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Did English archers shoot over the knuckle or over the thumb?
Goose Fletch:
Hi
I had a question which i couldnt shrug off for a little while as possibility of being right seemed like a really far fetch...did the ancients shoot over the thumb of the bow hand or the knuckle of their index finger?
ive coached kids in archery, little robin hoods if you will ::) and because of their small size, i had to provide them with little and basic bows that didnt have any obvious position for an arrow to rest. more often than not, their first instinct is to take the bow in one hand, the arrow in the other and "bring them together" as opposed to up and over to the opposite side (index finger side) so the arrow lands on the thumb side.
i was doing a history major until i switched to something else, so like many others, i know how misleading artwork may be in a historical context. it does beg the question though....take a look at this:
http://www.agincourtwarbows.com/G383729_282752168428324_100000806306327_705176_280100545_n.jpg
ive done some tests, and tried shooting my longbow off the thumb....its not easy or pretty, but its not that hard. do you think some archers may have shot over the thumb? is there contrary or supporting evidence? i havent read all of aschams book, so maybe i'll go do that first. bear in mind, in japanese forms, a much longer bow is shot over the thumb, and asian/middle eastern styles include a style that shoot over the thumb too.
honk honk
goose
WillS:
We'll never know, will we? None of us were there ;)
Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use. If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often. Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.
Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string. The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inwards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.
If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise. This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb. With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow. The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.
Del the cat:
My experience with a left handed person on a have-a-go day shows it just doesn't work!
I got confused by the whole thing and put the arrow on the usual side of the bow... at loose it leaped off sideways :-[
It was a rare occasion that I knew the arrows were actually matched to the bow too, as I was letting them use one of my Hazel primitives and my arrows (well it was a pretty young woman... I'm sure you understand! ::) )
Del
toomanyknots:
--- Quote from: WillS on November 13, 2013, 04:15:18 pm ---We'll never know, will we? None of us were there ;)
Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use. If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often. Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.
Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string. The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.
If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise. This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb. With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow. The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.
--- End quote ---
I've been shooting off the thumb for a while now. I started doing that when I was a little kid with the bows and arrows I would make back then, I guess because I didn't have anybody to teach me otherwise. I would make little sapling bows and shoot unfletched arrows at leaves in the trees and what not. Now at age 27, it is still so ingrained in me that I just can't shake it, I try to shoot over the knuckle at least once a week or so. (I can do it with a shelf ok) But without a shelf it just seems awkward, it's mostly about the way I draw the bow with the arrow on the other side that seems weird to me, not the fact that the arrow is on the other side of the bow. I guess I am slowly learning both ways, but my point is shooting off the thumb is absolutely no problem for me, the only thing I would think is that if your fletches aren't perfect they can hurt your thumb sometimes. And I agree that the japanese yumi archers do just fine as well, I would think the japanese would be pretty methodological in their martial arts, and if there was a huge disadvantage to shooting off the thumb, I think it would be unlikely they would of keep doing it for so long. And yes, I know I look ridiculous when I shoot, ;D.
WillS:
Oh wow, that's cool. Never heard of anybody shooting trad bows off the thumb before! You're a freak. Get out.
Do you lean the bow over a fair bit to counter the clockwise pull of the release, or just shoot straight? I can't work out how it would work, but then if you've been doing it forever I can imagine it's no real issue for you! I guess it's like getting somebody who shoots 3 fingers under to use the Med loose, or somebody who shoots Gap/Point of Aim to shoot instinctive.
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