Author Topic: Any commercial pilots?  (Read 215 times)

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Online sleek

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Any commercial pilots?
« on: March 15, 2019, 05:07:09 am »
Anyone know what the heck is going on with the 737 max? Having airplanes crash that I help build is getting old.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Pat B

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 05:52:25 am »
Seems like a software glitch but that's just a guess.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline rebsr52339

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 12:25:12 pm »
Sleek, you are not to worry about your integration into the assembly procedure. That process started long before you entered the equation. As a retired Aeronautical Engr. I had many sleepless nights during the 60s and 70s. The thought that a small thing as a micro switch or an explosive bolt failing at launch along with a host of other minor things that could go wrong, was always on the table and of great concern. In the “old days”, the threshold for safety where human life was concerned was a clear 10X. If you tested something 5 times and it worked, that was good. If human life was involved test it a minimum of 10 times. I remember Von Braun saying one time. Gentlemen we will make ALL the mistakes here on the ground, not up there. They will find the answer. Shame people had to die.  :'(
REB

Online sleek

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 12:43:11 pm »
It weighs heavy still.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline jeffp51

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 04:28:49 am »
It sounds to me like a software glitch.  I think this is a common problem in our day-that we trust too much in technology, not in human training and judgement.  From what I have read the computer thought the nose was pitching too high and forced the nose down to avoid a stall, but the ground avoidance radar thought the plane was too low and tried to pitch the plane up--never mind what the actual pilot wanted.

Offline bjrogg

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 05:36:11 am »
Just a private pilot. Also a farmer who has been running GPS, auto steer, swath control, mapping and recording my seed and inputs, using variable rate applications.
This stuff is amazing. It really can do almost anything I do more accurately than I can. It isn't free of problems though. It seems every year they have a software update to install. I dread them. I'm almost positive there will be a glitch. A glitch at 5 MPH on the ground in the middle of a field isn't quite the problem as a glitch at 150 MPH climbing at low elevation just above stall speed. When my auto steer screws up on my tractor I simply grab the steering wheel turn it where I want it to go and auto steer disengages. Granted sometimes it takes me awhile to figure out the auto steer isn't working properly and it's fairly rare that this happens. It's way to early to jump to a cause for this incident. I have little information and none really reliable. I have read that stall prevention system my have gotten incorrect airspeed reading. Thinking speed was to low forcing nose down to gain airspeed. Many things can cause airspeed indicator to be wrong. I believe it's even on these high tech planes just measuring the difference between the static air from static port on side of fuselage to the ram air entering the Pitot tube. We always put a cover over these openings to keep bugs out. I have had airspeed failures in my plane and they are a bit scary. In my Small plane though with manual controls I do have feedback from my controls. I know what they should feel like in normal operations. I also know what they feel like approaching stall speed and entering a stall. I'm conditioned to lower my nose and my plane is even designed to when in a stall fall in a nose low additude. Flying by wire inherently unstable aircraft (not say this plane is) you really have to trust your instruments and so do your systems. It would probably have taken awhile to determine a system failure then try to correct it with most possibly erroneous information from another faulty systems. Usually more than one thing that cause the incident. Usually a chain of events with multiple mistakes and climbing out at low altitude is the most vulnerable time with the least amount of time for corrections. I truly hope they figure it out soon. I'm sure the tin can kickers are working at it as I type this.
Bless all the souls onboard and their survivors.
Bjrogg
A hot cup of coffee and a beautiful sunrise

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 10:24:49 pm »
I was reading a thread on this on an engineering site. It sounds like it's been "improved to the point of uselessness" .
The story I heard goes something like this.
I think if a sensor plays up or glitches the plane can think it's going to stall, so it forces a nose down adjustment... this used to be simple to over ride. But on the latest MAX version, they've "improved" it and the over ride procedure hasn't been properly updated/trained and takes too long anyway.  >:(

Put it this way, I wouldn't knowingly fly in one.
Found this vid on Youtube, but couldn't be bothered to watch it all the way through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlinocVHpzk&t=355s
Del
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 11:21:17 pm by Del the cat »
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Offline bjrogg

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 04:34:31 am »
Del they have done the same thing to tractors. Our newest one is a pain in the a$$. It has so many sensors that constantly fail or give false readings. I always say they need a sensor to tell the tractor that it's just a bad sensor so it will ignore the sensor. Instead it derates everything so the tractor will only go 5 MPH and not perform half its functions. The sensors are about $500 and I'm sure they are made as inexpensive as possible.
I think the technology is amazing, but when so much depends on a sensor it better be fail proof.
It is amazing what they have done with space craft that travel in such harsh environments.
Bjrogg
A hot cup of coffee and a beautiful sunrise

Offline bjrogg

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 05:14:08 am »
Interesting video Del. I watched the whole thing. The dog didn't seem as interested as I was. I had heard a bit about the engines being to big. It's not so much to powerful but their physical size requires they are place in a different position. This make stall recovery a different animal. All my stall training in small plane required lower nose first, then full throttle gain airspeed then maintain or gain altitude while maintaining airspeed.
Seems the position of these physically larger engines makes full throttle not a option. It would cause because of their placement nose high additude. Trust can't be increased until airspeed is gained if I understand correctly. The only way to get out of stall is to lower nose and trade altitude for airspeed with slow input of additional trust. Looks easy in the simulator but goes against every instinct that's been conditioned into this small aircraft pilot. Also seems a shame not to be able to use all that thrust to gain airspeed. Also jack screws I've had the pleasure of using on the farm are famous for getting stuck when they are run to the end of their threads. Hopefully are more dependable than the ones we use.
Bjrogg

Bjrogg
A hot cup of coffee and a beautiful sunrise

Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Any commercial pilots?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2019, 10:20:27 am »
Re: the jack screws, I saw part of a tv blurb that stated the Jack screws in both crashes had stuck, or at least man functioned.  Not real sure I interpreted that correctly, though.  Bad scene anyway, and TSA/flight crews don't like parachute issue comments!   Makes me wonder about all the anti collision sensors being put into cars! 
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry