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Traditional English Draw
CraigMBeckett:
Hi Erik,
--- Quote --- BTW; the “two fingered salute” might better be classified as urban myth than legend. I believe soccer hooligans get the credit for that one.
--- End quote ---
It was around a long time before soccer hooligans, as we know them today, so they cannot have the credit for it.
I'm not sure you are correct dismissing the two fingered salute to the French after victory to show that the shooting fingers are still intact as a myth. The French definitely had statutes requiring the removal of fingers from the drawing hands of captured English Archers and one can well imagine the taunts that such a law would elicit from the English victors.
Erik, if you have an English translation of "Le livre du Roy Modus et de la Royne Racio" in electronic format I would appreciate a copy, I only have a French version and my school boy French is not really up to it.
Craig.
bow-toxo:
--- Quote from: CraigMBeckett on August 25, 2010, 04:19:47 am ---Hi Erik,
--- Quote --- BTW; the “two fingered salute” might better be classified as urban myth than legend. I believe soccer hooligans get the credit for that one.
--- End quote ---
It was around a long time before soccer hooligans, as we know them today, so they cannot have the credit for it.
I'm not sure you are correct dismissing the two fingered salute to the French after victory to show that the shooting fingers are still intact as a myth. The French definitely had statutes requiring the removal of fingers from the drawing hands of captured English Archers and one can well imagine the taunts that such a law would elicit from the English victors.
Erik, if you have an English translation of "Le livre du Roy Modus et de la Royne Racio" in electronic format I would appreciate a copy, I only have a French version and my school boy French is not really up to it.
Craig.
--- End quote ---
Please let me know the pre 20th century evidence for the two finger salute as well as French statutes on the subject. My understanding is that English kings warned their archers about Frenchmen or Scots cutting of fingers to give the archers a reason to fight to the death. Actually, archers, not being worth a ransom, would probably be killed if captured anyway. Sorry, I don’t have a copy of Roi Modus but I would appreciate seeing the French description of the bows if you could send it. My daughter is fluently bi-lingual.
Cheers,
Erik
CraigMBeckett:
Hi Erik
Re Roi Modus, I thought you had a copy as you quote it regularly both here and on other pages of the net. There are numerous copies freely available on the net including one from Google books, see http://www.google.com/books?id=gZ4OAAAAQAAJ.
Craig
CraigMBeckett:
--- Quote ---Please let me know the pre 20th century evidence for the two finger salute as well as French statutes on the subject
--- End quote ---
Erik I quote from Wikipedia
--- Quote ---Origins
An early recorded use of the 'two-fingered salute' is in the Macclesfield Psalter of c.1330 (in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge), being made by a glove in the Psalter’s marginalia.[5]
According to a popular legend the two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestures of longbowmen fighting in the English army at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War.[5][15] The story claims that the French claimed that they would cut off the arrow-shooting fingers of all the English and Welsh longbowmen after they had won the battle at Agincourt.[16] But the English came out victorious and showed off their two fingers, still intact. Historian Juliet Barker quotes Jean Le Fevre (who fought on the English side at Agincourt) as saying that Henry V included a reference to the French cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle speech.[17] If this is correct it confirms that the story was around at the time of Agincourt, although it doesn't necessarily mean that the French practised it, just that Henry found it useful for propaganda, and it does not show that the 'two-fingers salute' is derived from the hypothetical behaviour of English archers at that battle.
The first definitive known reference to the ‘V-sign’ in French is in the works of François Rabelais, a sixteenth-century satirist.[18]
It was not until the start of the 20th century that clear evidence of the use of insulting V sign in England became available, when in 1901 a worker outside Parkgate ironworks in Rotherham used the gesture, (captured on the film), to indicate he did not like being filmed.[19] Peter Opie interviewed children in the 1950s and observed in The Lore And Language Of Schoolchildren that the much older thumbing of the nose (cock-a-snook) had been replaced by the V-sign as the most common insulting gesture used in the playground.[10]
Desmond Morris discussed various possible origins of the V sign in Gestures: Their Origins and Distribution, (published 1979) and came to no definite conclusion:
because of the strong taboo associated with the gesture (its public use has often been heavily penalized). As a result, there is a tendency to shy away from discussing it in detail. It is "known to be dirty" and is passed on from generation to generation by people who simply accept it as a recognized obscenity without bothering to analyse it... Several of the rival claims are equally appealing. The truth is that we will probably never know...
—Desmond Morris[10]
--- End quote ---
I it therefore was in use in 1330, I doubt soccer hooligans were around then.
If used in 1901 by a worker outside Parkgate ironworks in Rotherham the gesture is highly unlikely to have been invented then.
jkekoni:
✌✌ The were hooliganism related to chariot racing in byzantine. So football riots predate football.✌✌
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_racing
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