Author Topic: the real ticket is "group tuning"  (Read 868 times)

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Offline willie

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the real ticket is "group tuning"
« on: October 08, 2017, 10:08:53 am »
OK, I stole TSA's comment from another thread to start a new one.

Quote
in my experience,  bareshaft and fletched arrows will tell the same story just differently.

where a bareshaft will say throw the nock left( so kinda point right!), that will indicate a weak shaft, whereas the same weak, but fletched shafts will impact to the left, this is due to the stabilisation factor of the fletches.
so if your FLETCHED shafts, as a grouping are impacting to the right, yes that is stiff, if you stripped the feathers off, that bare shaft would show nock right, and point left!
 
however bareshafting can really expose errors in your shooting form, and so, in turn, tell lies!
make sure your form is good, take your time, shoot slowly- dont fatigue- even use a clicker just for the tuning- focus on your release. ( or look up Rick Welch and his method of shooting- its a fool proof way of ensuring the same drawlength and same back tension ever time!!)

-dont cant the bow
-shoot groupings
-start close- otherwise you will break shafts!!!

i like to get in the ball park with the bareshafts, thereafter i follow Adcocks advice,
the real ticket is "group tuning" shoot a group of bareshafts and a group of fletched shafts, and get the final points of impact the same- use groups, 3 or 4 shafts!
http://www.acsbows.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/tuninglongbowsandrecurves.pdf


My question is how reasonable is it to expect to be able to bareshaft tune and shoot to point of aim with a wide handle type arrowpass as typically found on a primitive bow?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:11:23 pm by willie »

Offline Pat B

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 11:56:27 am »
With properly spined arrows it is as simple as with a center shot bow. Typically for a wide handle bow you will want to start with arrows spined about 10# lighter than the draw weight.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 05:29:51 pm »
hey Willie,
i know its counterintuitive when thinking about the wider arrow pass and that the shafts will impact the same.
but Like Pat says, the further from center you go- the lighter spine you need to shoot, and the closer to( or cut  past center) center- the stiffer the shaft required.
so for most self bows about 10# lighter than your bow, and cut closer to center about 10 to 15# heavier than your bow, now this all changes with drawlength and arrow length.


now if someone could tell me how to post pics from the pc, i can post all the spine charts here! :D


Offline willie

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 11:45:11 am »
Thanks Pat and Wayne. I think that I understand the need for the lighter spine required to get around the width of the handle.
The point of aim of my arrow head is offset quite a bit to the left of the bow centerline.with a wide handle. If I adjust my bareshaft spine so that I am shooting to point of aim, what should i do about nock left or nock right?

Wayne, you can attach jpg, png, etc by clicking    - Attachments and other options , then browse

Offline Pat B

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 03:30:27 pm »
Willie, at full draw your arrow point should be pointing at your target or at least close.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 09:01:07 pm »
Pat is absolutely correct, arrow nocked, and arrow at full draw on a wider arrow pass will be two different pictures.
if you were using a modern ::) bow that was cut past center- so that the  arrow was pretty much on the centerline of the bow, only then would the sight picture look the same at just knocked and at full draw.
if that makes sense.
dont be shy to ask, and  ask again till you get the answer you are looking for. sometimes its very difficult to get the picture out of one persons head into another persons head.
you keep asking, we will keep explaining  until it all makes sense. dont be shy!no one was born with this knowledge pre-programmed, everyone had to learn it!  ;)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:58:36 am by TSA »

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 05:28:11 am »
Willie, re- reading the second part of your question, i will try and address that.
the primary purpose of the bareshaft tuning is to get the bareshaft sticking into the target with no left or right alignment, when it does that- then that will be the spine that matches your bow. thats the key here. if i understand your concern correctly, different spines on your self bow, will not create a different sight picture,in other words, irrespective of spine of the shaft, the sight picture's will all look the same. the softer/weaker spines  will simply better match your bow better from a flight perspective, once the arrow leaves the bow!

using split vision "aiming" as Howard Hill used, is a very effective method of shooting, you may find as you shoot more and more- you might start to notice the arrow less at full draw, but at least intially it helps you get a windage alignment on the target, which just removes one of the variables from true instinctive shooting, which is a great help in the beginning for many folk, myself included.
now the split vision, where you focus primarily on the intended target, and the arrow is seen in your peripheral vision, and you align it for the left and right  variation, whilst relying on your instinctive shooting to adjust for the up and down( elevation), will only be relevant once the bow is at full draw, your arrow point at just knocked, and not drawn back will probably be no where near your point of impact( unless of course you had a center cut bow). drawing back to full draw, will change the sight picture, and thats the sight picture you need to be looking at, not the un-drawn picture- dont worry about that one- it will naturally be out of whack.

so in short, the pre shot sight picture has nothing to do with the spine of the arrow.
but the spine is important, for the performance of the arrow in flight, will ensure better accuracy, better recovery from paradox, and better penetration.

now here are some curve balls!!

always do your bare shafting with the bow vertical- i find this the toughest!- otherwise you will get confusing readings- imagine if you cant your bow over, and your arrow shows nock left- which is weak for a right handed shooter, but now the arrow looks like it is both weak and nock high, when in reality it may not be nock high!

make sure your form is good, inconsistant form will show different results, thats why dont make adjustments with just one shot, shoot multiple shots, and look at the average.
getting consistant draw length is the key here.
imagine that by trimming a shaft a 1/4" at a time, makes difference on the spine of the shaft, imagine now that by short drawing or over drawing by a 1/4" , that it too will make a difference on the spine performance of the arrow. ( i can go into more detail on this point if you would like)

all of this is only relevant when you are bareshafting, once you are fletched, those minor differences and errors will be compensated for by the correction ability of the fletching.

so in short, make every effort to make the bareshafting as accurate as you can, but dont beat yourself up, once the shafts are fletched up, they will cover a comedy of errors, trhats why we do it, its a shooting aid. the fletching is there to fix our errors, they aint just for purdy, or cos thats what an arrow has.they are a stabilizer-like fins on a rocket!! :)

Offline willie

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 12:51:09 pm »
Wayne, thanks for the practical tips on bareshafting. What I am reading here is that once the bareshaft arrow flies dead on, one should not worry if a point-on aim is working out or not, but one can develop a more "instinctive' sight picture if it is not?

Don't know how the sight picture of an undrawn arrow crept into the discussion, not my question at all, but accurate descriptive writing is not easy sometimes.
thanks

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 04:10:27 pm »
yup mate, it can get kinda confusing, i guess thats how the notorious Facebook battles start ::)

yes you can "aim" truly instinctively, without ever looking at the shaft. but at full draw the split vision can be a great help too. as with  a properly tuned setup- the arrow point should be either in line, or very close to being inline( dependant on your head position) with the target.

i agree that a well tuned setup is key, this is one way of doing it, others will take a bunch of different arrows out and shoot them till they find one that works,  then replicate that. some paper tune!
whatever works, is best i guess! as long as it is well tuned.
now if you start shooting broadheads- they will tell a different story again- and may look contrary to other lessons learnt in bareshafting.
cheers mate

Offline loon

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 11:41:58 am »
So if the arrows are tuned with the bow vertical, will they be tuned "enough" if it's canted?

Thanks Wayne

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 07:52:48 pm »
its ok to cant the bow- but then just remember your results are canted too, dont cant the bow- then try and read vertical results- so imagine a cross hair on the target- just rotate the target until the vertical lines angle matches the cant angle of the bow- make sense?
so when you read it- you can hold it back vertical again and read the quadrants as normal!
I am sure that from some technical point that the gravitational pull hs some effect on one side more than the other when it is canted- but one is starting at 3 yards- and working back from there, i think the variance will, in reality, be so negligible, so as to not warrant any concerns!
good luck mate

Offline Stick Bender

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 12:04:32 pm »
This is a interesting thread thanks for all the info TSA  the arrows in the pic are for this years hunting bow I ran out of time tuning them before hunting season but that's my average pattern at 20 yards when I bare shafted them they where going to point of aim with the tail slightly high and left they are 55-60s Douglas fir the rear 9 in. is tapered to the knocks so I'm not sure if it's my arrows or my form and release also when bare shaft shooting most times the bow was slightly canted mussel memory hard to over come I'm going to re bare shaft test them & concentrate on keeping the bow strait but I'm shooting the fletched arrows slightly left and low but I'm left eye dominate and shoot right handed on the string & have a tendencies to shoot left tell I spend more time with the bow , the arrows are ok but not totally happy with them I'm shooting 47 lb @29 1/4 FF string the bow is averaging 172 fps 509 grain arrow with these arrows slightly slower @ 520 grain 
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 08:54:44 am »
i too find it very hard to bareshaft with my bow totally vertical, and my question is, if you have your form down with a canted bow- i wonder if your form suffers with the bow vertcal, i mean one might torque the string, or your bow grip may change etc
so what i like to do is shoot the way i am used too, then just view my target  at the same angle. in other words, if you are right handed, and shooting canted, and your arrow shows nock left and a bit nock high, its probably only the spine, and not actually nock high. does that make sense- i am even confused by what i am saying, i think i need to take a few pics ;D

Tail Tapering a shaft really does nothing other than improving the foc, now dont let that sound like its an insignificant thing, its not, any adjustments made  in improving FOC, while not adding to the overall weigh excessively is a good thing!! and thats what tapering will do!
some say it effects the dynamic spine- cant say that i have seen a significant difference!
its not about clearing the fletches from the riser- as bar the first 2 or 3" behind the point, a well tuned shaft will not touch the riser again.

allow me to tell you how effective fletching is :D :D
i shot fletched #55 shafts out of one of my bow for years- i had kinda bareshafted ::), and they shot well, i took deer with them, i shot a ton of stumps with them, there was a slight waggle to them( that usually indicates weak spine) but they shot and grouped well. Until one day i finally watched this bareshafting video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOPiriLbcM
then went out and bareshafted them properly- now i find my bow needs #70 to #72 shafts- its because i have a 31.5" draw, and when i compare my stats with our spine charts- they match up- go figure !!!! ( chart below for the longbow in attachments)

the biggest external factor that can screw you around when bareshafting, is your form, a small glitch in form, will throw off the bareshafts, especially because you have no fletching to help correct the mistake.
your mistakes will be AMPLIFIED when bareshafting.
also attached another diagramme that may help with form issues when bareshafting, assuming that your spine is correct.
refer to our chart for spine- it is surprisingly accurate. the  chart is for longbows with a shelf- typically glass bows.
we have a self bow one too!
check your real draw length, check the bows draweight at that drawlength- especially if its a self bow, and may have taken a wee bit of set over time.


so to answer you question more to the point than i have above.
1. get an accurate draw length and draw weight
2. check the spine charts
3.get a test kit with shafts above and below that suggested spine group
4.then bareshaft according to the video above

in conclusion, what i am saying ( as i have experienced this first hand ::) ) is make sure all your stats are accurate- otherwise the fletching will correct a multitude of sins.


i will try and get some pics up today of the canting bow/bareshaft tuning issue!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:04:29 am by TSA »

Offline TSA

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 09:07:07 am »
yes Loon,
if they were well tuned with the bow vertical, thereafter it wont make a difference on the canting- they are matched to the bow, irrespective of bow angle- just as long as your form stays the same!

Offline Stick Bender

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Re: the real ticket is "group tuning"
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 10:08:22 am »
Thanks for that info TSA it was very telling in my case I'm going to bare shaft again this week end and maybe trime one 1/4 in. To raise the spine a bit and see if there is any improvement in them I was starting to suspect a slightly weak spine my problem is at my 29 1/4 or some times over zealous 29 1/2  and a 1 3/8 thick handle & most arrows only 32 in to start leaves me very little room with out bringing the broad heads close to my finger on my back up bow & the same type tapered arrows & using 50-55s the are absolutely flawless bare shaft or fletched and once you get arrows flying like that it drives you nuts when the rest of your bows don't shoot like that so I'm hoping to get some last minute changes in.
If you fear failure you will never Try !