Main Discussion Area > English Warbow
Longbow Tech Question
CraigMBeckett:
--- Quote from: Prarie Bowyer on August 20, 2011, 03:51:53 am ---Why such long thin tapers and sharp tips if recurves were not employed? Is it not plausible despite no surviving example?
--- End quote ---
Because "long thin tapers and sharp tips" are basic good design removing mass from where it would most impact upon performance. Such design has nothing to do with recurves.
As for plausible, it depends on your definition but virtually anything is apparently valid until definitely proven otherwise, so plausible yes, but based on the historical evidence, probable, no.
By the way, very few eucalypt species, (and there are over 700), are suitable for making ELBs and such thin highly stressed bows. Nor are most ranked as decent heat bending woods.
Craig.
bow-toxo:
--- Quote from: CraigMBeckett on August 21, 2011, 10:40:30 pm ---Burgundian bows at that time was recognized, which you seem to agree with. I am sure that many would disagree. Some may even be correct.
--- End quote ---
I do have a translation of Lartdarcherie ir "The Art of Archery and the book is silent as to any bow length as it is to there being any such thing as a small bow however you like to spell it.
While I do not exactly have a translation of Le Livre de Chasse by Gaston Phébus I do have a copy of Master og Game, by Edward, second Duke of York, which is reputed to essentially be an English translation of Le Livre de Chasse but minus some chapters , the subjects of which were not animals found in England. As far as I am aware it contains nothing on bow length. But as it is an incomplete translation the original "Le Livre de Chasse" may have such a content. Can you therefore copy the section you say has the instructions so that I can see what it actually says? Does it actually refer to a short-bow as a separate weapon or are you assuming that any bow that does not measure up to the stated length is not a long bow so it must be a short bow. In addition does it instruct on the heat bending/forming as you suggest in your earlier post?
I would also suggest that using points on peoples bodies to decide what are or are not long bows is a flawed process, in imperial measurements I stand about 5' 8", or 68", so by your reckoning a 68 inch bow would be a long bow, yet one of my friends stands at about 6' 4" or is it 6' 6" so a 68 inch bow would , be somewhere below his nose, does this self same bow suddenly stop being a long bow when he picks it up?
Craig.
[/quote]
In one example , Lartdarcherie in ’On the Make of Handbows’ quoting Sexmodus , says ”If you wish your bow to last, its length should be that of two arrow lengths and two small fists [not including the thumb] “ Fgor flight shooting they should only be one hands breadth….longer than the said two arrows length.
In ‘On the Way of Shooting with a Bow”, the author states “According to custom, [implying general use] the archer should draw ten palms breadth of arrow [from nock to shoulder of the head. I get 31 inches].. Some draw more, some less.
As I don’t have access to the other works at this time, I leave the relevant research to you.
Points on people’s bodies were most of mediaeval measurement, such as hand, fist, thumb, fist with outstretched thumb, span, cubit. Sorry you don’t like them.
I suggest your tall friend try one of the mediaeval recipes and see what he gets.
Erik
CraigMBeckett:
--- Quote from: bow-toxo on August 22, 2011, 02:47:11 am ---
In one example , Lartdarcherie in ’On the Make of Handbows’ quoting Sexmodus , says ”If you wish your bow to last, its length should be that of two arrow lengths and two small fists [not including the thumb] “ Fgor flight shooting they should only be one hands breadth….longer than the said two arrows length.
In ‘On the Way of Shooting with a Bow”, the author states “According to custom, [implying general use] the archer should draw ten palms breadth of arrow [from nock to shoulder of the head. I get 31 inches].. Some draw more, some less.
As I don’t have access to the other works at this time, I leave the relevant research to you.
Points on people’s bodies were most of mediaeval measurement, such as hand, fist, thumb, fist with outstretched thumb, span, cubit. Sorry you don’t like them.
I suggest your tall friend try one of the mediaeval recipes and see what he gets.
Erik
--- End quote ---
MMM! if you don't have the books why are you using them to support your argument?
This discussion is about your claim of there being short bows and that the books contain instructions on how to construct them, contained in your post of August 19th and 20th which stated:
--- Quote ---Concerning the pictorial evidence, check the lengths of bows pictured used in battle. Many illustrations show not longbows, but smallbows that were normally heat bent to various curvatures. A longbow [ sorry, not every self bow is a longbow] is at least the length of the archer, or much more. The smallbow, of course using shorter arrows, might reach the archer’s nose.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Craig—I can’t imagine how you could have missed instructions on determining bow and arrow length in Roi Modus, Lartdarcherie and Le Livre de Chasse. Making a smallbow according to the instructions and standing it in front of myself, I can hardly miss noticing how tall it is {to my nose], and that is how short short is.
--- End quote ---
Your quotes from the art of archery has nothing to do with short bows or instructions on the manufacture of the same, or your stated measure of what constitutes a short bow. Sexmodus is talking of safe lengths, not short bows.
If we examine Sexmodus' system we will get the following:
My palm breadth varies from 3 3/8 inches measured across at the base of the little finger, (the pinky to those of you in the US), to 3 7/8 inches near the base of the thumb, the calculation would then claim that I should draw an arrow that is somewhere between 33 3/4 inches and 38 3/4 inches, both of which are preposterous. I am 5' 7.5" to 5.8" taking the smallest calculated arrow length and applying Sexmodus' calculation to this the shortest safe bow length would be 33.75+33.75+3.375" (my small fist seems to measure the same as my palm breadth near the base of the thumb, but I will use the smaller palm breadth measurement of 3 3/8) which equals 70.875" or if you prefer 70 7/8 inches. Now your claim of a small bow reaching the archer's nose would on me put the bow at approximately 61 1/4 inches long, (measured by my wife), Sexmodus' method says it should be as a minimum 9 5/8" longer so how do the two excerpts from "The Art " reconcile with the short bow claim?
As you can gather, in height, I am not a big man, (other dimensions are different including alas my abdominal measurement), but I am told my hands are large, so lets take a look at my wife, she is 5' 6" tall and here palm's breadth is 3 inches across, measured as mine was at the base of the little finger, thus the calculations say her arrows should be 30 inches long an her bow should be 66 inches long which is her height not the underside of the nose which is some 6 inches lower. So even with her the measurements are for a bow that far exceeds the distance from the ground to the the underside of her nose.
So Once again there is nothing in "the Art of Archery that would support you claim of both the use of and directions to manufacture short bows.
WRT points on people’s bodies being used for medieval measurement, I know that such were used, but your usage of the under-nose measurement is the one in question, my question regarding a 68" bow still remains unanswered.
Craig.
bow-toxo:
Craig I don’t have the books because I really can’t afford to buy the hundreds of books I had access to via interlibrary loan, and I have moved enough to make their transportation impractical. I take notes. The one I quoted is of course a longbow, as is the Roi Modus recipe which are examples of bow length instructions whose existence you questioned. The smallbow dimensions are in Le Livre de Chasse. My mention of my smallbow reaching to my nose is not an instruction, just a description. A longbow is a bow that is long, long enough to take an arrow at least long enough to draw to the ear. Any disagreement ? You don’t have to measure your hand. You grasp one end of your shaft blank , press your other fist down on it, and continue til 10 fists { for longbow arrows]. RE heat bending, if you know any other way to put a desired bend into a bow, please inform me. Perhaps we should make an effort not to bore readers.
CraigMBeckett:
Erik
--- Quote ---The one I quoted is of course a longbow, as is the Roi Modus recipe which are examples of bow length instructions whose existence you questioned. The smallbow dimensions are in Le Livre de Chasse.
--- End quote ---
While I said that I do not have English Translations of these I do actually have or have access to copies both in old French and with modern French transcripts, now as you say you have taken notes then please share the information in your notes I would like to find the exact excerpts that take of small bows/short bows and how to make them.
--- Quote ---You don’t have to measure your hand. You grasp one end of your shaft blank , press your other fist down on it, and continue til 10 fists { for longbow arrows]
--- End quote ---
But only if one has access to a suitably long shaft to do these 10 fists upon.
I have now got such a shaft from my garage/shed and the news is not good for your proclaimed method, the result is that my 10 fists produce an a length of 38 7/16 inches, and before you ask I made sure my thumb had nothing to do with the measurement pressing the lower part of each fist, that bit nearest to the little finger down on the area formed by my index finger.
This by Sexmodus' method my bow should be a minimum of 76 7/8 inches which is way above my head. As an aside I tried the system on a tall colleague, the results were such that the required bow was only slightly shorter that his height. So I would suggest that the method does not work, although the twice arrow length plus something is a pretty standard method employed by most bowyers.
--- Quote ---A longbow is a bow that is long, long enough to take an arrow at least long enough to draw to the ear. Any disagreement ?
--- End quote ---
Yes actually, a longbow ids a bow that is long not short, which means that my bows that are designed for 28 inch arrows are longbows, although they are shorter bow that those designed to shoot 32inch arrows, I also do not subscribe to the British claim that the bow has to be of a certain shape and that flatbows are not longbows.
--- Quote ---RE heat bending, if you know any other way to put a desired bend into a bow, please inform me
--- End quote ---
Erik, the point was not the method which we know works but your statement as to that was the way they were made, once again you use absolutes when they are only assumptions. Or can you infact actually point to directions that tell you how to bend wood to form your claimed short bows or any other bow?
That aside there are other methods of achieving the desired shape:
1, Grow the wood to that shape by using forms on the live tree,
2, Select naturally bent shapes;
3, Bend over forms while green and allow to dry and season whilst bent to shape;
4, laminate the wood gluing the shape in as one goes, animal glues are eminently suitable for this, it is after all what the Eastern bowyers did and do with their bows.
Craig.
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