154 posts
#58684, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #20
Lookin' good, Marc. You da man. Except for the part where you told me to close my eyes. Didn't see a thing. Jawge
bannerstoneFri Feb-06-04 08:21 AM
Member since Feb 06th 2004 9 posts
#58613, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..."
Hello, My Name is Diane From winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
I have been lurking here for a while and I must say this place rocks. I am working on my 3rd self bow, 1st one came out a 32# at 28, 2nd one broke 6inches from nock in tillering, and the 3rd well it's a red oak board bow 62.5 ntn I was thinking of sinew backing but didn't quite Know how. Thank You very Much Marc I have the tools of knowlege to attempt it now.
By the way does anyone know the spot to fasten the bannerstone on an atatl? Diane Straight as an arrow.
Marc St LouisFri Feb-06-04 03:28 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58650, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #25
Physh I will finish this one then start another thread showing how I bend recurves and reflex a selfbow using heat.
For reflexing sinew backed bows I just reverse brace the bow before applying the sinew.
I've never seen hoofs in a store but if you can get them then I'm sure they will work. Hoofs are made of the same material as Horn.
Diane. Glad to see another Canadian interested in making bows. I wouldn't recommend making one of these type bows right now, reflexed recurves that is. If you have questions then just ask away.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
bannerstoneFri Feb-06-04 04:08 PM
Member since Feb 06th 2004 9 posts
#58655, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #26
Ok I have a question I have enough sinew to lay down one course can I let that sit till I get more sinew or should I wait till I have enough to do all at once. The recurving part is coming way into the future I need to make and brake a few more bows yet, still learning about wood. The reason I want to sinew,this bow started out as a 68 inches but one of the nock ends cracked (My boy swears he didn't do it) so I cut off the injury and equal amount other side so it is shorter than I planned. My Dh thinks I am nuts I have been trying to build a self bow since I was 6yrs old. Ah the first ones Sapling bow, lilac shaft, nail point and pigeon fletch, as fast as I would build them they would go missing I think they were too effective for my mom to handle. Diane Straight as an arrow.
Marc St LouisFri Feb-06-04 06:40 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58678, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #27
I usually apply all my sinew in one go but you can put one course down, finish the bow and shoot it then put more on later if you wish. If you do it this way though you have to make sure you remove all of the finish from the back and prep it or the next course will pop off .
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
Steve Gardner (Guest)Fri Feb-06-04 07:32 PM
#58686, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #28
Very nice Mark, I like that full draw pick, doesn't look strained at all, very well distrubeted. You keep the bar up very high! Badger
PhyshFri Feb-06-04 10:12 PM
Member since Sep 01st 2003 715 posts
#58699, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #30 Edited on Fri Feb-06-04 10:16 PM by Physh
I would cut down to under 60 inchs if i was sinew backing, but for one course it should be fine, sinew is heavy. Post some pics of the bows you have made. They sell hoof here in the US as a dog chew thingy, its a few dollars each, one is prolly enough for a few tips and arrow passes, if only they were thick enough for horn knocks, maybe i could laminate slices? Saying its impossible means you have already given up.
indybowFri Feb-06-04 10:42 PM
Member since Jan 13th 2002 362 posts
#58702, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #31
Great build along, Marc. How wide is that handle??? Looks real narrow. I never thought of using dog chew hooves. Those are real cheap!! Mike
bannerstoneSat Feb-07-04 11:33 AM
Member since Feb 06th 2004 9 posts
#58729, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #33
Thank you Guys You are such great help,I am going to finish the 62.5" ntn without sinew with glue on riser, and I have a under weight bow 32# at 28", 64" ntn bend in handle the starter bow I would like to get it to 40# or higher, How does this sound cut it down to 58" slightly recurve tips and sinew. I have all three of TBBs but they lack a little in info. The woods I am using are red oak. I'll post pictures when I get a camera, Hope I have something to post LOL But the knowledge gained.
Diane Straight as an arrow.
badger5149Sat Feb-07-04 12:52 PM
Member since Nov 28th 2003 254 posts
#58736, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #34
Diane, if you were to cut only an inch and a half of each side and slightly recurve the tips you would probably be right there where you want it. Badger
when I finally get it perfect I will quit
Marc St LouisSat Feb-07-04 06:59 PM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58761, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #35
Steve. I've had to touch up the tiller a couple of times over the week. This is why it's fairly important to let the sinew cure for awhile before tillering, probably even more so with reflexed recurves. I just applied the first coat of finish on the bow a few minutes ago. I decided to go with a mixture of Tung oil and beeswax heated up to disolve the beeswax. The bow has kept almost 8" of backset, after standing for a few hours.
Mike The handle at arrow pass is about 5/8" wide by 1 1/2" deep.
Diane The bendy handle bow can be shortened to 60" and then with the sinew it will easily make 40#. If you feel up to it you could introduce a bit of reflex into the bow by clamping it down at the handle then putting blocks under the tips before applying the sinew, that would give you even more weight. I would skip the recurves for now.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
bannerstoneSun Feb-08-04 05:57 PM
Member since Feb 06th 2004 9 posts
#58855, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #36
Ok I cut the bow down made a little boo boo 59.5" instead of 60" cut new pin nocks strung it and the tiller is off,should I retiller. I am going to reverse string the bow for low reflex about 1.5" using my tillering string then sinew.I found a asian store that has pig guts will those work for bow strings, Haven't found any beef tendons yet, still looking. I am using gelatine for glue.Tip If you are looking for bulk gelatine go to a sausage maker and meat packers supplier, they should have it. Diane Straight as an arrow.
Dave UKSun Feb-08-04 06:12 PM
Member since Oct 05th 2002 491 posts
#58860, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #37
A gem of a post Mark, Thankyou. I guess I know as much now as I can without getting my hands sticky! I understand why you cover the sections of limb length that you do, but not why you vary the width of the different courses. Why would this be better than just covering the whole surface with two or three even layers (which is what I was expecting you to do). Can sinew be hammered into threads well in advance or is it best left as 'sticks' until the last minute? Do you use any chemical degreasingof wood or sinew at all?
And thats a true story, I made it up myself.
PhyshSun Feb-08-04 09:46 PM
Member since Sep 01st 2003 715 posts
#58887, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #38
The tendons are in the frozen section, wait till after you pound to degrease, its kinda hard to before, and you can leave in the fridge to dry it, the frozen stuff smells. Saying its impossible means you have already given up.
Marc St LouisMon Feb-09-04 06:50 AM
Charter member 1431 posts
#58904, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #39
Diane You can wait till after you have sinewed the bow before tillering, you will have to retiller after sinewing anyway. 1.5" shouldn't give you to many headaches. The pig gut will work for strings. You can also find gelatine in bulk food stores. If you need some sinew let me know, I have a bit to spare.
Dave Sinew is heavy so I try to minimize it's use so it doesn't weight down the limbs and maximize it's work by laying it down like a cable down the back of the bow. I've always sinewed my bows like this and it seems to work for me. You can pound the sinew before hand, I usually prepare it a day or so before I need it. I don't degrease the sinew from wild animals but cattle sinew needs to be degreased. Also I don't degrease white wood bows. When I do degrease I use lye that I make from wood ashes.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
sandmanFri Feb-13-04 02:33 AM
Member since Jan 02nd 2003 238 posts
#59329, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..." In response to Reply #40
great thread mark i havent been on the site in about a month been real busy . i read in another post that you started a build along thread and right away i started looking for it lol been waiting to see it for a few months now and it was well worth the wait Thanks mark. Sandman
Marc St LouisFri Feb-13-04 06:46 AM
Charter member 1431 posts
#59336, "RE: Sinew Backed Reflexed Recurve Build ..."
Thanks Sandman. For a look at the finished bow see the thread titled Sinbad.
As a pastime it's hard to beat making bows. Marc
