Author Topic: Limb length principle question  (Read 6241 times)

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Offline PatM

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 09:17:15 am »
Dont bring me down with all the math crap, Pat....M

Imagine a static full drawn, now un-curl the last 7". The amount of limb bending wont change. At least I dont think it will :)

 The amount  of limb length won't but the amount of BEND in that length will change.

I'd agree there. I think it is a small amount though, especially when comparing a heavily reflexed tip to a static tip. I think on average it would compare to drawing the same bow another inch farther when hooks are added.
    You could trace the curve of two same length bows and see what the difference is at brace.  I think it's probably quite a bit more than an inch. That's why you hear that recurves increase set or potential for breakage.

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 09:21:27 am »
Perhaps. I might even have a few test bows. Not the same wood, but that is irrelevant.
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Offline Pappy

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 09:24:01 am »
I try and keep it as simple as possible, double the draw and add the non working part, what ever that is
is If want to be overly safe. :)
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Offline Mac43560

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016, 09:24:41 am »
I agree with Pat on the bow length per draw and the effect of the static.  You definitely have to consider working length.  TBB adds weight in the mass equation for static tips and that's built around working length with 8" handle/fade.  Also the mass equation handles recurve and reflex as separate entities to contend with.

Offline PatM

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2016, 09:31:31 am »
 You could also place a static on a grid and then draw the projected straightened limb tips out.  Surely that must equate to the bow being braced several inches higher?

Offline Badger

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2016, 09:50:34 am »
   I think the common bow length figure of 2 X draw plus 20% is just a good rule of thumb so bows don't stack and don't have to be too wide. Anything you do to a bow to increase the radius of a bending area means you need to make them wider and thinner. Most recurves are a bit shorter than the longbows but they are also usually wider.

Offline DC

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2016, 01:34:28 pm »
Just nit pickin' but I want to be sure.  You mean "decrease" the radius, don't you. As in bend the bow more.

Offline High-Desert

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2016, 02:13:18 pm »
The working limb equivalent to draw length rule is really just a starting suggestion to be on the safe side. I would have to say, just from my experience is that it is on the extremely safe side, of course this all depends on the piece of wood you are working with. So make the bow that you and the wood can agree on, if you want to be safe, then make the each limb equivalent to one draw length plus the handle section, just make your bow wider if you go short. Utilizing the mass principle will really help with this. Going shorter required you to go wider, in order to gain back the mass lost from shortening. But of course there is a limit.......

Eric
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Offline Badger

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2016, 02:45:48 pm »
Just nit pickin' but I want to be sure.  You mean "decrease" the radius, don't you. As in bend the bow more.

 Yep, I had it backasswards.

Offline Frodolf

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2016, 02:47:51 pm »
Jefficus, Of course I didn't mean that if you make the limbs parallel instead of tapering pyramid-style you can cut required limb length in half! Haha! That would be an awesome rule of thumb, though! The absence of a comma in the sentence you quoted is kind important ;)

I simply meant that if I want to make a bow shorter than my standard 65-67" ntn for a 28" draw – let's say 62" –  I make the limbs parallel about halfway from fades to the tips, then let them taper to narrow tips. Another way of putting it is that I add more wood, more mass, to make the bow take the extra strain of a shorter design. The draw back is that with that kind of wood placement you sort of have to make the tiller more elliptical, otherwise it'll take a lot of set right close to the fades. The elliptical tiller in combination with the bow being shorter increases stack, so I reflex/recurve the tips to counteract that. Hope that clarifies.   

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2016, 03:47:02 pm »
Jefficus, this question, and the whole discussion, are why this is a rule of thumb, and not an exact rule.  It's an interplay between length, leverage, limb to string angles, etc...and has to do with Badger's mass formula.  It always needs tiny adjustments, often to width.

Have you read the TBB's?  baker has some really good examples of how this works with his logical extreme Andaman/Holmegaard bow (which we are now more correctly calling a Mollegabet rather than Holmegaard).

  So, imagine a pyramid bow, with limbs as long as draw length. You can make that bow shorter IF you make it wider. BUT, if you keep doing this, ever shorter and wider, at some point the shorter bow gives bad leverage, bad string angle, and thus stacks more and stores less energy.  Likewise, you can go longer and narrower until you start to get efficiency losses due to limb length, weight, and string weight.  Eventually you are under-straining the bow, unless you adjust tiller.

Now consider a Mollegabet, with wide, flat, bending inner limbs, and the stiff, narrow outer limbs, same thing; total limb= draw length. This style has very favorable leverage due to the long stiff tips, and will hold that string angle better than the pyramid, BUT, since only the inner limb is bending the risk of extra set needs to be offset by moving more mass (width) down closer to the handle.  If total limb length stays the same, but you make the outer limb longer, you have to keep moving more of that mass to the inner limb.  The string angle stays more favorable because of the lever, but again as you change the ratios you hit a law of diminishing returns where you can't eliminate enough tip weight in the outer limb, or add enough width to the inner limb to help.

Next, imagine that pyramid bow from before, that was too short.  If you start adding a longer and longer handle, eventually, you regain your string angle and leverage, but it takes MORE added handle length to do this than it would take added LIMB length, because of where the bend is happening out at the tips. It's whip-tillered.  You can still have problems with the string angle.

Baker's pecan bow was basically a stiff long middle, WIDE bending midlimbs, with long stiff tips.  Almost a hybrid of the Sudbury bow with Mollegabet outer limbs, sort of.  In his case, more total limb length let him get away with less bending limb length, and PUT THAT BEND WHERE IT DID THE MOST GOOD.

Now, this gets really too general, but here are some "rules"  Bending enough limb LENGTH reduces strain, which reduces set. Bending in the right spots minimizes the EFFECTS of set. Bending enough limb WIDTH can compensate for bending less length, as far as set, but not as far as string angle. Bending bows too much close to the handle can induce high set.  Bending bows out by the tips can reduce leverage.  Bending anything anywhere too much is bad, and adding length can counter most of these problems within reason, but creates other problems.

So, the original limb length rule gives us a starting point: a decent balance between leverage and string angles, enough wood to bend, predictable set, and options about where to place limb mass and various bend radii, in several styles of essentially straight-limbed bows.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 07:07:10 pm by Springbuck »

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2016, 07:18:50 pm »

"I'd agree there. I think it is a small amount though, especially when comparing a heavily reflexed tip to a static tip. I think on average it would compare to drawing the same bow another inch farther when hooks are added."

This is about how I see it.  I started flipping tips on whitewood flatbows specifically to counter set they took.  Like a bow would take an inch and a half of set, then I flip 6" of the tip, which was usually stiff anyway, forward 1.5-2".  Usually that would bring draw weight up a tad, increase string tension at brace, but the bows usually would take on any more new set.  You could easily over-do it, of course.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 07:51:18 pm by Springbuck »

Offline loefflerchuck

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Re: Limb length principle question
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2016, 11:19:38 pm »
I enjoyed reading this. Type of wood, width, profile, backed or unbacked, One last thing to consider. If you are making the bow for yourself and not concerned with a long life you can fudge this. I have a 26" draw and sometimes like making 48" wood bows. Even with a perfect stave and using a caliper, I would not expect the bow to last years. It's quite dry where I live and bows tend to break before they take too much set. Unless I'm using hickory or yew.