Author Topic: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine  (Read 80551 times)

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Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2007, 03:08:26 pm »
Well, Dane, It's the kind of thing I would make if I could.  My wife is a weaver , and I learned to weave and spin proably 50 or more years ago.  The nails will be no problem.  My Email is on my profile, and you canjust send me your address there.  I have made perhaps 500 nails in a day when I was young.  Of course, thosue were all simple nails for a restoration, but the nails are not an imposition, but are a pleasure for me to participate in your project.  I have seen ballista projectile points, and I sort of remember them to be like a bodkin point for a longbow or crossbow bolt.  I think the one I saw was quite corroded and embedded in a human vertebrae! 
     As I said, I am recuperating from surgery, and I have some time important work I need to do when I get back to work, hopefully next week, but I can get them made in the next several weeks I am sure.  The only drawings I currently have of ballistas are in a reprint of a 1900 book, and Payne-Gallwey often made things look as he thought they should.  I see in a different thread that some are worried about bodkin sockets opening up if the shaft does not fit perfectly.  I assume the traditional method, and one that has worked for me, is simply to shape the wood as close as possible, then heat the socket enough to burn it to a close fit and mount with whatever adhesive was common at the time, probably either a pitch, gum, or asphaltum base adhesive.
      I see I was clever enough to post this before spell checking it the first time!

Hi. I am so sorry for not getting to this post earlier – life is crazy, and tonight is my 9th wedding anniversary, but I found a few minutes to write.

Take good care of yourself, and I hope you recover and feel good soon.

Thanks so much about the nails, I am so grateful. They will have small heads, keeping in mind the spring frame is 8.25” by 8.25” – not large.

You are right about the kind of points used for ballistas and catapults – like bodkin points. I am guessing that small machines like this would use bodkins or even the tribolate or bibolate kind of heads that Loki has shown – I do know for sure Romans used those kinds of heads, in both bronze and iron, for arrows.

I believe that one you mentioned is the guy who had been pinned to a tree from a captapulta bolt, instantly killing him and temporarily routing the attacking force. Those bolts easily went right though any shield in existence and deep into a target, whoever that was. I may be wrong, but one of the root words from Greek for siege machines means shield breaker.

I'll PM you my address and such soon.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2007, 03:12:39 pm »
Mamba, me too until not that long ago.

Loki, salve. Man, Hector Cole's work is just amazing, and yeah, the price is what you get! Very dear for me though. And good thoughts on the heads. And making sinew rope will be one of the highlights of this project, though not so easy or cheap eh? :)

Trapper, should be plenty of room for the rope in the holes. You feed the rope slowly with tension, over and over and over. The ancient engineers would pluck the rope like a harp string to ensure even tension, and that is what modern folks do too. The entire hole will be filled, to maximize power.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2007, 09:35:27 pm »
I'll get you a Type 18 when i place my next order Dane (next few weeks),what would you prefer tanged or Socketed?

Andy
Durham,England

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2007, 11:58:11 am »
Andy, he does such amazing work, but his prices are a bit too much for me for now, but thanks very much for the offer - I don't want you paying for it.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2007, 07:02:57 pm »
Hi Dane,

cllinker2

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2007, 07:25:57 pm »
Hi Dane, I got the Email with your address.  I can certainly make anything anyone needs when I can fully smith.  I just saw my surgeon today, and I am limited to very light work (like making nails and points, etc. ) for 3 months.  I have made gates that weighed 3000 lbs and that were for estates.  But I can't work on anything that heavy for some time.  Quite depressing for me.  I am a good smith, have made arrowheads for 50 years, the first points were what got me into blacksmithing and crude.  My advice if you do videos is to realize just how bad the videos on the manuballista on the internet are.  I sold over $10,000 of one instructional video over a 14 year time.  You should make sure you write a script or story board.  Wind noises are distracting.  Seeing just the thing go clack is not too exciting.  show the projectile hitting, show it penetrating someting dramatic, like a pumpkin.  Film much more than you plan showing and edit.  Try and show some assembly of the weapon.  A good voice over can help.  I did my video before I knew anything about digital editing, made many mistakes, but it was well received.  We plan to make some more, but I don't know how soon.  I can fix you up with several point as well.  I am not up on what is historically accurate for ballista points.  But I am skilled enough I can forge weld Damascus gun barrels, so ballista parts don't sound overly challenging!  I plan eventually getting some information on my website when I get it done that shows how to build simple forges.  Instructibles has TERRIBLE attempts at making forges.  I made forges as good as any they are showing when I was 9 years old.  Don't follow them.  I don't know what type of metal melting furnace you are building.  If gas, charcoal or coke burning it can also be used to heat metal bars for forging. I am doing this gratis due to my personal interest, but I normally make my living selling ironwork and teaching how to do it.  I am sure I can answer any questions you might have.  I also have done quite a bit of casting, but more in aluminum than anything else.  i did cast bronze parts for horse drawn sleighs, so if you don't have local help perhaps I can give advice.  Realize the local high school shop instructor or technical school instructor may know quite a bit about casting and may be good help.

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2007, 09:41:09 pm »
Quote
Andy, he does such amazing work, but his prices are a bit too much for me for now, but thanks very much for the offer - I don't want you paying for it.

Dane

Salve Dane!
 hey i dont mind getting a point for you,i really want to see what this baby can do and we know the heads important to the destruction  >:D,it deserves a good accurate one.
But if Clinker can make you them then all the better,i sent a Hector cole head to Lloyd (LA) and it took over two weeks to arrive! i thought someone had pinched it,lol.
Clinker2,this is Hector Cole's version of the Type 18,would go lovely out of a manubalista  ;D.
Durham,England

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2007, 11:01:49 pm »
Hi Dane, I got the Email with your address.  I can certainly make anything anyone needs when I can fully smith.  I just saw my surgeon today, and I am limited to very light work (like making nails and points, etc. ) for 3 months.  I have made gates that weighed 3000 lbs and that were for estates.  But I can't work on anything that heavy for some time.  Quite depressing for me.  I am a good smith, have made arrowheads for 50 years, the first points were what got me into blacksmithing and crude.  My advice if you do videos is to realize just how bad the videos on the manuballista on the internet are.  I sold over $10,000 of one instructional video over a 14 year time.  You should make sure you write a script or story board.  Wind noises are distracting.  Seeing just the thing go clack is not too exciting.  show the projectile hitting, show it penetrating someting dramatic, like a pumpkin.  Film much more than you plan showing and edit.  Try and show some assembly of the weapon.  A good voice over can help.  I did my video before I knew anything about digital editing, made many mistakes, but it was well received.  We plan to make some more, but I don't know how soon.  I can fix you up with several point as well.  I am not up on what is historically accurate for ballista points.  But I am skilled enough I can forge weld Damascus gun barrels, so ballista parts don't sound overly challenging!  I plan eventually getting some information on my website when I get it done that shows how to build simple forges.  Instructibles has TERRIBLE attempts at making forges.  I made forges as good as any they are showing when I was 9 years old.  Don't follow them.  I don't know what type of metal melting furnace you are building.  If gas, charcoal or coke burning it can also be used to heat metal bars for forging. I am doing this gratis due to my personal interest, but I normally make my living selling ironwork and teaching how to do it.  I am sure I can answer any questions you might have.  I also have done quite a bit of casting, but more in aluminum than anything else.  i did cast bronze parts for horse drawn sleighs, so if you don't have local help perhaps I can give advice.  Realize the local high school shop instructor or technical school instructor may know quite a bit about casting and may be good help.


Whew, lots of food for thought, and thank you. The melting oven I am building is small, and will use a #6 crucible, which will give me about 18 lbs. capacity for bronze and brass, more than enough for my purposes. It is propane fired, basically a small drum lined with refractory rated to about 2800 degrees f, and opens at the top. Mostly, I will be making the plates for the manuballista spring frame, as well as a few trigger parts. Also, I can cast various other Roman projects, and bronze tribolate and bibolate arrow heads. Little ones too for the tiny "flies" they shot out of wooden channels held against the bow handle. I have to learn the thumb ring method to use that.

It is important to me to have cast washers rather than machined ones. There was a short supply of machinists in AD 1, eh? :)

Sorry to hear about the limits your doc put on you, but take care of yourself now and get back to work probably sooner than later.

I was sort of thinking of making videos for posting strictly here, but maybe something more indepth as a side line would be cool. Let's talk about that more later. I do have a bit of editing skills, and Adobe professional video editing software from a previous project (have to relearn it). A script would be simple enough, and yeah, audio can make a mediocre video good, while the best show can be really hurt by bad audio. Heck, I can have authentic Romans shooting the machines, and things that go splat would be nice to fire up. I plan to do some really in-depth penetration testing against decent (not butted galvanized junk chain maile) rivented and punched maile with proper linen subarmalis, so we can see what this machine can really do in an ancient combat situation. Shields as well, of course.

Good news - I have the slider close to being planed to proper dimesions, and then will make the bolt groove and begin fitting the stock into the frame. I don't anticpate any problems with that process, and then I can make the belly rest out of ash, pegged to the stock end. I'll probably pad the end with leather down the road.

 



 
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2007, 11:03:20 pm »
Quote
Andy, he does such amazing work, but his prices are a bit too much for me for now, but thanks very much for the offer - I don't want you paying for it.

Dane

Salve Dane!
 hey i dont mind getting a point for you,i really want to see what this baby can do and we know the heads important to the destruction  >:D,it deserves a good accurate one.
But if Clinker can make you them then all the better,i sent a Hector cole head to Lloyd (LA) and it took over two weeks to arrive! i thought someone had pinched it,lol.
Clinker2,this is Hector Cole's version of the Type 18,would go lovely out of a manubalista  ;D.


Man, that is a sweet and deadly looking point! If I can remburse you, or do something in kind, I'd be happy to do that.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2007, 08:14:15 pm »
No worries mate,seeing the destruction caused is enough for me,just post pics!  ;D

I'll order a type 18 when i get my next ones,you want it with a half inch socket dont you? or do you want a Tanged one? I dont think he makes them any larger than 1/2 inch.I fancy a Type 15 Devizes,what a brute!  >:D
Durham,England

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2007, 09:38:50 pm »
Andy, you made my day! Thanks so much! Socketed, 1/2 would be ideal. That type 15 is sooo evil looking. Nice stuff.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2007, 02:57:00 pm »
No problem mate,my pleasure  ;D.

I've placed an order with him,it usually takes him a week or two to get onto your stuff so when it arrives i'll pm you for the address to send it.I think your right going for a socketed head,i've never used a tanged design but i havent heard a lot of good thing's about them,just a lot of split shafts.

Pax
Durham,England

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2007, 10:25:23 am »
Andy, some barbarian pumpkins have your name on them! :) Thanks so very much. I just came in from working on the machine, and am covered in sawdust and shavings still (the wife loves when I track it through the house, not :) )  - the slider is now basically done, have to route in the bolt groove next. 

Regarding the tanged heads, one guy in Regia told me a while back he heats the tang up red hot and in it goes into a pre-drilled pilot hole in the shaft. I guess for a war shaft that you only expect to shoot once, it might not be as much of an issue, but for those of us who spend hours and bucks on our precious arrows, not so great. Never tried it myself, though I have some cheap tanged heads around here I plan to play with.

Not having to worry about spining the shafts for this machine will be very nice, too.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2007, 06:06:19 am »
The heads arrived Dane,if you could PM me the address to send it i'll pop it in the post for you,it's bloody lovely by the way  ;D.





Durham,England

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2007, 07:39:48 am »
Andy, today is Xmas, and you are St. Nicholas! Thank you so much!

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts