Author Topic: I suck at this...  (Read 2350 times)

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Offline paulc

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I suck at this...
« on: April 07, 2017, 08:40:40 am »
So this is a piece of what seems to me perfectly good obsidian that ought to have an arrow head in it.  It is the 4th piece that I reduced to gravel yesterday after work.  I actually got some good flakes that stretched completely across the piece on all 4 starts yesterday.  But after perhaps 10-15 minutes of work on a piece I had broken all 4 into multiple pieces of mostly useless rock.  Anyone know of any knapping events coming up in the next couple months within say 4hrs of Savannah, GA?

THanks, 

Offline Parnell

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 08:58:51 am »
How long have you been doing this Paul?  As the expression goes...you gotta break A LOT of rock.

Sit back settle in get comfortable and analyze whats going on.  You've got to understand the principles of what's going on so understand how to set up and manipulate platforms and the correct way to grind the angles that you are striking the rock and the amount of pressure you are puting on the rock...WITH BOTH HANDS, left and right.  The tighter you grip your piece the less the energy travels.  Think holding a baby bird.  Don't overgrip your bopper, either.  I've found that most times you don't need much "backswing" with the bopper, and like with most sports and stuff, "follow through" is everything.  Abrade your edges.  Abrade your edges.  Abrade your edges.  Angles and pressure at which you abrade MATTER.

I'd say beginners get way to caught up in trying to get the point before getting an even preform.  Concentrate on making an oval with a nice even bifaced cross-section.  Then start thinking points.

Don't get frustrated.  It takes time. 
1’—>1’

Stringman

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2017, 09:26:22 am »
You said a mouthful, Stevo! Paul if at all possible, try to make it to the Classic. Gonna be lots of good instruction goin on there. And maybe a free rock or two will be handed out.  :-K

Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2017, 09:32:58 am »
Steve, very well said, I agree 100% about new knappers trying to go all the way on the first date :o Just try and make clean preforms. When it starts to get ugly grab another rock and make the cleanest preform that you can, after going thru all your rock go back and try thin your preform into a point, hopefully after all those preforms you will have learned how to then go to finishing into a point. Paul take your time and enjoy the ride, North Georgia knappin the end of April, Lots of knappers at the Tenn. classic, new knappin coming up in May weekend after the classic in Virgina. I'm thinking about going to the classic and working my over to the new Virginny knappin the next weekend. Don,t get discouraged it takes lots of practice at first, Knapping is a hobby of tonnage. Paul not sure if those knappins are within 4 hrs Check them out and maybe I,ll run into you at one of them. Bob

Offline paulc

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2017, 09:38:08 am »
I've only been serious since maybe the New Year.  I have busted a 5 gal bucket of very questionable stuff from OH that I collected myself, a 20lb box of Texas stuff off Ebay and this Obsidian, 20lb I guess also off of ebay.  I have a bunch of glass, maybe 1/4" thick I got somewhere that I get even worse results from.  It cracks and flakes every which way.

North GA is definitely a possibility as I used to work outside Dahlonega for those of you that know N GA.  Love those mountains.  Where/when is the N GA event?

Thanks,

Paul

Offline Outbackbob48

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2017, 09:55:49 am »
Paul, North Georgia, knappin is April 20 to 22 , just west of Atlanta. This is probably the largest knappin in the south. :KN Bob

Offline bjrogg

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2017, 12:20:14 pm »
Paul as saw someone else on here said one time. That's strange usually everyone just picks it up just like that.lol. So easy a caveman can do it. Honestly less than 1/1,000,000,000th of the worlds population has a clue how much goes into making stone points and tools. It's a lot like golf, if you don't let it totally frustrate you it can be very relaxing. I got started in all this primitive stuff by knapping. I then made arrows and then bows, I think knapping is the hardest and also the hardest to explain or teach. Like said try not to get to frustrated. One thing that really helped me was just take that bucket of scrap chunks and just practice on them. At first I didn't even try to make anything just did some pressure flaking or maybe some percussion. There's less pressure and disappointment when your taking some useless chuncks of stone than stone you payed good $$ for. Eventually I even made some points from some of these worthless chuncks. Good Luck I hope the light bulb turns on for you, it is a fascinating hobby.
Bjrogg
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Offline mullet

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2017, 03:01:04 pm »
Steve hit the rock on the head. Slow down and don't just beat on it and hope a point will show up. Grind all of the brittle, sharp edges and set up platforms. study where you are going to hit and try to make the flake run where you want it to.

And, I live about 4 hours south of you by way of I-95 and I-4.
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline Dakota Kid

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2017, 05:55:50 pm »
It took me almost a year before I felt my point were ready to hunt with and they are still twice as thick as those produced by the more elite members of the board. I'll give you the advise that I would have given myself if I could have. I don't know if you suffer the same mistakes I was making, but it's good advice regardless.

Abrate- Get rid of those sharp edges, especially on man made glass and obsidian. If the initial energy of your "bop" is being robbed by turning a thin sharp edge into powder you'll never get a good feel for the amount of force you need to drive the flake you're attempting.

Slow down- It's really fun to smash rock, period! It's easy to get carried away.  Stay calm go slow. Remember your trying to smash this rock in a very deliberate and almost delicate way.

Understand a crystal matrix- This one's kinda out there, but it's something I noticed and it helped. Just because the steps(or other undesirable defect) is on the other side of your preform it doesn't mean it won't affect a flake taken from the opposite side.  If I screwed up the edge I was working on, I just spun the piece and started pounding that side without doing anything to clean up the area I just butchered. Through trial and error I found that you have to work the piece as a whole not just move from spot to spot.
The forces that bind a crystal together are unique and amazing. It's why quartz will give a flash of light and an electrical current when broken. It's has magnetic components as well, as does most electrical phenomena. When I started thinking of the binding forces as being magnetic it seemed to improve my attempts greatly.
So,... if you have a bulky area, it is pulling the all the other thinner area toward it with more force. This area of more mass can cause a flake to take an unexpected drive, terminate and form a step, or countless other undesirable things to happen. This is where working the piece as a whole comes into play. After every flake, look the whole piece over again to see what's changed. Check your centerline, looking for the largest areas of mass. That's where your next flake should come from, because that's where the greatest  force that holds everything together is coming from. That way every flake you take off requires a little less force to come off than the one before.
Bear in mind I don't know if this is actually what is happening from a physics stand point, but this line of thought brought about my most noticeable improvements and me finally feeling like I'm starting to get the hang of this.

All rock is different- In the beginning it helps to have a one that behaves as expected. A uniform consistency and a medium to light hardness is what is best to learn on. For me the clearer obsidian and regular glass fractured too easily and just seemed to want to crumble. The texas chert was good until it came time to pressure flake because it takes so much force to do so. I had my best results early on with dacite, noviculite, and keokuk. All are easy to flake without having the tendency to want to crumble.

This was a hard skill to even begin to develop, but that's why I like it. I've alway been the guy who hears "What, you got another new hobby?". When I get good at something it gets boring and I'm on to something new. With the knapping and bowyering however, I don't see that happening any time soon.
I could keep spouting obscure hard to follow advice all day, but that would contradict the "taking it slow" tip. Keep us posted on your progress and keep asking questions.   
I have nothing but scorn for all weird ideas other than my own.
~Terrance McKenna

Offline Tower

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2017, 06:35:08 pm »
Everyone here has given you a weath of knowledge to abide by.  The only thing I can add is when you start with a piece like that 95% will be lost in reduction.  Sometimes it's better to loose length or width early in the reduction phase.
He who sacrifices freedom for a security deserves neither one.  Benjamin Franklin!

Offline paulc

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2017, 06:38:56 pm »
Thanks all for the advice.  It sounds like DK and I have the "master" and move on thing in common.  I have too many hobbies.  And I like the idea of tackling the largest mass first rather than the easy or obvious flake...hadn't thought of that as a strategy.

Mullet I may take you up on your implied offer as you are closer than the knap-in and I am not sure that weekend will work for my wife.  I'll pm you if I can find some free weekends which are few and far between until after the summer at this point.

And I was doing pretty well with only trying to get to second base with my tougher stone...but I was probably expecting too much progress the other night with the obsidian.  Never was very good with the ladies either  ::)

Paul

Offline Trapper Rob

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2017, 09:38:20 pm »
If you go to some knappins get yourself some practice buckets that's what I did you learn a lot from them.

Offline Dakota Kid

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2017, 11:52:27 pm »
Thunder chert (aka toilet bowl) is a great material to practice percussion flaking on. It's not the best to pressure flake, but if you're like me percussion is where I need to improve. Ask at your preferred hardware if the have any damaged stuff that is getting tossed or ask a local plumber to save a few lids and tanks for you. Personally, I tend stay away from the used bowl parts.
I have nothing but scorn for all weird ideas other than my own.
~Terrance McKenna

Offline Tracker0721

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Re: I suck at this...
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2017, 10:16:40 pm »
Still believe I need your address for the PITH sir if you'd PM me. I used a lot of stone to learn on and am still learning. In the hundreds of lbs of obsidian range. And somedays I'll do great, other days I'll break 6 arrowheads and decide it's the weathers fault haha
May my presence go unnoticed, may my shot be true, may the blood trail be short. Amen.