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How to make a lower poundage, yet full size English longbow?

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Gimlis Ghost:
Well you provide food for thought.
The bow staves Pope examined could not have been stored where the arms chests the recovered finished bows were found. The lower decks were not accessible in 1836 only the stern castle.

I'd be interested in why you believe

--- Quote ---The other huge factor is the arrow - the vast majority of the MR arrows found would have been useless shot from bows less than 140lb.
--- End quote ---
Since Pope managed 245-250 yard shots with his MR LB replica at 75 lb draw weight.


Do you ever use the 36-37 inch arrow with length of draw at 32" or more?
By Law each able bodied man had to keep a minimum of twelve 3/4 length arrows (compared to the "English Standard arrows" with his bow.
Some arrows were intended for close to medium range accuracy and penetration, others were specifically for maximum range.
Last I read on the subject it was believed Long Bows of 80-100 pound pull were for medium range shots at individual targets.

Its also accepted that the Bowmen on board the Mary Rose were the exception rather than the rule, hand picked highly trained well paid professionals who did nothing else, they did not represent the average bowman of that era or any other.
Its not unlikely that such men would have more than one bow each specialized for an intended role in battle.

When Mary rose went down almost all the men on deck were trapped under the anti boarding nets, any who were armed rotted away with their weapons while the arms chests below decks were preserved.

Since there was quite a long period between call to arms and closing with the enemy why were the arms chests not opened? Could it be that the designated bowmen already had their personal picked bows in hand when the ship heeled over and sank?

Are there any sources that describe the deployment of bowmen during a sea battle or that era?
Before heavy cannon became available archers and the occasional ballista were the only ranged weapons available. There was no competition for deck space with teams of gunners and lines of powder monkeys.

IIRC Seamen were exempt from bow training. Bowmen would be more like Marines than regular crew.
In a boarding melee bowmen would be employed picking off individuals at close range while the rest of the crew held the enemy back with pole arms and hand weapons.

Spaces on deck or in the rigging where a bowman could use the longest and heaviest bows was very limited even on the largest vessels of the day. The stern castle provided the best platform for raking the enemy decks with medium to long range volley fire .
No doubt the heaviest bows were best suited for fire arrows to set the enemy's sails and rigging alight.

WillS:

--- Quote from: Gimlis Ghost on July 06, 2021, 01:39:21 pm ---
I'd be interested in why you believe

--- Quote ---The other huge factor is the arrow - the vast majority of the MR arrows found would have been useless shot from bows less than 140lb.
--- End quote ---
Since Pope managed 245-250 yard shots with his MR LB replica at 75 lb draw weight.
--- End quote ---

Because the current distance record is just 40 yards further than that with a 170lb bow and a full weight Mary Rose approximation arrow.  What Pope was doing and using I have no idea but his information and research is so far behind the current experimental archaeology and data that it's not hugely useful or pertinent any more.  Even books published recently are full of misinformation and out of date opinions such as natural fibre bowstrings only being able to support 100lb bows.

For example, you claim Pope states "Those staves were 6 feet 4 3/4 inches (76") each, which proved to be too long to be efficient resulting in a low draw weight and sluggish performance. If used as they were they would have been practically useless." and yet that's an inch shorter than the AVERAGE Mary Rose bow at 77" which perform beautifully, as do bows made quite a bit longer.  I've made a couple that are close to 7 feet in length which shoot beautifully when paired with a good arrow.  The information is out there, I think you just haven't found it yet! 

If you take a fairly average Mary Rose arrow as an example - let's say MR82A1892/9 as that's one I've measured and copied myself a number of times - you're talking about a 30" long Populus nigra shaft with a 12mm head, a heavy taper down to 10mm a few inches from the head and then a gradual taper to around 8mm at the nock.  Shoot that from any bow under 120lb say, and it'll fly like a brick wall.  You need at least 120lb to push it far enough to do any sort of damage at the other end, and around 140lb to really get the best from it.  There were much, much bigger arrows than 1892/9 on the ship, some even thicker than 1/2" in diameter.

One thing I highly recommend if this stuff is of interest to you is to get yourself a copy of Weapons Of Warre and you'll be able to find up-to-date answers to the rest of your questions - including accurate measurements of each bow, the arrows and some reasonably current data on replicas and the testing thereof.  You'll also be able to see the information on the bows that were actually fully braced when the ship sank, and compare those with the unbraced bows ready for use - spoiler alert, they're exactly the same   ;)

Gimlis Ghost:

--- Quote ---For example, you claim Pope states
--- Quote ---"Those staves were 6 feet 4 3/4 inches (76") each,
--- End quote ---
which proved to be too long to be efficient resulting in a low draw weight and sluggish performance. If used as they were they would have been practically useless." and yet that's an inch shorter than the AVERAGE Mary Rose bow at 77" which perform beautifully, as do bows made quite a bit longer.  I've made a couple that are close to 7 feet in length which shoot beautifully when paired with a good arrow.  The information is out there, I think you just haven't found it yet!
--- End quote ---

That proves the point of the Mary Rose bow staves recovered from the stern castle in 1836 being unfinished as Pope stated they had to be. His experiment followed exactly the stages described by Toxophilus with the bow vastly improved in draw weight and range at every step.
Your calculations are off a bit.

--- Quote ---"Those staves were 6 feet 4 3/4 inches (76") each,
--- End quote ---
You should have written 76 3/4 inches which would be only 1/4 in shorter than the 77 inches you state as the average length.

Of course a properly finished bow will shoot well, that was not in question, it was whether a unfinished rough stave could shoot worth a darn, which they won't. Heck the unfinished staves were three and a half inches around a foot from the tips. They were obviously a work in progress.
(Edited to add. It turns out eight of these staves were recovered by 1841.)

You seem to believe that every bowman could draw a 120 pound bow. My nephew when a high school football player routinely bench pressed 380 pounds, not everyone who ever played high school football could bench press 380 pounds.
In medieval times few of those called to the king's banners was in great physical condition to begin with. They certainly weren't a race of giants. England in fact has few natural sources of vitamins , it's food crops have always been limited. This was one of the most serious problems for the civilian population during WW2 when imported foods were often in short supply due to the U-boat campaign. Not to mention scurvy which haunted the Royal Navy for centuries.
I don't doubt that among a company of the King's own hand picked professional archers that at least a few could draw a bow no other bowmen aboard could even begin to draw.
I don't know if they used the foot bow method or not, but every other military that depended on bows did so in certain circumstances. Pope tried his MR LB as a foot bow drawing with both hands and found the range was the same as when firing in the normal manner. He wasn't expecting any increase in range he was just testing the method.

A 200 pound bow would be courting diminishing returns. It would work best with a heavy projectile such as an incendiary or broad rigging cutter than with the standard sheath arrow. More of an anti material weapon than anti personnel, A good horse killer as well on land. The physical exertion of trying to fire ten to 12 arrows per minute for hours at a time with such a bow would put most athletes in a cardiac care ward.
I'll have to do some digging to find the details but IIRC Henry the 8th made a bet with his best bowman about besting a record shot at a match. The bowman won and received lands and a title as his reward. The range stated was far less than the 280 yard modern record you mention so apparently such shots were not at all common if even obtainable in those days.

PS
The Guardsman's name was Barlow. King Henry told him "beat them all and you shall be the Duke of Archers", Barlow beat the best shot of the day and was given the title of Duke of Shoreditch.
That is not all there is to the story but all I can find at the moment. Barlow was also given some sort of government post which he served at till his death of old age.
The source I originally found on this gave the range and more details of his rewards.
King Henry himself impressed many nobles by hitting targets repeatedly at 240 yards.

meanewood:
Hi Will

Welcome back to activity on this forum.

Bet you missed this type of discussion?

WillS:

--- Quote from: meanewood on July 06, 2021, 09:02:06 pm ---Hi Will

Welcome back to activity on this forum.

Bet you missed this type of discussion?

--- End quote ---

 ;D I don't know why I bother sometimes!  Hope you're well mate.

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