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English longbows can be tough!
Badger:
I finished one today, great little shooter, held profile nicely, performance is right up there, and best of all I finaly got the handshock out of my elbs, BUT!!! The tiller, I am embarrassed to post it! I keep hitting target draw weight on these things before I am done tillering! I will try and post it tomorrow morning anyway. Steve
Hillbilly:
JD, not necessarily disagreeing with you on the D bows thread, just saying that the vast majority of D bows are not English longbows, nor are/were they neccessarily tillered like one, nor do they have to be to be efficient and effective weapons. If you want to make a true replica English longbow, that's one thing. If you are trying to follow the spirit of an Eastern Woodlands Indian flatbow (or South American, or African, or Papuan, or any number of other D bow styles) why should you try to tiller it like an ELB when it ain't one? Most of these styles of D bows were in use and keeping people fed and defended long before the ELB ever came along. The people of Northern and central Europe also used D bows that weren't ELB's for thousands of years. Oetzi the ice man was carrying one. What I disagree with is the attitude that English Long Bows are somehow inherently superior to other types of bows, and that everyone else should look to the ELB as the shining pinnacle of bowyership, as if it's the only real and true bow design in the world (plus it probably needs to pull at least a couple hundred pounds or more to be a real bow lol). Not saying that you yourself said or implied this, but it's a common attitude found in archery literature for the last century and a half. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with ELBs, either-I like them and hope to make a couple more in the future, but variety is the spice of life.
Dane:
It's funny, I got into this bow making thing because I wanted an ELB, but the prices were crazy expensive. And I quickly found out there are so many other designs and way not enough time. I also would want to shoot my bows, so 110 pounds seems counter productive except to see if I can make one that powerful. The war bow guys do some splendid work (that includes JD of course), but the Asiatic composite seems the ultimate bow to me at the moment (and my core is just about ready finally so I can begin work on the horn!). I doubt I will ever get tired of the prehistoric bows, also.
George Tsoukalas:
Yes, ELB's are a difficult tiller. Not all ELB's are D bows and not all D bows are ELB's though. I like my bows 62-66 in so I don't like the length needed for an ELB. :) Jawge
duffontap:
--- Quote from: Hillbilly on June 27, 2007, 06:12:51 pm ---JD, not necessarily disagreeing with you on the D bows thread, just saying that the vast majority of D bows are not English longbows, nor are/were they necessarily tillered like one, nor do they have to be to be efficient and effective weapons. If you want to make a true replica English longbow, that's one thing. If you are trying to follow the spirit of an Eastern Woodlands Indian flatbow (or South American, or African, or Papuan, or any number of other D bow styles) why should you try to tiller it like an ELB when it ain't one? Most of these styles of D bows were in use and keeping people fed and defended long before the ELB ever came along. The people of Northern and central Europe also used D bows that weren't ELB's for thousands of years. Oetzi the ice man was carrying one. What I disagree with is the attitude that English Long Bows are somehow inherently superior to other types of bows, and that everyone else should look to the ELB as the shining pinnacle of bowyership, as if it's the only real and true bow design in the world (plus it probably needs to pull at least a couple hundred pounds or more to be a real bow lol). Not saying that you yourself said or implied this, but it's a common attitude found in archery literature for the last century and a half. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with ELBs, either-I like them and hope to make a couple more in the future, but variety is the spice of life.
--- End quote ---
I understand you there Hillbilly. I certianly wasn't taking offense at any of your comments. I over-complicated my argument by introducing the topic of English designs. I used them as an example because I know more about them than other 'D' designs. I had two basic arguments for why it's hard to tiller 'D' bows; they are:
First, seeing, judging and controlling the bend on a long piece of wood is harder than on a short piece of wood. Elliptical bows have 12"+ of stiff handle and another 12-20" of stiff tips. That leaves you with much less bending wood to focus your attention on.
Second, a bow that has perfectly circular tiller at 24" will be round in the handle at 28." With a circular tiller the bend progresses into the handle so those who are trying to get their bows looking/acting a certain way will need predict how this tiller will evolve through the draw. That's just a confusing way of saying the biggest mistake bowyers will make while trying to achieve circular tiller is getting a bow that bends too much in the handle.
As far as your comments about the English designs, I understand that there was a historic preoccupation with English styles during the golden age of American archery, but I don't I really see it so much anymore. Osage and hickory flatbows dominate the scene and most of the English styled bows posted on this site follow the English recipe rather casually. I'll admit that I have a bit of 'the English disease' that Saxton Pope and others had. I need to educate myself more on Native American archery for sure so I can compare these two worlds of archery more evenhandedly. But, I am perplexed with the short-bow obsession of some people in light of sacrifices one has to make in cast and accuracy to shoot such weapons. In terms of power and accuracy, English longbows are pretty brilliant. They can send 1,400 grain arrows out at 190 fps, they can stack arrow after arrow into a 9" gold at 100 yards, and they can down lots of the king's deer for the merry men. ;D The English designs developed out of heavily-funded, organized military development and the result is something simple, refined and rather special.
J. D. Duff
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