Author Topic: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...  (Read 122818 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline osage outlaw

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,952
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #240 on: November 29, 2012, 08:15:42 pm »
"OO, The volume was less but the amount of wood (cellulose, lignin) was the same. "

How do you know that?  Just because you say its so doesn't make it right.  I need proof  ;D

Why not make a 60" long, 50#@28" bend through the handle bow out of osage and out of a couple of different white woods using whatever dimensions to maximize the woods potential.  All having the same tiller.  Then cut an inch off of each bow and keep draw it to 28" again.  Record weight and set.  Keep reducing an inch at a time until they break.  I would be curious to see the results no matter what they are.
I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left

blackhawk

  • Guest
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #241 on: November 29, 2012, 08:26:26 pm »
I don't have to give you a "classroom" scientific explanation...I and many others have given you our real world experiences because we use our bows what they were made to do,and you do not. This discussion is going to go on for a long time untill you gain some real world experiences and use a bow for what it was invented for. And what I've learned in life experiences are most the time a more important lesson then some classroom explanation. I caught you contradicting yourself here with the mass theory argument and you can't admit it. According to you mine and Danny's bows were designed wrong and right...so which is it?

If you ever do start to use a bow for what it was invented for you will understand better. Now some guys with lots of experience will try and still say a red oak board is the same as an osage stave,but the majority of guys who have gone thru the use of using many different woods come to the same conclusion as me that in the real world uses osage is the choice for many. Even guys that say all woods are same if designed accordingly will grab and depend on a stick of hedge when its time to go to the battlefield.

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #242 on: November 29, 2012, 08:27:53 pm »
OO, I guess there was less wood in the osage. The reason it weighed the same is because of the extra magic in the limbs. That would be interesting to see. If all bows are built perfectly, then theoretically the thickness is just enough to not take much set in the initial build. Cutting an inch off each tip would put more stress on the remaining wood and tiller would most likely be off. My guess is, tension strong woods like hickory would take massive set before breaking. The only reason I think osage would break earlier is because it's more well balanced in tension and compression, if I'm not mistaken.

Scott D, I'll give you the chance to reread your last post and think about what you said. Don't make me get Badger in here.  >:D

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #243 on: November 29, 2012, 08:33:29 pm »
Blackhawk, is target shooting not considered a real world use anymore?  ???  Without seeing the bows you and Danny made, no one on here including me, knows for sure whether or not your bows were built properly according to the mass principle. The fact of the matter is that they broke and properly designed bows don't break. Your first person experience means nothing if not backed up by more evidence. The properties of wood that I've mentioned have been backed up by evidence and it's been proven time and time again that the mass principle works. The fact that you bring the bows use into this has no impact on the woods ability to make a good bow. If people really wanted to hunt with bows made from other species of wood I'm sure they'd have great success.

blackhawk

  • Guest
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #244 on: November 29, 2012, 08:39:28 pm »


Scott D, I'll give you the chance to reread your last post and think about what you said. Don't make me get Badger in here.  >:D


Badger built nothing but several osage bows when we were at the Tennessee classic..hmmm? Wonder why   >:D

Offline George Tsoukalas

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,425
    • Traditional and Primitive Archers
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #245 on: November 29, 2012, 08:46:51 pm »
Keep up the good work, my friends. This has been a good civil, discussion. I hope it will continue. Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #246 on: November 29, 2012, 08:47:48 pm »
Scott D, You'd have to ask him yourself. The properties of wood that I keep restating are proven, not just by bowyers, but are an understanding of material science. They are facts that we know about wood where you and blackhawk's individual claims mean that wood has particular limits which have no evidence to exist. Both of you still have yet to provide an explanation to your broken bows other than "just because". My poplar bow is an excellent example of how we can change wood dimensionally to get it bending the way we desire.

blackhawk, I do the same thing at MOJam. Its nice to work different woods every once in a while and I bet he doesn't get much osage in Cali.

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #247 on: November 29, 2012, 09:05:38 pm »
Scott D, of course they can but that's not what you or blackhawk are saying. Neither of you have said that your bows broke due to defects or cold or other problems. You've both blamed the wood species which is completely unfounded. Osage is a great bow wood for those reasons but it doesn't necessarily make better bows because of it.

blackhawk

  • Guest
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #248 on: November 29, 2012, 09:06:24 pm »
I hate speaking for someone else...but its because he believes its one of the best,if not the best...

I agree with Scottd...the burden of proof is on you...how can I make you understand my point and reasons when you don't think I'm telling you the truth...I hate having to repeat myself...I have a much better chance of success,consistency,and proven track record making a long lasting real world used bow with osage than I do with using a lot of other woods,and I make all of mine at proper design and mass. Why is that Ryan?

And quit calling that "thing" a bow.

Offline toomanyknots

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,132
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #249 on: November 29, 2012, 09:09:00 pm »
"I have a question for the people that aren't crazy about osage.  Does it grow locally around you? "

Here is a photo of an old growth osage from my main osage spot:



It doesn't look like it in this picture, but it is actually a huge tree. The woods around there are like 50 percent osage. If I wanted, every bow I make could be osage. Although, I never said I wasn't crazy about osage at all. I'm crazy about basically all bow wood. Anyway, I thought I would share some of my own personal thoughts. So, to tastelessly rehash what Mike Keswick, Ryoon, I think George too, and probably a bunch of other people on here might have said in so many words, I will get all crazy and quote a paragraph from the book of five rings:

"In the construction of houses, choice of woods is made. Straight un-knotted timber of good appearance is used for the revealed pillars, straight timber with small defects is used for the inner pillars. Timbers of the finest appearance, even if a little weak, is used for the thresholds, lintels, doors, and sliding doors, and so on. Good strong timber, though it be gnarled and knotted, can always be used discreetly in construction. Timber which is weak or knotted throughout should be used as scaffolding, and later for firewood."

So in other words, if the bow wood is too dense to allow for a brilliant cast, than make the bow shorter. If the Bow wood is very light, than take advantage of it to increase cast. If the wood is not as compression strong, make it wider. If the wood is very compression strong, than take advantage of it by heavily reflexing it, and creating higher early draw weight. I agree with whoever said in this thread that design trumps species. I believe that human innovation has the potential to overcome subtle differences in traits and qualities of bow woods in general, and overcome short falls that this or that species may have, to result in high performance bows of most any of the typical known bow woods. And I don't think that there is any "best" bow wood, (never tried yew, so I might be wrong), but I think even osage has negatives, that you have to work around. Like I said in the other thread, density just don't equal fps. In fact, I get better shooting bows alot of the time out of woods that have been condemned as lesser bow woods. My silver maple longbows shoot 1000 times better than my osage longbows. Mostly because of it's dramaticly light weight when compared to osage. You say that osage takes less mass to make a bow than other woods. But for what you trade in less mass, you gain back in more weight, specifically detrimental outer limb weight, than the other guy would have. So what fps you might gain from a narrower bow, you might just end up losing again due to excessive density? Blackhawk and Pearl, neither of you can truthfully say that osage is the end all of all bow wood when because of it's density, it will make a handshocky sluggish longbow when compared to lighter woods, and even more so in a warbow (in selfbow form in both cases of course). Are longbows not legitimate bows in your guy's worlds? But you know what would make a nice shooting longbow? Basically any fairly light, so - so bow wood. Woods like silver maple will make a nice shooting longbow... silver maple, which would make a horrible flatbow chrysaled to heck and back in the same design of an osage flatbow. Osage does have it's negative qualities like all things in life. It is the responsibility of the bowyer to effectively make use of his bow wood, it is not the responsibility of the wood.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:21:58 pm by toomanyknots »
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline toomanyknots

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,132
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #250 on: November 29, 2012, 09:13:45 pm »
Also, random cool moth. For no reason at all,  ;D:

"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #251 on: November 29, 2012, 09:13:49 pm »
blackhawk, Like I said, well designed bows don't break for no reason and you have yet to provide one other than "just because".

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #252 on: November 29, 2012, 09:21:54 pm »
Scott, Sorry. I grouped you two together and I apologize. You're allowed to like osage. Nothing wrong with that. But when you claim osage is better at certain things you better have backup because it's not about belief. These things are measurable and empirical and the truth doesn't care what you believe.

blackhawk

  • Guest
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #253 on: November 29, 2012, 09:25:06 pm »
Too many...please find a quote from me that says osage is the end all wood....your misunderstanding and misinterpreting what I am saying. If I thought that you would see nothing but osage bows being posted by me. Re read where I said I love making all types of bows from all types of wood.

Ryan that is a fallacy...were using wood,and were human,and both are imperfect,and wood bows break even if properly designed,stored in proper conditions,properly tillered,and executed perfectly,and then properly set in a safe place when finished,used in the right conditions only,and never banged around etc........

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,997
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #254 on: November 29, 2012, 09:38:38 pm »
Scott D, I completely agree. I think we're on the same page just trying to argue different points.

blackhawk, think about what you just said please. Still no reason provided.

Anyone else understand the point I'm trying to make and want to chime in? I think I'm probably not explaining myself well.