Main Discussion Area > Primitive Skills
Bannerstone Discussion
JackCrafty:
As far as drills being found with bannerstones on the same sites, I don't know. I'll need to research that. But the time period for bannerstones was about 6000 B.P. to 3000 B.P. This was a VERY long period (at least 3000 years) and many drills have been dated to this period ( Middle Archaic to Late Archaic ) .... so the possibility of finding both together is certainly there.
JackCrafty:
So, I looked for examples of bannerstones found West of the "Big Muddy" and found a few posted by a collector who found them near Caddo Lake, which straddles the border between Texas and Louisiana.
---http://www.arrowheadology.com/forums/hardstone/48647-more-bannerstone-halves.html
Zuma:
Thank you so much Jack.
This is the info we need.
I wrote this before your last post.
Thanks again for being involved. Means a lot.
Please don't take me in a negative way.
But let's look at the images.
Frame one is dart shafts. I can go with that.
Frame two is fore shafts. I can go with that.
The next to last frame gives you the area where a 3/8" -1/2"
bannerstone is supposed to fit???
Think about it. Could they slip those drilled stones up from the handle end??
Yes and btw the last frame is Larry's modern interpretation from Paleo Planet.
I would sure like his input here.
It takes him like ten hours to drill a banner hole??
I have been at this for quite awhile and no matter what the reality of these modified
stones, is that they are totally fascinating. IMO equal to the ability for Clovis man to strike a flute.
Naw more advanced.
Please don't let my bias coerce your thoughts and keep you from posting them.
Attempting to solve mysteries is fun. Please join in.
Zuma
JackCrafty:
Zuma, I like these discussions as well. :)
Just to be clear, I don't think the drilled bannerstones were atlatl weights. I think you don't believe that either, but I'm not sure. I get confused when you mention that a drilled bannerstone might be able to be slipped onto the atlatl from the narrow end. I don't believe this was done in the Southwest ( or anywhere else ) and I think you agree with this but, again, I'm not sure.
On a side note, as far as grooved stones go, I consider some of these to be atlatl weights but I have seen discussions that call these "bannerstones" as well and it can get confusing. There are certainly grooved stones found everywhere in the US and, since these are sometimes called bannerstones ( or boatstones ) , it's difficult to have a clear discussion sometimes.
I try to keep them separated in my side of the discussion by using only the term "atlatl weights" for weights actually attached to an atlatl and "bannerstones" or "boatstones" as mysterious items.
Your experiments with bannerstones as drill weights is very interesting. I think you are definitely onto something. I think drilling was important enough to spend time making "fancy" tools for drilling. Drilling is certainly a more logical use for the bannerstones than for atlatl weights, simply because atlatls are subject to a lot of abuse and are easily dropped or otherwise mishandled which could lead to the breakage of delicate bannerstones.
Again, just to be clear, there are real atlatl artifacts that clearly have stone weights attached. I believe that atlatl weights were used and that there is no doubt of their existence.
Some have put forth the idea that drilled bannerstones would slide up and down the atlatl during a throw, but I don't see any logic to this idea whatsoever.
I'll try to find some atlatl artifact pictures from areas other than the southwest. I think I remember seeing some from the Northeast.
Zuma:
No problem Jack.
I was a little sarcastic and not very clear about the Bannerstone atatl fit.
I am glad you agree about the drilling possibility and make good points for it.
I have a good link for atatls from Alaska and Canada.
A collection maintained by the Smithsonian I think.
These are quite elaborate. I hope everyone has a look. No rocks.
For me there is really no need to discuss atatls at all, except to try and explain
that the common winged type banner does not fit on known ancient atatls
but is a perfect fit for arrow type shafts.
Atatl limbs are wider and flat, not cylindrical and 3/8" in diameter.
To tackle all the other types, like boat and bird stones would be a side to the
drilling as research may turn up interesting info on those artifacts also.
There is a lot of work left IMO to just understand the evolution of North American
ABO drilling. So far the links I have found have opened some doors for things like
dates and Provence. Putting together all the different info in a cronical order along
with associated archaeological data may help shed some light on these winged bannerstones.
Smithsonian Atlatls - ImageEvent
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