Author Topic: 3 holmgaards  (Read 13717 times)

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Offline Will B

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2021, 08:48:39 pm »
Nice batch of Osage staves, Ed. Love those snakey staves!  Can’t wait to see what you make with them.

Offline rps3

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2021, 10:08:43 pm »
Thats a beautiful sight...nice thick rings too! Enjoy!

Offline BowEd

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2021, 10:58:20 pm »
Yes the rings are very nice.You must be able to zoom in on the picture.I left the snaky staves wide.I'll get the bark and sapwood off.Shellack them and get a centerline on them to see what I got.Then let mother nature do her thing drying them.
I'm not confused about what my bows are.I am a dutchmen though.
The snaky tree is a tree with a 4' tall 3' across for sure main trunk with snaky bark.Then three or maybe four 16" thick limbs coming out like pipes and branching out a good 40 foot wide.The snaky bark pattern continued on out even into the less diameter limbs.Probably a good 35 to 40 feet tall altogether.I say is a tree because we did not kill it.
Sam told me another tree like it was about 50 yards away along a ridge for years till someone removed it to put a fence line in.We looked a good half a mile each way from this tree to find more but did'nt see any.I know I've walked many a mile looking for osage trees for bows over the last 12 years and this is the first time I've come across one like this.
I did see some maybe 4 or 5 of the thickest,straightest,and longest mulberry tree trunks I've seen in quite a while and 1 wonderful impressive pipe straight 16" thick 40' tall red cedar with no branches on 1 side too.Sam has owned that land for over 23 years.
I traded him a semi heavy duty Viking table top sewing machine for those logs.They sew their own clothes being Amish.He has 12 kids.8 boys and 4 girls.They will run the sewing machine with an air pump motor.I still have my heavy duty singer I use for my leather work and other things.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 05:43:03 am by BowEd »
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline Bob Barnes

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2021, 11:46:33 pm »
Ed...you have been busy!  The staves look great and I'm looking forward to seeing the bows that they make.   :OK  It sounds like you also have a few fine mulberry staves to get later...a good find.  Can't wait to hear the story about cutting this wood and see what you have once the bark is off.
Seems like common sense isn't very common any more...

Offline BowEd

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2021, 11:50:57 pm »
Yea busy enough to not get done some things that need doing.....Ha Ha.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 11:54:18 pm by BowEd »
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline Flyonline

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2021, 04:47:20 am »
Beautiful, I do love the look of those lever bows.

Cat didn't seem too impressed though  (lol)

Offline BowEd

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2021, 08:08:10 am »
If the cat did make bows that survived and lived over a very long period of time I would consider his or her points of bow making.....Ha Ha.
The cat is 1 of five that Robin helped raise on the front porch throughout the winter.We have them here amongst others to catch mice,and that they do very well.In the fall many times they will tag along as I go to the deer stand to hunt in the woods.Much like a dog.In fact that is what they are doing too "hunting" only in the most primitive way that is out there.I respect that.
In fact they stay hanging around my stand as I'm in it.They are a good alarm type system for me telling me something is coming.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 04:09:11 pm by BowEd »
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline willie

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2021, 02:38:14 pm »
I'm not confused about what my bows are.I am a dutchmen though.

Lol, a little back history for the new guys, as this was discussed a while back.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/holmgards-are-they-all-the-same-t23167.html

very nice bows Ed.

Offline gifford

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2021, 04:04:21 pm »
Willie, thanks for posting the link to PaleoPlanet.

As I read it, it occurred to  me that I had read it before but forgot where it was.

I'm finishing up a Mollie now, osage. I'll have it at MoJAM as it needs a bit of tweaking with a form and heat gun.

Offline BowEd

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2021, 04:12:37 pm »
Yes I've been in those type of discussions before in the past.
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline Santanasaur

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2021, 10:13:45 am »
Awesome bows Ed. Great finishes and it’s nice to see the variety in species.

Offline diliviu

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2021, 01:57:31 pm »
Incredible bows! Outstanding in all aspects.

Offline AndrewS

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2021, 08:56:07 pm »
Your bows look great. It is obvious that you are a very good bowyer and that you get so much out of wooden bows that many glass bow makers cannot.The tiller is spot on  for a bow with stiff lever ends.

I don't think they are Holmegaard bows, though.
Two old elm bows were found in a bog near the Danish town of Holmegaard.
Both in fragments and only one complete.
Both bows have in common that they were built from a sapling, the round outside of the elm is the back of the bow and the belly of the bow is the inside of the elm scraped flat.
In both bows there is no real stepped taper in the width of the limbs.
Exactly how the bow was tillered can only be surmised in retrospect.

A few thousand years later, fragments of a children's bow made of elm were also found in Denmark, which has the main feature of an extreme width tapering of the limbs in the last third of the limbs.
This bow is called the Mollegabet bow after the place where it was found.
Based on the Mollegabet bow, this thin end is formulated as a non-bending lever.

Holmegaard and Mollegabet bows come from Denmark are several thousand years old (the Holmegaard a few thousand older) and are both made of elm, but they are different bows. Perhaps the Mollegabet is a further development and improvement in design in terms of performance, just as it can be argued that the lever ends of the Mollegabet may be the forerunners of the Syahs in composite bows.
Quite a bit has been written about the Holmegaard bow, and quite a bit has been revised (keyword: backwards tillering), just as there are many construction sketches marked Holmegaard bow but showing a Mollegabet bow.
I have seen the Holemgaard bow and one-to-one copies of the find in museums in Denmark and Belgium and have also talked to some archaeologists researching the bow.
The first bow I built is also in this Neolithic style and made of elm. The bow is now more than 25 years old and is rarely shot... :BB
In the beginning I also called it a Holmegaard. I was proud to have built a bow based on the oldest archaeological find. Then at some point I called it the Mollegabet style and praised the Mollegabet as a further development of the Holmegaard with a design that could hardly be bettered even by computer calculations....
Today I just say Neolithic bows from Denmark.




P.S.The design principle that I see behind the Holmegaard is, on the one hand, efficient construction (a sapling can be felled and processed with stone tools faster than a large tree),
On the other hand, the durability of white wood: the tensile stability is approx. 4 times greater than the compressive stability, which is why a narrow or, in this case, rounded back in cooperation with a wide flat belly is sufficient.
One can discuss for a long time about the perfect tiller for such a bow. The version with stiff, non-bending lever ends is more efficient, but the uniform bend over the entire limb length is ultimately easier to manufacture and probably more durable. With which premise the bow makers in Holmegaard used to build their bows, none of us can say with certainty today.
Furthermore, we do not know if there were more and possibly other types of bows in Denmark at that time.


Last but not least: We should be happy about the beautiful bows here and not argue about names. (-S



« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 09:35:31 pm by AndrewS »

Offline BowEd

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2021, 07:16:25 am »
Thanks fellas.
In the past I've been in discussions of this subject and listened to everyones' opinion.Most opinions were those with 0 bow building experience of this type of bow or any bow for that matter, and still farther by those who don't even shoot bows.The described principles not the pictures of such a bow is what I build them by headlined as holmgaard bows.The smoothness of draw with low string angle/0 hand shock/great performance are the appealing features of such a bow.IMO through experience and time they can be just as durable as full length limb working bows.
Bottom line to the principle is short healthy working limbs with the least amount of outer mass weight.Large handled short working limbs and light outer limbs fall under this efficient principle also IMO.Both have the leverage to be efficient using hunting weight and target weight arrows.The D/R reflex design is up there too.All bows of any design tillered properly should be respected.
Fiberglass bow manufacturers "have" been in the past through promotion and money making reasons tried to exploit these bow making principles.Claiming it's a new bow making principle with no referral as to it's new found origin.
The oldest bows of this style I've made are going on a little over 10 years.Some used multiple hunting seasons and summer off season 3D shooting.Still in great condition.In tiller with no adjustments etc.
I rather doubt this type bow was a fore runner of the asian type bows as their history is very old also,but can see the logical anology connecting them with the lever principle.If so they did us a favor enhancing it's performance.
Conjecture is something that will always be controversial.Many different type bows are shown on here with titles to a certain culture.Are they all correct?Who knows.I look at the tiller and it's condition after use.
A name of neolithic origin is a logical surmise.I'm just a bow maker lucky enough to be in a position here to enjoy the process with still much to learn as the list of different types of bows is endless.Mastering them all could take 2 lifetimes depending on ones' ambition.
The appealing part of bow making other than the primitive origin of hunting and the respect of the beauty of wood and it's different bow making characteristics was for me and for those beginning to make bows is that a person can go down into the bottom or on the ridges and acquire bow and arrow making material with 0 investment other than time and make a bow and arrow of their choice. :BB


« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 07:45:01 am by BowEd »
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline AndrewS

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Re: 3 holmgaards
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2021, 11:34:50 am »
Hello Ed,

first of all, I'm right there with you - your last sentence also reflects a big part of my enthusiasm for bow making.

It's the case with many things that misnomers have become commonplace - but that doesn't make them right.
 I've also been excited about bows in this style since I saw the first bow of this type. I also got to know the bows with the long narrow non-bending lever ends as Holmegaard but after I had more information, visited museums, read books and built such a bow every now and then in between, I realized that the designation Holmegaard does not fit.
The technical considerations about the advantages of the mesolithic bows with the non-bending narrow ends have only been spread by the design theories in the traditional bowyer's bible.  There were probably some scientists like Kooi, Hickmann, Nagler Klopsteg who also did research and calculations in these areas but they did not call them Holmegaard...

What I have learned so far about the Stone Age is that people developed from a pragmatic point of view. And pragmatic in this case is: how can I produce a working result with what I have, with what is around me, with as little effort as possible...
and I would like to bet that the bows then were not as finely tillered as they are today, but that rather small flaws were accepted and compensated for in other ways (for example: shooting style, different arrows).
In the course of a bowmaker's career, our ancestors then steadily improved through the experience they gained with each new bow.