Author Topic: What is "Warbow"  (Read 99828 times)

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Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2007, 11:18:42 am »
HHB will make a good war bow as well
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duffontap

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2007, 02:06:50 pm »
Marc,

I was thinking the same about crabapple and a couple other woods.  Oregon crabapple sinks like a rock in water and it doesn't follow the string.  My OC bow is 69" ntn and 1 1/2" wide and it draws 95-100# at 30" and I've drawn it many times at that length or longer.  It still has zero string follow.  The tiller is too stiff in the tips for a warbow but I was only tillering it for my 27" draw.  In hindsite it's way overbuilt for how strong OC is.  I just didn't know it at the time.  I'm going to try a narrower/longer design soon. 

(This is not a warbow.  I am posting this as a suggestion for another whitewood capable of being made into the warbow design). 

          J. D. Duff




Offline ChrisD

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2007, 05:06:50 pm »
Actually I think the woods are irrelevant - If the materials were available to medieval bowyers , they would have used em and that means that any wood that can make a 'warbow' should be fair game. There are other reasons for adopting this approach e.g good bow woods can be hard to find and confining archers to 'hard to get' materials simply excludes many people. Another problem with sticking to the 'self yew' only argument is the liklihood that the genuine yew medival warbow was designed as a short life item which was only expected to provide top performance for perhaps 1 battle - perhaps less. That would make it veeeery expensive to run a 'I only use yew' philosophy. So, crab apple, osage, backed yew, multi laminates - why not?


Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2007, 05:55:10 pm »
Interesting points Chris,
Welcome to the forum :)
Do you think that the expendable nature of the warbow was due to archers hastily discarding ranged weapons (IE the bow) when they closed with the enemy in hand-to-hand combat?  Or an apparent lack of  longevity inherently in yew wood? If the latter it's not a conclusion my personal experience has led me to believe, if well looked after.  Throwing a yew bow on the floor it the heart of a medieval would, however, considerably shorten its life.  What is the evidence that leads you to think that yew warbows would last less than a single battle?  Contemporary legislation was very tough on sub-standard workmanship and materials.  Bowyers were prohibited from working after dark on pain of high fines and stringers had to suffer the the punishment of hemp strings burnt under their nose for shoddiness. 
The historical validity of white woods is well documented and covered thoroughly in this thread already, so I will not reiterate (and backed yew for that matter). 
The "They would have used it if available" argument really boils down to a point of view in the end.  I suppose it can be used to justify just about anything but what we do have a good idea of is what the English warbow really was in history.

Cheers,
Jeremy 

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2007, 06:04:36 pm »
I would think a good Yew bow would last through a rather long campain--even a couple of years.  I'm not sure by any means.  Has anyone read anything on the longevity of warbows?

A Yew hunting bow of 90#s could last 20-30 years (or more) of hunting if it was properly cared for.  I don't know why warbows would be discarded so quickly as every battle.

           J. D. Duff

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2007, 06:14:39 pm »
I'm still of the opinnion that you should build and use what you like. If you are trying to exactly duplicate a warbow of the erra then you need to use one of the woods used back then. If you just want a bow to shoot then make it of any material you like and have fun. In my book if it follows that same design of a warbow from the erra its a warbow but not an exact replica of the originals.

Have fun with it and enjoy the sport!

David T
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Offline ChrisD

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2007, 06:24:30 pm »
Well, with regards to the short lifespan of a yew bow - there are several skeins of 'evidence' to draw on.

The first is simply to look at the sheer numbers of yew staves imported to England during the period.There are details of quite literally millions of staves imported by a single Hanse merchant family over a twenty year period. When you consider that the bow using population wasn't exactly that big and that there were incredible numbers of staves being imported, it tends to lead to the conclusion that they didn't last all that long.

Secondly, bows having a short life makes perfect sense in the context of fixing the price of bows at very affordable levels. If they lasted ages, it woyldn't have been deemed so necessary. If people needed to replace them often - especially being poorer folk, you'd have to fix the price.

Finally, I own a couple of these things. One of them starts the day at 86lb at 30 inches and very quickly loses weight after a few shots. Given the nature of softwoods, that can be expected to be the pattern with any self yew bow of high draw weight after a fairly short time. I know it offends the egos of those who use very high weight bows, but the fact is that most will have lost a good percentage of weight at the end of a days shooting and that tendency will worsen as weight goes up and the wood is stressed more and also as the age of the bow goes up.

Yes I do think that archers discarded bows in the hand to hand phase, and maybe tied a dagger to them to improvise a pig sticker. But thats only guessing.

J.D. - yes indeed - what was a warbow? For example,  I've never heard of anyone using a hemp or linen string of 1/8in diameter in a 110lb plus bow - but then I'm one of those sceptics who reckons that they were a lot lighter than some think.

ChrisD

duffontap

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2007, 06:40:17 pm »
Chris,

Some very good points.  One thing you have to deal with on the 'lower weight' position is that bows like mine are made from inferior Yew and are smaller than the Mary Rose bows and yet have draw weights of 110#s or more.  I haven't yet seen a war bow made similar to the Mary Rose specs out of quality Yew that hasn't come out well over 100#s. 

As for the 'natural strings are too weak' theory that Pip proposes, there are people right now using linen strings on 120# bows without problems.  A 1/8" string is larger than it needs to be for adequate strength from what I've been hearing.  Pip put out a book saying natural strings weren't strong enough for bows much over 100#s and all of a sudden people start testing his theory and finding linen plenty strong enough for heavy bows. 

As for a bow droping weight, I weigh my bows after they've been warmed up.  All wood bows will draw a little heavier cold so we expect that.  If your bow lost a pound of draw weight every time you shot it--that would be a problem but I haven't experienced that with any of my yew bows. 

                J. D. Duff

Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2007, 07:05:28 pm »
Secondly, bows having a short life makes perfect sense in the context of fixing the price of bows at very affordable levels. If they lasted ages, it woyldn't have been deemed so necessary. If people needed to replace them often - especially being poorer folk, you'd have to fix the price.
Yew bows were expendable, yes.  Back then, so were bowmen. 
I don't think they were as widely spread and easy to come by as all that.  The crown stockpiled huge numbers for military use.  However,  as you know, there were also edicts issued to preserve a precious resource. At times bowyers were commanded to make more whitewood bows than those of yew and youths (unless noble born) were also prohibited from having yew bows.
J

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2007, 07:08:11 pm »
JD- Those bow strings of linnen and hemp where they made from reverse twist all the way like a rope or like a modern flemish string with one loop on one end and then the strands twisted tight?
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2007, 07:39:15 pm »
We use linen strings on bows 100# all the time. My buddy just made heavy bow 105#, it casts standart arrow 245 yrds or slightly more (glued bow) and he has linen string on it. He is also shooting rather alot, but linen string on his 100# "nuclear ash"  single staev bow, which shoots around 220 yrds with standart holds since christmas and there is not significant wear apart of whipping, which can be repaired regulary.

If a bow loses weight significantly over period of shooting its badly done and not worth a dime.

The theory of "lighter than most people think" does colide head on with historical shot record, especially with recorded distances in Tudor archery and with weight of arrows which is known.

Again - well known law of Henry VIII. says something like this:  "Item that no man shoots flighting or prickling arrow at any mark shorter than 240 yrds" (Reworded, exactly in Hugh Soar "Of bowmen and battles") which does not mean that they did not shot any shorter ranges, but heavy military arrow was required for them and that means  3-4 oz. Shooting light 2 oz arrow which is more appropriate for a bow of say 80# was only permited at marks longer than 240 yrds (which on the other hand is not doable with 2 oz arrow and 75-80#.

Later 1542 act says that a man over 24 years of age shall not shoot any marks shorter than 220 yrds. (Hardy+Strickland)

This is all clearly intended to preserve older tradition of shooting heavy bows and its not well doeable with 75# or similar weight.

Also the price of bows, particulary in comparition to archer day pay or even more stricking - to a craftsman day pay,  is rather high and that shows it was not thow away item. I dont know what do you mean by "bows being short lived", but surelly a good bow has decent longevity and it can have 100 000 arows through it and still shoot reasonably. Military campaign was hard, but if your life depended on the weapon, sure you would pamper it?

There is zero evidence of archers using longbow with tied on dagger, I think its pure nonsense, they were relativelly well armed after all and no list of secondary archer weapons mentions such a provisorium.
Bows were eventually laid aside in "hand on phassis", but that does not mean they were not collected after that and also the english battle logistic was efficient in every point. Long marching campaigns in France did not often allowed for resupply even if arranged for.

You stress well "if it was availble to them" point. But even further - exotic woods became little more widelly imported perhaps at the end of 16. century when military archery was declined.

So self yew, self elm, self ash, perhaps yew backed yew  is alright (as laminating yew on yew) does seem to start exactly the mment when good staves became scarce in 16. century. But there is no single such bow. (There is one from 17. and one from 18 century in archery hall in edinburg. (And these are lighter weapons of scotish origins made of yew backed with ash.)
Howewer there is zero evidence aside of ascham lamentation on pieced bows, by which he does thinks a repair of bad stave (such as scarf joint repair on one of MR bows.) There is written account of laminating bows from early 16. century, but that is continental, not english.

I cannot think of reason why a multilaminate out of exotic hardwoods or osage shall be called warbow, since its not one. Actually if made to originall shape, taper, tiler and measuremenst it does not work. These must be made different way.


J.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 08:04:08 pm by sagitarius boemoru »

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2007, 08:32:43 pm »
So self yew, self elm, self ash, perhaps yew backed yew  is alright (as laminating yew on yew) does seem to start exactly the mment when good staves became scarce in 16. century.
J.


Jaro, I appreciate your pure English Warbow philosophy. But like you said it began at the moment when good staves became scarce.  For most of us they are not only scarce, but non existant.  Should we deny the existence of them and not read about them or try to make them because we cannot get the wood?

I don't want to get nit picky, but I think it is ironic that you want to keep the English Warbow pure. You get upset when others call them warbows and they don't comply to English Warbow standards, but you keep referring to it as Warbow.  There are other bows are Warbows that are not English Warbows. If you feel the need to keep it to pure English Warbow production, you should take the time to call them English Warbows, or lighten up on others not using exact terminology or dimensions or wood.  Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


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Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2007, 08:35:07 pm »
Build what you like call it what you like. Are we not here first and foremost to enjoy the building and shooting of bows designed like those of old? Have fun and enjoy it!
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

jb.68

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2007, 09:41:58 pm »
Ok, anybody here actually intending to go into battle with their bow? If not, it aint a warbow, it's a replica warbow, whether it's yew or laminated.

I have to agree with Mr Tiller just make 'em and enjoy 'em.  ;)

duffontap

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Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2007, 10:24:29 pm »
In all fairness, we all enjoy the subject of English Warbows, but there is a big difference in the degree of personal investment from member to member.  Some of us want to 'build 'em and enjoy 'em,' and others will invest years of their lives researching and recording data.  If Jaro, or Stratton, or Stretton don't want to take a carefree 'whatever' attitude toward this subject like Dave or others want to, perhaps that's because their personal involvement goes far beyond 'hobby.'

             J. D. Duff