Update on 120# yew warbow - I don't like to complain, but...

[WillS]

Tch.  Look at you all, unbelievers. 

Have faith!   

Thanks Gus!  At least it's been an interesting thread, regardless of the outcome!

[SLIMBOB]

This was about as entertaining a thread as I've read in a long time!

[meanewood]

Hi all

I promised to do some testing with top knots/loops regarding use with side nocks, see page 2 of this post ( I can't quote it?)

What I suggested was to form a small loop and pass the string through it to form a self tightening loop.
This turned out to be too hard to loosen, so next I formed the small loop using a simple overhand knot on the bite and then passed the string through the loop.

This worked perfectly because the bulk of the overhand knot lifts and loosens the loop out of the slot easily when rotated, just like the bowyers knot does.
Unlike the bowyers knot, this will never slip and you won't have to adjust it!

I'm using this on the upper nock and the bowyers knot on the lower nock.
Give it a try!

[WillS]

That sounds very interesting.  Have you got any pics of your knots and the loop?

You need to try it with removable sidenocks now.  That's the real crux

[meanewood]

Hi Will
I'll take some pics and post them!
One thing I forgot to mention is how easy it is to get this loop/knot to tighten fully up to the nock. With a heavy bow it was always hard to get the bowyers knot to fully pull tight against the nock so I would file the belly side of the slot to a more acute angle.
 The sole surviving nock from the 'Mary Rose' only angles down slightly and this knot slides up easily to suit that shape!

[meanewood]

Removable side nocks?
It rings a bell, but I can't see why they would be loose!

If they had been loose wouldn't they just fall off and get lost?
Plus if the 'Mary Rose' bow nocks were not glued on, then they probably would have separated from the bows when submerged and the telltale marks on the tips would not be apparent?

What do other guys think about this?

[WillS]

It was kinda a joke.

There's basically an old theory doggin' around that the horn nocks were removable, and some guys have made replica MR bows with removable sidenocks.  The theory was that the strings were kept attached to the nocks and all coiled up together.  When the bows were braced, the nocks were just slipped over the ends.  It works in theory - many of the MR bows have identical enough tips for it to work, with even the grooves made by the string in exactly the same place. 

It gets harder in practice though - to get the bow bent enough to brace without a stringer at MR weights (150+) is pretty much impossible, and you need the nocks in place to use a stringer....

Just a thought, is all.  Have a look at some of Dave Pim's exceptional Italian yew warbows with completely loose, removable sidenocks.  I don't think anybody else out there at the moment can match Dave's finesse with replicated MR nocks.

[toomanyknots]

Just a thought, is all.  Have a look at some of Dave Pim's exceptional Italian yew warbows with completely loose, removable sidenocks.  I don't think anybody else out there at the moment can match Dave's finesse with replicated MR nocks.

I'd love to check out those bows, you don't have a link do you? I can't seem to find anything using google.

[WillS]

They're mainly on the EWBS forum, but I know Dave posted a couple of pics of his 110# Italian yew bow with removable nocks somewhere.  I'll try and find it.

Here's a pic of his removable nock



And the bow it came from here

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,39839.msg531846.html#msg531846

Sorry I can't find more info/pics.  If you become a member of the EWBS you'll have access to the best bows ever made on the forum!

[meanewood]

Hi Will
I'll take some pics and post them!
One thing I forgot to mention is how easy it is to get this loop/knot to tighten fully up to the nock. With a heavy bow it was always hard to get the bowyers knot to fully pull tight against the nock so I would file the belly side of the slot to a more acute angle.
 The sole surviving nock from the 'Mary Rose' only angles down slightly and this knot slides up easily to suit that shape!

OK, tried some pics but the camera is not good enough to pick up the details.

I'll try to explain it better and anyone with a side nock and a length of cord can try it out!

The idea is to create a small loop at one end of the cord ( about the same circumference as a pencil)
You can do this with an overhand knot on the bite ( which means fold the cord back on itself and tie the knot into both strands)

It can be hard to get the loop formed small enough but if you adjust it before pulling tight, its easier.

Then you thread the other end of the cord through the loop which creates the sliding loop you put around the nock!

I've also tried a running bowline which works just as well. Which raises the question, why would it be called a Bowline if not for use on a bow!

These knots are easy to tie, just google a knot site and view the simple steps.

I guarantee if you try one of these knots out on your bow with side nocks, you will find it easier to string and unstring and no more slipping of the top bowyers knot.

Still use a bowyers knot on the lower limb to enable adjustment

[toomanyknots]

Thank you Will! Indeed he does make a very nice bow!

[WillS]

OK, tried some pics but the camera is not good enough to pick up the details.

I'll try to explain it better and anyone with a side nock and a length of cord can try it out!

The idea is to create a small loop at one end of the cord ( about the same circumference as a pencil)
You can do this with an overhand knot on the bite ( which means fold the cord back on itself and tie the knot into both strands)

It can be hard to get the loop formed small enough but if you adjust it before pulling tight, its easier.

Then you thread the other end of the cord through the loop which creates the sliding loop you put around the nock!

I've also tried a running bowline which works just as well. Which raises the question, why would it be called a Bowline if not for use on a bow!

These knots are easy to tie, just google a knot site and view the simple steps.

I guarantee if you try one of these knots out on your bow with side nocks, you will find it easier to string and unstring and no more slipping of the top bowyers knot.

Still use a bowyers knot on the lower limb to enable adjustment

I really like this explanation, and will be trying it out on a bow I'm just starting (ash, 110#) so thanks for putting the research and experimentation in!

As for the "bowline" - as far as I'm aware (and it's been a long time since I sailed properly!) it was originally used to attach a mainsail via sheet to the bow of a ship/boat.  That basically means the front or leading corner of the mainsail (or mizzen, I suppose) is tied (the ropes are called sheets) to the very front (or bow) of the boat, and this resulted in the knot that was used being called the bowline.  That's bow pronounced baaaoooowwww as compared to our bows, pronounced bohhhhhhhw.  Technical terms there.

Interesting snippet fact - according to Wikipedia one of the earliest bowlines found was on the Solar Ship of Pharoah Khufu.  Khufu was the modest fella that had the Great Pyramid built for him at Giza and the Solar Ship was the wooden royal barge that was built for the pharaohs when they died that would carry them across the river into the afterlife.  They found a Solar Ship buried beside the Great Pyramid and it was like the world's first Ikea Flatpack - every single plank and piece of wood was separate, all laid in a great neat pile and everything would have been connected with small ropes and dowels following a strict set of instructions.  If you ever get a chance to go to Egypt and have a look it's well worth it.  Quite a stunning achievement.

[Marc St Louis]

Such a knot wouldn't work with a linen string, the string would break at the knot

[WillS]

What about a normal Flemish laid-in loop, as you would make any other bowstring, then pass the end of the bowstring through that loop, thus creating a slipping knot without any actual "knots"?

[meanewood]

Hi Guys

My linen string has not broken yet and the knot shows no sign of stress so far!
I think this set up spreads the strain over all parts of the string as it passes around the nock just like the bowyers knot does

A laid in loop would require a wide nock slot and the knot is required to lift the tight loop out of the slot when rotating!