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ROI MODUS AND BODY MEASUREMENTS FOR MAKING MEDIEVAL LONGBOW

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OTDEAN:
Hi all

I have two 80"ish flawless pieces of ash drying and will be making myself another longbow.  Keep trying to get them right.  With the measuring techniques suggested in the Roi Modus, I am going to be experimenting with a 74" longbow (bend through the handle of course) and 34" arrows.  I am going to make this bow just light enough for me to draw comfortably.  I will also spine each arrow in turn after shooting them to see how they fly.

1) Does anyone have any suggestions for starting width at centre?  I work in inches.  I am aiming for about 65lbs @ 34 inch.  I have long arms and this measurement will suit me when I draw to my ear, which is what I intend to do, just they used to. 

2)  Any suggestions what measurements for taper on a 34" arrow?  I am thinking of trying 3/8" at the shoulder and having 5/16" taper at nock.  I will be using ash or birch arrows.  My arrow heads will be 100g field points.

Del the cat:
With Ash Id suggest going as wide as you can whilst still making it look like a longbow, also trapping the back and heat treating the belly.
Keep the belly fairly flat with just a slight curve and rounded corners, don't try a high arched belly... that's best left for Victorian Yew target bows.
Obviously the quality of Ash like any wood is very variable, the stuff growing in the UK is poor.
So to answer the Q I'd start with 1.4 - 1.5" width.
I use inches for length and mm for width depth as they are a convenient size.
Where is your Ash from? Maybe some one with more local knowledge will have experience with that wood.
I'd say you are making the bow way too short for a 34" draw. I'd go as long as maybe 78" and start 1.5" wide.
Bottom line is better to start too wide as the width can be reduced later without loosing too much draw weight.
(doubtless someone will be along to contradict me shortly ;) ;D ::) )
Oh yeah, the arrows sound fine. I've had 3/8 Maple which was good too. and "Modkin" point... dunno if you get them over there?
Del

WillS:
I think Del's on the money with everything he said!   That bow is way too short for a 34" draw.  It's almost too short for a 32" draw - you want to be looking at 78" - 80" long for your 34" draw to keep it on the safe side.  You say "keep trying to get them right" which (and please excuse any assumptions) suggests that you're struggling to get a bow finished.  By starting so short, you're already making life difficult for yourself, so go to 80" and get a working bow before trying to make them as short as you can.

You're looking for 65lbs which isn't even close to warbow weight, so this is probably best moved to the normal bows section, but like Del said, 1.5" wide is about right.  You can start wider if you want and reduce while you're tillering if it looks too wide.

With ash, make sure you know the density - some of it may look "flawless" but if the density is too low it'll just be a soggy noodle by the time it's done.  Ash has a funny way of being either very very good, or very very bad.  The good stuff works like steel - it'll blunt all your tools and make you want to give up bow making forever, but will also produce a solid, hard bow.  The bad stuff (which sadly is far more common) works like butter under the tools, but takes set like crazy. 

As for the 34" arrows - I think that's a bit excessive.  As an example, the longest arrows found on the Mary Rose were just around 32", with the most common being 30.5".  There's one guy in the EWBS who shoots 33" arrows and that's an upper limit.  It's one thing to stand with your arms out and measure 34" back to your ear, but once you have an actual bow with any decent weight in your hands, your arm compresses, your body compresses and you end up losing up to 6" of draw length if the bow is heavy enough.  I remember one of the top EWBS guys mentioning that he lost 8" of draw length while shooting a 170# bow, so don't assume you'll have a 34" draw once you're shooting. 

If you've yet to succeed with a bow (and again, apologies if I'm wrong and making assumptions!) I would go for a 76" or 80" long bow (ash especially likes being long and wide - if it was a decent piece of yew you might get away with 74") and 32" arrows as the standard.  You'll still need to be very good at tillering and working a stave just to achieve a 32" bend longbow.  Add to that the complications of trying to hit an exact weight and keeping it high, and you'll find pretty quickly that going for a short bow, with a long draw length and a pre-determined draw weight will be a hell of a challenge.

Of course, if you like a challenge then make it 72" and go for the full 34" draw at 110#.  It can be done ;)

OTDEAN:
Thanks for responding, I will try and answer you both in turn.

Del:

My ash is from North Yorkshire, the wood is good quality and I have made several smaller bend through the handle bows.  The best I had with ash was 62 inch ntn, heat treated with a trapped back.  It pulled 54lb @ 27" about 1" of string follow.  The bows I have made are being pulled to 26" which is my anchor at the moment on my 'short draw' as I would call it.

I will start about 1/2 wide and see what kind of strength I get at floor tiller.  Go from there.  78" might be right it might be wrong.  The reason I am opting for 74" is because I am making a bow using guidelines given in a medieval treatise on hunting with the bow.  From my own experience, bow length is normally safe when you double the arrow length and add a little?  I seem to remember this was a general rule suggested in a lot of books I have read.  My own experience of bow making has supported this rule and I personally have found my bows only follow the string for about 1" or 1.5" when I keep within those limits.  So I reckon if my arrows are 34" and I double that, I get 68" so I have 6" to play with for safety, bearing in mind this is not a stiff handled bow, that should be more than adequate?  Any more limb length would just add mass and slow the bow down? 

Think I will stick with those arrows and see how I get on.  Thanks for the input Del.

WillS:

If you read my response to del think you will see my logic for the bow length and 34" arrows.  I do have experience of making flat bows successfully and light weight bend through the handle bows but now I am trying to raise my game and make heavy weight longbows.  My inspiration comes from my love of english history and a few books that indicate that bows were custom made to fit the archers limb lengths.  I know the warbows were mostly mass produced, but this I believe would have taken place as it says so in the ROI MODUS  real medieval book on archery.

 The 74" for the longbow and 34" arrow are not just random figures I have plucked out of the air, using methods of measurement using my fist as measuring tools, I have calculated these are the optimum lengths for bow and arrow for me personally when using the advice written in the ROI MODIS.  Taking that advice and using my own fists as the measuring tools these are the measurements I have gained for a long bow and arrow to be used with the technique of pulling to the ear.  Only one way to learn if its right or not and thats to make it!

Appreciate what you said about the Mary Rose finds, but they varied in length, bow strength, arrow length, this makes me feel that some of the equipment might have been 'tailor' made for some of the archers.  How else do you explain these variables?  The Mary Rose bows were tillered to different strengths which makes me firmly believe they were clearly intended for different men with different physical strengths, a 'tailor fit' This fits with my own experiment of making a bow using measuring techniques for measuring an individual for a bow in the middle ages.

Think I will try one stave at 74" and follow both your advice on the other stave any try say 78" that way if your right I will probably have a good bow and if Im right I can come back on here with photos of me 74" tailor made bow.

P.S Wills Dont know if you are in the UK, you probably are?  I have found that even poor ash when heat treated and with a trapped back like Mike Roberts advised me to do when I startd out, always turns out a champion bow wood if you keep it dry, well sealed and well tillered.  I hear you about the density.  When Im tillering, as soon as I notice any string follow, I look at the bow and if its not a tillering issue I generally aim for a lighter weight bow because the bow cant take the weight I was originally tillering for.

Thanks for the feedback lads.  I will update you once I have started.  Will be  while yet, never have the time!

Dean.

Del the cat:
There may be a difference between young Ash and that from a mature tree*. I know I've been dissapointed with stuff from upto about 6" diameter. I do have some stuff from a much bigger tree, but I'm in no rush to use it as it's well down my lisy of fave' woods.
Del
*Anyone with first hand experience care to comment on this hypothesis? Sapling vs mature.?

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