Main Discussion Area > English Warbow
Evidence OTHER than MR Bows of 120+ bows?
Atlatlista:
--- Quote from: WillS on November 06, 2013, 04:28:37 pm ---We'll have to agree to disagree then :)
I've got no academic knowledge whatsoever on the topic, while you clearly do, so I won't insult your education by arguing! In my head, the thought of a primitive man away from the safety of his peers with a quiver of finished, ready arrows and nothing to shoot them with seems crazy. Two bows? Maybe. Hell of a lot to take on a journey as a lone man. (Although we don't know he was alone...)
Stratton reckons the tiny tool marks are a good indication that it was a finished bow. As far as he is concerned going to the effort of making such delicate, refined tool marks shows pride and care in finishing a product without the use of abrasives like sandpaper. I dunno if I agree entirely with that, but I can see the logic for sure.
I do think on a whole we underestimate primitive man and his strength and ability to use heavy bows. They lived a far harder life than us, and if soft couch potatoes like modern man can learn in a few years to use a 150lb bow, then surely, surely a hardened living-off-the-land primitive fella wouldnt have an issue.
--- End quote ---
My lab works with the Hadza, a hunter-gatherer group still using bows to hunt big game in Africa. Their bows get up to 100 pounds of draw weight. I don't disagree that Otzi's bow, when finished, might have been of a relatively heavy draw weight. 90-100 pounds certainly isn't unreasonable or out of the realm of possibility (though cross-culturally 50-60 pounds seems more normal). So, I'm not opposed to the idea of heavy weight bows, I just don't see that we can make a claim for that in this particular instance, with this particular evidence. Had the bow been finished, it would have been an incredible find. I'd likely have 3 replicas hanging in my living room as the Otzi discovery was one of the main reasons I grew up wanting to become an archaeologist. So, I definitely respect the idea of wanting to recreate his weapons, I just don't think it can be done with his bow, worse luck for that.
I also think that there is a lot missing in the story about where he was going and what he was doing - especially since things turned very violent and resulted in his death. Was that part of the world exceptionally violent then? Was warfare prevalent? Were communities isolated and aggressive towards one another? The trouble is we just don't know. Novels of speculation could be written, but from a scientific standpoint we're stuck with what we've got - which is actually an incredible abundance of information, information we've never had for any other European context from this age before.
I wonder if the stave was a trade item though. Look at how often we trade for staves on this and other forums. A good yew stave might have been something worth quite a bit at the time. Of course, that's every bit as speculative as anything else, but I like to wonder as much as the next person.
meanewood:
Hi Atlatlista
Way to much common sense for us to handle!
Wild speculation is far more interesting, especially when it comes to Otzi's exploits in the Alps!
WillS:
I'm pretty much with you on most of that. The one thing I can't ignore is that it looks so incredibly similar to the found Mary Rose bows (and the Viking Bow). The cross section is identical, the dimensions are identical, the length is very close if a tiny bit short.
I really like the idea of Otzi trekking across the alps to trade, it works logically and there's no reason for it not to be so. However, if you were going to trade a premium stave of yew, surely you wouldn't reduce it to dimensions which we as bowyers know make an excellent, high performance bow first. I know that most bowyers on here and other forums wouldn't bother paying for somebody's half finished bow. For a stave, yes. With the options available to layout your own personal design, choose your draw weight, fit the length to the user, but not a half finished bow. It's not worth anything to anybody other than original craftsman.
Looking at the cat scans, the bow cross section is complete. It's been rounded nicely, the edges of the back are smoothed (usually only done right at the end of work, before final tillering) and the thickness and profile tapers are cut and finished. The only thing that would suggest that it's not a finished bow are the mystery of the string nocks, and the tool marks. I find it really believable that in the absence (or lack of knowledge) of something like sandpaper, a bow would look rough to those who use abrasives to finish. The nocks... who knows. But again, he was found with string. You gotta admit, a body found with coiled bowstring, finished arrows.... and a bow.... sounds like a complete picture. To take the bow (which looks finished apart from the tool marks) and theorise that it's just a blank doesn't work - to me!
It's like the people who think the Mary Rose went sailing straight into battle with crates of unfinished bows. It's ludicrous, and doesn't work, logically.
I'm no expert, not by a long shot, so all I can do is theorise and put forward my personal opinion and hopefully you won't see this as an argument, but as a set of opinions as that's all it is. Otzi fascinates me, and I wish like you there was just that missing piece of the puzzle that would answer the questions, but we haven't got it, so we'll have to sit back and just... guess!
Interesting thread though! Original topic disappeared somewhere, so hopefully Kevin won the argument...
toomanyknots:
I think it could of easily been a reflexed bow (or stave) with a flat belly. Makes sense if he is scrapping the belly mostly to tiller. I doubt people back then cared much for cross section.
llkinak:
--- Quote ---It's like the people who think the Mary Rose went sailing straight into battle with crates of unfinished bows. It's ludicrous, and doesn't work, logically.
--- End quote ---
If they were sailing into battle, why would any bows, finished or not, be in crates? Probably because they were not intended for use in that battle. I don't know if the bows on the MR were staves or finished, though I tend to think the latter. I guess my point is that not jumping to conclusions isn't really all that ludicrous.
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