Author Topic: Condors and lead  (Read 21082 times)

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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2015, 03:16:03 pm »
JW
when you speak highly of the peer review process, aren't you implying that transparency is the best way to prevent bias?

I presume that the non-profit you represent obtains work funded by the taxpayer? Would it not be prudent to disclose your possible conflict of interest when presenting your views and citing findings? There have been questions about the effectiveness of the peer review process in other well funded areas of research that I shall leave unnamed in this thread, perhaps for these very reasons.

I understand that you identify with and are proud of your affiliation with sportsmen, and I would even go so far as to say that you and I would enjoy a day in the field as fellow hunters and sportsmen, even if we have never met in person, but If push comes to shove with a government contract administrator that supports anti hunting measures, would you sacrifice your non-profit for the good of the sportsman?

Yes, willie, I am confident transparency is critical.  And to honor that transparency, I am going to open myself in a manner that is absolutely none of your business.

1) My entire income is derived from a part time job in an upscale wine/liquor store and I bring down a mad income in the high four digits range. 
2) The Black Hills Raptor Center receives absolutely NO Federal, State, County, or Municipal funding whatsoever.  Why?  Because there is no funding for conservation education under any of those agencies.  I know.  I looked.  Hard.  Repeatedly.  Our funding comes from program fees (93% of all programs are from school programs and close to 3/4 of those fees are paid by the teachers themselves), donations, corporate grants (few and far between), grants/gifts from sportsman's groups, sale of owl pellets, and donations of materials. 
3) IF (and we are talking pure fantasy here) we were to receive some of that nonexistant funding from a governmental agency, that means very little to me, personally, because I sit as Secretary/Vice President of the Board of Directors of the organization.  Our organization is classified under the IRS Code as a 501(c)3 Non-Profit.  Under South Dakota state law, a sitting board member of a Federally recognized non-profit" may not receive wages, salary, stipends, or financial remuneration "of any sort. At best, I can be reimbursed for expenditures of my own money for operating expenses, fixed or variable, capital outlay, or other expenditures incurred in the normal function of the nonprofit.  That means I could spend MY money on it, but I can request reimbursement, something that requires a vote by the board of directors.  And frankly, I have not kept record of my personal expenditures and am probably close to $10,000 out of pocket at this point, not even counting the mileage on my personal vehicle (old enough to vote and closing in on a quarter million miles, just in case you wanna take a shot at that.  The organization does not even have a "company car".)
4) Our non-profit was scrutinized by a retired forensic accounting investigator from the IRS (she worked on the Bernie Madoff case) and other than correcting our definitions of fixed costs and variable cost expenses, we were given a clean bill.  That report was sent to a organization that rates non-profits and we were assigned an
A++ rating for financial accountability.  Just in case you wanted to try taking that swipe at me next.

Our organization is entirely operated on a volunteer basis.  I give, typically, 30 hours of my week to this organization.  I carry a phone on me at all times that gets calls from the public asking for help with injured birds of prey as well as prey animals at all hours.  I, and other volunteers, drop what we are doing and go out on "rescue calls".  Yesterday it was a great horned owl hung on the barbs of a barbed wire fence.  The wing was horribly mangled and I had to wait close to three hours to get a callback from the USF&W agent in my area for permission to euthanize an animal in extreme pain.  No biggie, my first day working with raptors, I got to kill a golden eagle! 

On that particular day, I had an argument with the managing director of that particular raptor center over the issue of lead poisoning of raptors.  I quoted the "party line" on the subject with such vehemence I was told to drop the subject or be released immediately.  I dropped it.  For the moment.  When I got home that night I started doing my own research and I was going to build a case that would hammer her arguments into the dirt.  I was going to prove her vegan hippy frou-frou opinions were unsupportable.  And I was inundated with rock solid research and evidence day after day, incident after incident.  I CAME BY THIS POSITION HONESTLY!

Which brings up apoint.  I have to wonder why you did not ASK if any of my personal funding or funding of my non-profit came from governmental sources?  I have to wonder why you chose to make a baseless accusation without so much as a shred of evidence one way or the other?  Was it simply a poor choice of words, or was it like the slick prosecutor stating the accused is a known molestor of innocent farm animals, and when e is checked by the defense, apologizes to the Judge and jury saying, "I do believe you are right, he was never convicted in a court of law", knowng that once he had impugned the integrity of the accused that bell could not be unrung.  Either way, swing away at my integrity.  I will stand behind it. 

« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:34:10 pm by JW_Halverson »
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2015, 03:50:45 pm »
On a little lighter note, I got to see 2 Bald Eagles today while checking my traps, it amazes me how many of them I see in NW Penna. Always a plesant site. Bob

As a kid I hoped I would see one before they became extinct.  And that was certainly possible.  Nowadays, they are almost boringly common around here.  In fact, ice fishermen whine because they have to watch their fish on the ice closely to keep the white headed vultures from stealing them!  Haha! (I hereby admit freely and of my own volition that when ice fishing, I have on occasion slid a trout out on the ice a little bit too far from where I was sitting on the chance that it would get stolen.  But in my defense, I always counted that stolen fish as part of my daily limit)
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2015, 03:58:21 pm »
I've been following along and trying to avoid jumping into this for several reasons.  First and foremost being that I really don't care if condors go the way of the pteradactyl.(Hey...I'm just being honest here).  That being said, I do care about most other birds affected by this.  It is total conceivable in my mind that fragments of lead in the crop would be pulverized into particles that would be absorbed into the blood stream and as such I use bismuth/tin alloy shot and Barnes X bullets in almost all my hunting ammunition.  JW is correct in both the performance of the Barnes bullets and that there is absolutely no more wear on your barrel than jacketed bullets would cause. But I have to admit that i am more than a little jaded towards the governmental funded science.  Especially when it results in legislation that restricts the second amendment.  I know...that's a whole other can of worms.  I'm not trying to hi-jack this thread in that direction.  Just explaining my thought process. 
  One of my many hobbies is amateur prospecting.  I have panned tons and tons of materials over the years all over the country.  To date I have found one .58 cal. miniball and 2 .22 bullets in my pan.  That's it for refined lead.  What I have found quite often is raw galena ore in small pieces.  Yes you can tell the difference between galena ore and refined lead.  Is it possible that these birds are getting some of there lead poisoning from naturally occurring galena placer deposits?  And if so how much of it is from this source and not shot?  Just food for thought.  I'm not a scientist nor am I well read on the subject.  Perhaps that has already been ruled out in studies.  I don't know.  Galena deposits are fairly common in the condors range as well as along the migratory path of many waterfowl and birds of prey.  Like I said, just food for thought.  Josh

Raptors, including condors, vultures, eagles, hawks, falcons, owls, and caracaras typically do not pick up grit or gravel on purpose much.  It may be embedded in a carcass hit by a car and consumed, but it really is a non-starter as far as a source of lead goes. And that still would not account for the connection between lead poisoning and the presence of copper and tin in exact ratios as the gilding metal.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline jeffp51

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2015, 04:29:57 pm »
A great series of posts JW.  Very interesting stuff, actually.

Offline willie

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2015, 06:37:44 pm »
JW

my call for transparency was not presented as fighting words, but simply a poor response in an ongoing discussion at the time.

I need to offer more than the preceding explanation, and will send a PM. Please give me a few days, as I am not free at this time to respond appropriately.

thanks for your patience

willie

« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 06:41:42 pm by willie »

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2015, 07:19:37 pm »
Please stay on topic. No ducks, Jenny Wrens, Rappers or crappers. :laugh:
It's Condors and lead. If you feel the need to spill your guts
make sure there are not lead shrapnel's in them. >:D
I am totally sick of my threads getting hijacked into personal
tirades/rants. To many real capable folks here willing to discuss
these matters with out PUFFING up.

I know the investments we all have in the understanding of our
investments in our individual lives are passionate and precious.

I value and respect all of it.   IF ---  and I say IF, we are a family here
we are showing signs of being dysfunctional.
I was going to start a new thread about this but things here
were on a very reasonable even keel.
That changed.
Here are a few things to think about--
If you start a thread- stick with it until it fades.
You are the author you must have your powder dry.
It is your responsibility to keep the peace between yourself
and all posters.  Mob mentality is portrayed in movies
from "The Wild Bunch" to "On the Waterfront.
That's why I booked out. Termoil sucks.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline iowabow

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2015, 09:18:03 pm »
Please stay on topic. No ducks, Jenny Wrens, Rappers or crappers. :laugh:
It's Condors and lead. If you feel the need to spill your guts
make sure there are not lead shrapnel's in them. >:D
I am totally sick of my threads getting hijacked into personal
tirades/rants. To many real capable folks here willing to discuss
these matters with out PUFFING up.

I know the investments we all have in the understanding of our
investments in our individual lives are passionate and precious.

I value and respect all of it.   IF ---  and I say IF, we are a family here
we are showing signs of being dysfunctional.
I was going to start a new thread about this but things here
were on a very reasonable even keel.
That changed.
Here are a few things to think about--
If you start a thread- stick with it until it fades.
You are the author you must have your powder dry.
It is your responsibility to keep the peace between yourself
and all posters.  Mob mentality is portrayed in movies
from "The Wild Bunch" to "On the Waterfront.
That's why I booked out. Termoil sucks.
Zuma

Ok so the thread is about a study that identifies lead from  hunting as leading to condor deaths. Also, you beleive the studies are "BS".  Has your position changed as you have read these post?
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2015, 09:35:37 pm »

I am not on trial here. Some here continue to think that
they are some sort of a of prosecuting attorney or a
relentless pit bull that can't let go of a person or preconceived idea.
 All the questions have been answered over and over.
 Get over it !
Broken record folks, PLEASE start your own thread.
OR would you rather make such a stink here to selfishly
have all your post just go away.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline iowabow

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2015, 01:00:03 am »

I am not on trial here. Some here continue to think that
they are some sort of a of prosecuting attorney or a
relentless pit bull that can't let go of a person or preconceived idea.
 All the questions have been answered over and over.
 Get over it !
Broken record folks, PLEASE start your own thread.
OR would you rather make such a stink here to selfishly
have all your post just go away.
Zuma
Well you are not on trial but you placed your opinion on trial (to be examined) when you ask for a discussion on the topic. I just ask the same question back and on a topic of your's . Not an attack I just ask for your thoughts like you did.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 01:10:19 am by iowabow »
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2015, 09:00:06 am »

Ok so the thread is about a study that identifies lead from  hunting as leading to condor deaths. Also, you believe the studies are "BS".  Has your position changed as you have read these post?

Ok I will try this. The documentary I don't think was the study.
What they said on the documentary was "We have checked these Condors for lead in their blood and it is caused because our birds eat carcasses not recovered from hunters. Period. They also stated that this problem causes great distress and even death to their birds. And again for the last time-- they did not mentioned  GUTPILES.
Perhaps that's what you are missing. Why because the gut piles would certainly out number non recovered game making a more plausible argument.
Gutpiles were mentioned later in the thread and made more sense.
You see there can be good things in discussion.
But re releasing the birds makes no sense at all. Do you not agree??
So no matter how you want to slice it the documentary is missleading and sad.
BS is much easier to type.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2015, 10:36:12 am »
Assuming that any documentary is ironclad is foolhardy. Every documentary is made by a human. More than likely they have a bias one way or the other from the onset. Sometimes due to budget issues they aren't able to get the most knowledgeable people to obtain information from. Ancient Aliens is a documentary. Reefer Madness is a documentary. Evidence disproving your claim has been presented. Now it is your job to provide information supporting your claim. Peer reviewed is best.
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
27 inch draw, right handed. Bow building and Knapping.

Offline iowabow

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #101 on: November 12, 2015, 11:13:11 am »

Ok so the thread is about a study that identifies lead from  hunting as leading to condor deaths. Also, you believe the studies are "BS".  Has your position changed as you have read these post?

Ok I will try this. The documentary I don't think was the study.
What they said on the documentary was "We have checked these Condors for lead in their blood and it is caused because our birds eat carcasses not recovered from hunters. Period. They also stated that this problem causes great distress and even death to their birds. And again for the last time-- they did not mentioned  GUTPILES.
Perhaps that's what you are missing. Why because the gut piles would certainly out number non recovered game making a more plausible argument.
Gutpiles were mentioned later in the thread and made more sense.
You see there can be good things in discussion.
But re releasing the birds makes no sense at all. Do you not agree??
So no matter how you want to slice it the documentary is missleading and sad.
BS is much easier to type.
Zuma
Peer review would be nice to read. You started this thread about a study. If this has changed can you now title this  documentary so I can search and watch it?
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2015, 12:54:05 pm »
Ok skeptics I guess you have a problem with clicking a link.
So here is the one I posted for you on page five.
 Now please stop chewing on my ankles.
There is a message for you at the end of page.


Bare in mind this study was done in 2008 so if they are still complaining
about the mortality and poisoning it must be because they continue to
subject the poor birds to that fate. Or the documentry was way old?
Please tell me your take on it.

I included the conclusion. I read the paper in it's intireity


Effectiveness of Action to Reduce Exposure of Free-Ranging ...



Dec 24, 2008 ... Condors were routinely recaptured and treated to reduce their lead levels as ... We simulated the effect of ending the existing lead exposure ...

 
 
We used a previously published population model [8] to assess likely long-term trends in the numbers of condors in the absence of further releases and without chelation and other treatment of birds with elevated blood lead concentrations. According to this model, the condor population would tend to decline under present conditions unless natural adult mortality was at the lower end of the likely range or reproduction was at the “maximum conceivable” level (Table 5). Since the assumptions of the “maximum conceivable” scenario are extremely unlikely to apply to any real population of condors, this indicates that the Grand Canyon condor population is unlikely to be self-sustaining at current levels of exposure to lead.



Rhys E. Green,1,2,* W. Grainger Hunt,3 Christopher N. Parish,3 and Ian Newton4
Tom Pizzari, Editor
Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ▼
Copyright Green et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:


Abstract
California condors (Gymnogyps californianus) released into the wild in Arizona ranged widely in Arizona and Utah. Previous studies have shown that the blood lead concentrations of many of the birds rise because of ingestion of spent lead ammunition. Condors were routinely recaptured and treated to reduce their lead levels as necessary but, even so, several died from lead poisoning. We used tracking data from VHF and satellite tags, together with the results of routine testing of blood lead concentrations, to estimate daily changes in blood lead level in relation to the location of each bird. The mean daily increment in blood lead concentration depended upon both the location of the bird and the time of year. Birds that spent time during the deer hunting season in two areas in which deer were shot with lead ammunition (Kaibab Plateau (Arizona) and Zion (Utah)) were especially likely to have high blood lead levels. The influence upon blood lead level of presence in a particular area declined with time elapsed since the bird was last there. We estimated the daily blood lead level for each bird and its influence upon daily mortality rate from lead poisoning. Condors with high blood lead over a protracted period were much more likely to die than birds with low blood lead or short-term elevation. We simulated the effect of ending the existing lead exposure reduction measures at Kaibab Plateau, which encourage the voluntary use of non-lead ammunition and removal of gut piles of deer and elk killed using lead ammunition. The estimated mortality rate due to lead in the absence of this program was sufficiently high that the condor population would be expected to decline rapidly. The extension of the existing lead reduction program to cover Zion (Utah), as well as the Kaibab plateau, would be expected to reduce mortality caused by lead substantially and allow the condor population to increase.

Introduction
The California Condor (Gymnogyps californianus) became extinct in the wild in the 1987 when the last wild individual was captured and added to the captive flock, which then consisted of 27 birds. Since 1992, releases of these birds and their captive-bred progeny have re-established wild populations of condors in California, Mexico and around the Grand Canyon in Arizona and Utah. Individual condors in these populations have suffered from lead poisoning caused by ingested ammunition, which is the most frequently diagnosed cause of death among Grand Canyon condors. This holds despite intensive efforts to monitor blood concentrations of lead and to treat birds with high levels using chelating agents [1]. The condors in the Grand Canyon population range widely in Arizona and Utah and feed on carrion, a proportion of which comes from the carcasses of game animals shot by hunters using lead ammunition. Ingestion of shotgun pellets and fragments of bullets in flesh from such carcasses is the route by which lead poisoning occurs. Condors are located as frequently as possible using satellite tags and VHF radio tags and those that cease to move are recovered. Birds are also captured routinely and their blood lead concentrations measured. Any individuals with high levels are held for treatment to reduce the burden of lead in the body before release. Action is also taken on the Kaibab Plateau, Arizona to reduce exposure of condors to lead by encouraging hunters to use non-lead bullets and to remove potentially contaminated gut piles. The level of condor mortality caused by lead that would occur in the absence of chelation therapy and lead exposure reduction is of interest because it might not always be practical to locate birds daily and trap all condors routinely once or twice per year for blood lead monitoring, and implementation of lead exposure reduction schemes requires resources [2]. Could the reintroduced population persist if the lead exposure reduction and treatment programs ceased or were reduced in scope? What would be the effect of reducing exposure to spent lead ammunition throughout the range of this population? As a step towards addressing these questions, we report here a statistical model of blood lead levels in free-ranging condors, which extends previous analyses [3]. We took advantage of the unusually complete radio-tracking data, which allow the influence on blood lead of the location of condors within their geographical range to be assessed. Our objectives were to model the distribution of blood lead levels throughout the year in the absence of treatment, and then to estimate the mortality rates that would prevail. Finally, we used the model to explore the possible effects on condor mortality of withdrawing or increasing measures to reduce exposure of condors to spent lead ammunition.



Materials and Methods
Field studies
We used data for 2005, 2006 and 2007 derived from the monitoring of movements and blood lead levels of free-ranging condors [1]. The dependent variable in our analyses was the concentration of lead in the blood of a condor determined within five days after capture. Blood lead levels were determined using a portable field tester (LeadCare Blood Lead Testing System). Some blood samples were also analysed by atomic absorption spectroscopy at the Louisiana State University Diagnostics Laboratory using a Perkin Elmer Analyst 800. Levels of lead in the same blood sample measured using the field tester and in the laboratory were strongly correlated, but laboratory measurements gave significantly higher values (see Figure 2 of reference [1]). Using 99 cases in which the lead concentration in the same blood sample had been determined by both methods, we found that the mean concentration of lead measured in the laboratory was larger than that from the field tester by a factor of 1.914. In all analyses we therefore used a laboratory determination whenever one was available and otherwise adjusted the field tester measurement using this correction factor.

Figure 2Hypothetical changes in blood lead concentration over time for California condors moving between zones with high and low daily risk of ingesting lead.
We modeled the blood lead level in each free-ranging condor in relation to the locations it had used before it was recaptured for testing. During the study period, roost locations of condors marked with VHF or satellite tags were determined on the majority of days for all tagged condors, and attributed to one of the following five zones; Paria (Vermilion Cliffs), Colorado River Corridor, Kaibab Plateau, South Zone and North Zone (Utah). A location was taken to be a roost location if it was obtained later than16.00h. local time. Condors are known to range widely, even within a day [3], so the ideal analysis would take into account the bird's location at several times during each day. However, only the data for satellite tagged birds would permit this. Roost locations were recorded for as many days as possible during the period beginning with the initial release of each bird, or its release after capture for blood lead monitoring and ending with another capture at which blood lead concentration was determined. For days on which the roost location was not recorded, we interpolated the roost zone used by assuming that it was the same as that on the nearest day with data available. Overall, it was necessary to interpolate the roost zone on 27.2% of days, with the range of this proportion for individual birds being 11.1% to 59.9%. We had eligible data derived from 60 individual condors consisting of 322 pairs of blood lead measurements preceded by periods comprising, in total, 41,230 bird-days with known or interpolated roost locations.

Numbers of deer, elk and buffalo reported as killed by hunters in each zone in 2005–2007 were obtained from the Arizona Game and Fish Department and the Utah Department of Natural Resources. We estimated the number of carcasses and gut piles potentially contaminated with lead and left in the field for scavengers by using information collected on the proportion of kills made with lead ammunition and the number of lead-killed animals from which gut piles were brought in by hunters for safe disposal. We also assumed that in addition to the number of animals reported as killed with lead bullets, an additional 10% of that number were wounded and died unrecovered soon after, thereby becoming available to condors.

Analysis and statistical modeling of blood lead data
We assumed that, with no further ingestion, the relationship between blood lead concentration and time after ingestion of fragments of metallic lead could be described by a simple three compartment model, with one-way movement of lead between successive pairs of compartments. Although this model is a simplification, it has the advantage of requiring the estimation of only two parameters and seems likely to capture the main features of real changes in blood lead. We assumed that a constant proportion of the ingested lead enters the blood from the gut per unit time and that fragments are not expelled from the gut within the period that significant absorption is occurring. Hence, the proportion of the lead ingested that remains in the gut at time t (in days) since ingestion is given



 since ingestion is given by exp(−k1t), where k1 is a constant, and (1−exp(−k1t)) is the proportion of lead ingested that has moved from the gut to the blood by that time. We also assumed that a constant proportion per unit time of the lead present in the blood was lost to another compartment, such that the amount in the blood would decline by a proportion (1−exp(−k2)) per day in the absence of absorption. The quantity of lead in the blood, as a proportion of that ingested, is then given by the function

(1)
Assuming that blood volume is constant, blood lead concentration is proportional to g(t). Note that this expression approximates to g(t) = exp(−k2t) when k1 is much larger than k2. That is, when absorption from the gut is very rapid, blood lead concentration declines exponentially with time since ingestion. The model is illustrated for a single value of k2 and three values of k1 in Fig. 1.

Figure 1Models of the relationship between blood lead concentration and time since ingestion of metallic lead in California condors.
We next used the function g(t) to explore how the concentration of lead in the blood of an average condor would be expected to change over time, given the possibility of ingestion of lead on more than one day. We assumed that the condor spends some time in areas where there is a high risk each day of ingesting lead and some time in low risk areas. We imagined a large number of condors, all showing the same movement pattern. On each successive day, the average quantity of lead ingested by the birds would, if it was all absorbed immediately, increase the

When you report back after reading this I will post the rest after I quiz you

Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline JoJoDapyro

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2015, 01:27:11 pm »
What exactly are you attempting to prove? Lead may move out of the blood, but once in the blood it never leaves the body.

The estimated mortality rate due to lead in the absence of this program was sufficiently high that the condor population would be expected to decline rapidly.

Since the assumptions of the “maximum conceivable” scenario are extremely unlikely to apply to any real population of condors, this indicates that the Grand Canyon condor population is unlikely to be self-sustaining at current levels of exposure to lead.

The level of condor mortality caused by lead that would occur in the absence of chelation therapy and lead exposure reduction is of interest because it might not always be practical to locate birds daily and trap all condors routinely once or twice per year for blood lead monitoring, and implementation of lead exposure reduction schemes requires resources [2]. Could the reintroduced population persist if the lead exposure reduction and treatment programs ceased or were reduced in scope? What would be the effect of reducing exposure to spent lead ammunition throughout the range of this population?

This is saying exactly opposite of what you are arguing.
If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
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Offline Zuma

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Re: Condors and lead
« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2015, 01:44:08 pm »
I have no idea what you are getting at Jojo. ???
Please let it go. Just agree to disagree. :)
That is if you agree the birds are being abused. :-\


Can you answer me that Jojo??
 Are the birds being abused or not?? >:(

I have asked you a similar question on the more defined thread.
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.