Author Topic: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?  (Read 30053 times)

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Limbit

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How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« on: September 11, 2013, 05:10:32 am »
Hello, I have been making bows now for many years, but just recently started making ELB-style bows. I have no experience shooting a bow like this and from what I can read about the traditional use of it online, it has a specific way of being fired using body weight rather than arm strength. I recently made an 85lbs Ipe ELB and and having a hell of a hard time pulling it to full draw around 28inch. I am well fit and used to use a a shorter 70lbs juniper/boo bow with no real problems, so it surprised and impressed me to find I couldn't even draw it briefly.  Any advice or any good links you could refer me to? I have been searching the net and coming up empty on a really good tutorial that will allow me to begin to practice with it. I thought maybe the fact that I am using Ipe might have something to do with it as well since it is so tight-grained, but I am not sure about that at all. Thank you for any of your advice in advance!!

Offline WillS

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 05:51:46 am »
Hi mate.  First off, I'm no expert so bear with me.  I'm sure some far more experienced warbow guys will help out but until then I'll offer the little advice I can. 

It's worth making sure you know what it is you're after.  An ELB is not by definition a high weight bow.  A 50# Victorian style longbow can be called an ELB.  I think what you are referring to is an English War Bow.  These bows were designed purely to throw very heavy 1/2" arrows a LONG way with enough force to punch through plate armour.  Lots of research has been done and it seems that the optimum bow weight for this task is somewhere between 100 and 150# at a full draw length of 32". An 85# bow is right on the lower limit of war bow weights, so once you've learned and developed the true war bow technique you should find it very easy!

As for the technique itself, studying videos and watching guys do it for real is the best way by far.  Try seaching YouTube for warbow technique videos - a very good one was uploaded by Nick Birmingham called Distance Shooting with the English War bow.  When compared to drawing a normal weight bow, there is much more rotational movement of the drawing arm, often coming up and over the head in a circle to fully engage the back and shoulders. 

A lot of warbow guys at the moment are adopting the rolling loose, which involves the entire body dipping towards the ground and rolling the weight back onto the rear leg while the bow rolls up to full draw.  Terrible explanation but again look on YouTube for Rolling Loose and there should be a couple of videos of Glennan Carnie showing it perfectly with a full labelled explanation.  Bear in mind it's a very exaggerated looking technique and lots of people think it's over the top and will laugh hysterically at you...

Also worth looking on YouTube for videos of Joe Gibbs.  He's currently shooting a 170#@32" war bow these days, and there is a great video uploaded by "40bowyr" of him popping off a dozen livery arrows from the 170lb bow.  Very impressive and a very smooth technique.  I'll try and find these vids and post them on here.

Hope this helps a bit.  Don't worry about the ipe being overly tricky, once you hit 100# you'll miss your gentle 85# bow ;-)

Offline WillS

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Offline Del the cat

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 08:38:12 am »
IMO.
Forget the rolling loose and leaping about for the moment.
Start with both hands low near your left hip. As you swing your arms up and back/out, both arms will be contributing to the draw.
(Some people go high first and then come back/down)

There is a big difference between drawing to the chin, the jaw and then right back beyond the jaw for a full medieval "in the bow draw".
Bear in mind that 80# at 32" will be a lot easier to pull for the first 3/4 than a bow that is 80# at 28" as it isn't up to full weight as it comes through the 28" mark.

At short draw lengths (like to the chin) you are fighting the bow and holding the full draw weight.
At a longer draw your limbs can go 'over centre' (over center) like one of those toggle catches on a jar or suitcase.
I'll explain:-
Drawing to 32" you right hand/forearm can be pulling back high, on a level with your eye or forehead.
You reach a point where the right elbow starts coming down in an arc to end up with your right thumb near your collar bone. Coming down in the arc is giving you added leverage and that 'over centre' action.
Your elbow/hand moves down in an arc say 9" long, but only pulls the string back 3", that's effectively giving you a 3:1 leverage! :)
Another way of looking at it:- Your upper arm is acting like the cam on a compound! (spits on floor)
'This is called coming over the hill' (so I've been told... none of this is my invention, but it's stuff I've found feels good to me)
Getting that early bit of draw is about confidence and momentum.
When I was a young kid, all adolescent boys had Charles Atlas chest expanders :laugh:, you if you held 'em across your chest and heaved, there was no way you could stretch 'em >:(. BUT if you started with 'em down by your knees and heaved up and out breathing in and throwing yourself into it... oh yes! :laugh:
Like most things its timing and confidence.
One last thing... it's always easier to draw a bow with an arrow on the string :o...! You are focussing on the arrow/target etc, not worrying about 'can I draw it?' 'will I over draw/underdraw?' etc
BTW. I think the 'thumb under the back of the jaw' anchor is a good compromise. You can still use a slight 'over the hill' draw but your aim is still very normal. A full medieval draw feels mad, as you have no idea where the back of the arrow and your anchor is until you've done it a fair bit... then your eye/brain slowly zones in and you can hit stuff smaller than a barn door again.

Hope that makes sense.
Del
Regarding the rolling loose, very very few people do it right, it is supposed to be about loosing at the instant you hit full draw with added forward momentum. Some supposedly good exponents of it hold at full draw for an age and then leap forward in an exagerated manner long after the arrow has gone.
My advice, keep it smooth and simple, if it looks silly, it probably is!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 09:00:29 am by Del the cat »
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Offline WillS

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 09:32:37 am »
The rolling loose feels controlled to me... ;-)

One thing I will add is not to think "chin...jaw...beyond jaw" as a set of anchor points.  Del explained it very well, with the thumb coming close to the collar bone, but just to take it one step further, I found the easiest way to complete the 32" draw is to think about bringing your draw arm to your upper chest rather than through a set of more comfortable/familiar anchor points.  It ends up using a new set of muscles that target archery only touches on. 

Offline adb

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 02:47:34 pm »

Offline Del the cat

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 05:08:05 pm »
Ok, I don't proffess to be a great exponent of shooting a heavy bow, but here's a link to a blog post of me shooting a 90# @28
You can see I slow up as I hit the wall, then I come over the hill for the last inch or so and it's loosed.
It's NOT a long draw but it shows how technique can help the last few inches.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/much-better-draw_22.html
Other thing to note is I'm shooting at a low target not up at 45 degrees for distance
It was a few years back. I'm make a 120# @ 32" in November and hoping to maybe train myself up to master itat least for a few shots.
Of course 120@32" is prob about 110# at 28" so it will be tough.
Any comments will be received with interest.
Del
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Offline WillS

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 06:07:04 pm »
Looks fine Del.  Heck, if the bow uses the whole arrow, and the thing comes out going where it's meant to go, who cares what you're doing? 

If I had to find one thing to comment on, I'd say you could use the rear leg more, pushing the weight over it.  You start your draw perfectly well, but the hips and legs don't move once you hit centre.  It's obviously different shooting flat at a target to shooting 45 degrees for distance, but the more weight you roll onto your back leg the smoother it feels getting to the "wall."  That being said, once you're there you're doing what you need to do, expanding the chest to finish the last inch.  If it's comfortable, accurate and you're not straining muscles needlessly, why change?

Offline adb

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2013, 07:30:27 pm »
Ok, I don't proffess to be a great exponent of shooting a heavy bow, but here's a link to a blog post of me shooting a 90# @28
You can see I slow up as I hit the wall, then I come over the hill for the last inch or so and it's loosed.
It's NOT a long draw but it shows how technique can help the last few inches.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/much-better-draw_22.html
Other thing to note is I'm shooting at a low target not up at 45 degrees for distance
It was a few years back. I'm make a 120# @ 32" in November and hoping to maybe train myself up to master itat least for a few shots.
Of course 120@32" is prob about 110# at 28" so it will be tough.
Any comments will be received with interest.
Del

120#@32" would be more like 100#@28". Usually 5# per inch for heavy bows from my experience.

Offline Del the cat

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 03:52:01 am »
@abd good point, maybe I'm in with a chance of shooting 120# :laugh:
Mind I've got a couple of slightly lighter long draw bows on the book too so I'll have a chance to get into it.
One guy (Taxi Dave) has potentially a huge draw. He's a taxi driver and his arms are sooo long he has to drive from sitting in the back ;)
Del
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Offline Heffalump

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 09:22:45 am »
Don't get me started on Taxi Dave , Del  >:( He's still fiddling about with a pile of "sticks" he's had mounted on his chimney breast for the last 10 years....Hector Cole heads, but otherwise a handful of low quality Poplar bananas! LOL Being a good Christian,  I sprang forward (ever the "helpful Harry") and loaned him a nice set of 33" ash shafted standard arrows. This was last Saturday over the field and he was banging them out to 200yds no problem first six shots. I had a good look at his action and I reckon he could end up needing 34-35" shafts once he tidies his draw up......bugga! Talk about the genetic lottery!!!  :laugh:

p.s. Might see you on the field on Sunday morning.....its gambeson weather for sure!  ;)

JayTee
Semper Specto in Vitae Parte Clara

Limbit

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 04:33:03 am »
Thank you so much! I was having a hell of a time finding good information. I'll give it a go and see if I run into any complications.

Offline Del the cat

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 04:44:15 am »
Just an added note of explanation.
If you can draw 70# at 28" then if you just go to 70# at 32" the extra 4" will actually give over 20% extra energy! So even the same poundage at the long draw is a huge advantage, especially if you want to shoot the heavy medieval arrows.
Del
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Offline adb

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 12:27:33 pm »
Just an added note of explanation.
If you can draw 70# at 28" then if you just go to 70# at 32" the extra 4" will actually give over 20% extra energy! So even the same poundage at the long draw is a huge advantage, especially if you want to shoot the heavy medieval arrows.
Del

I agree. The amount of time the string acts on the arrow is a great determinate of cast. I learned this lesson this summer. I was shooting my warbow, 90#@30" and Cam was shooting his warbow, 88#@30". Cam increased his draw length by 1" (shooting 31" arrows) and he outshot me by 20-30 yards. So, I agree, more draw length is more important than more weight.

Offline WillS

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Re: How do you draw a high-weight English Longbow?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 12:30:30 pm »
That's really interesting.  I wonder how much of that is dependent on the tiller of the bow? Most warbows are fairly stiff in the centre until right at the last few inches of a 32" draw.  If the extra inch or two came from the tips as compared to the middle, would it have a different effect on the cast?