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Rust shooting ???

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mmattockx:

--- Quote from: Pat B on December 06, 2021, 10:40:03 am ---Alec Baldwin said on an interview that he didn't pull the trigger but he also said that he pulled the hammer back and get it go.

<snip>

I won't make personal comments about Baldwin but I will say I don't believe in accidental gun firings. Someone or something is always responsible.

--- End quote ---

Baldwin is rabidly anti-gun and I do question if he even has enough gun handling experience and skills to know if he pulled the trigger or not.

I would generally agree on no such thing as an accidental discharge, but I have experienced one with a mechanical failure in an AR. Aside from mechanical failures (which are exceedingly rare), everything else should be properly labelled as a negligent discharge.


Mark

Gimlis Ghost:

--- Quote ---I would generally agree on no such thing as an accidental discharge, but I have experienced one with a mechanical failure in an AR. Aside from mechanical failures (which are exceedingly rare), everything else should be properly labelled as a negligent discharge.


Mark


--- End quote ---

Unfortunately mechanical failures and simply poorly designed firing mechanisms are far from non existent.

I once rebuilt a very rusty and abused Savage .32 ACP, 1910 model IIRC. A pistol with very unusual construction.
This particular pistol was subject to front of frame spreading and in this case the resulting looseness of frame to slide fit introduced a very dangerous situation.
The safety was frame mounted but the entire firing mechanism including sear is housed in the slide.

Pocket pistols carried in a back pocket are subjected to unequal pressure on the forwards portion of the slide anytime the carrier sits down, especially when driving for hours.
If you loaded the pistol then engaged the safety and pulled the trigger it would not fire, but when you later disengaged the safety it fired without your touching the trigger.

The repair was simple. I just found a piece of aluminum a hair smaller than the width between the forwars frame rails and putting the frame in a table vice carefully squeezed it back into spec. Problem solved.

Some versions of the SKS rifle can double or even go full auto due to bits of primer plating or sealant being pushed back into the firing pin channel when fired.
They can also slamfire on loading if common commercial primers which are softer than milspec primers are used in the ammunition.
There is no firing pin retractor or even a firing pin return spring. The original design called for a return spring but they found it reduced reliability in sub zero weather.
I learned of this when loading my SKS with muzzle pointed at the ground. Even the primer of the milspec ammo I was using showed a fairly deep dent. It didn't discharge but if it had been a Remington made 7.62X39 it almost certainly would have. Loading with muzzle straight up did not produce a dented primer, though in at least one accidental shooting the muzzle was pointed upwards. the bullet passing through the ceiling and killing a man on the second floor.

JW_Halverson:
There is a very long line of responsibility for weapons on a set, but ultimately it all comes down to two parties that are pretty much equal in power, the director and the armorer. Of the two, the director has a nominal bit more power because the armorer is supposed to be able to tell the director NO if something unnecessarily dangerous is asked for, but the director can fire (usually, depends on contracts, studio policy, etc) the armorer.

The armorer is supposed to rule over the use and handling of all weapons and generally does so with a gleeful tyrannical overbearing manner. Movie making is all about power and throwing your weight around constantly and in my limited experience it is absolutely ugly. Apparently, this director had an uncanny ability to throw his weight around in such a manner that he could not get (or would not get) a qualified armorer to work on the project and the woman he hired was not up to the task of throwing HER weight around and enforcing normal rules regarding weapons, the first of which was adopted unanimously by the Union immediately after Brandon Lee was killed on set with a live bullet. And that is THERE WILL NEVER BE A LIVE BULLET OF ANY CALIBER OR SIZE ON A MOVIE SET. This person had never been an armorer on a movie set before, though from what I understand had worked in props and perhaps under an armorer on at least one occasion. She was unqualified. The director should have known that and insisted on a qualified party be hired.

"Well, it's only my lucky .22 shell from when I was a kid hunting squirrels in Tennessee and we are filming a Civil War scene with muskets", says some lowly production assistant. "Nope. Walkout! ATTENTION ALL IATSE MEMBERS....WE WALK!", says the Union armorer and the entire union membership performs a walk-out and filming stops until such time as proper safety measures are taken. And not just the Armorer and their assistants, but lighting, costumes, camera, electrical, building trades, properties, and even the persons that feed everyone on the set, the craft services.

You will note that early in the breaking of this story that it was reported union members walked. They walked because of repeated safety violations AND this director has a history of safety violations and putting people in danger (now THAT is a real power play, he is literally saying he is a god and can put your life in danger at his will). Unfortunately, this tiny production company was independent, not one of the major studios that work with the union.  There were not enough union members to stop production until such time as demands for safety measures were reinstated. Turns out they were right, huh?

Yes, I get that whole thing about the only person really responsible is the person with the gun in their hand. But the reality is that on movie sets they do not hire properly trained gun handlers as actors. It is the responsibility of the armorer to train that actor (and everyone that handles the gun) in basic gun safety and see to it that the actor (and everyone else in between the armorer and the actor) strictly adheres to those gun safety protocols. There are different rules on a movie set, the rules you were taught about safe gun handling  do  not  apply. The first rule you should have had had hammered into your head or else beaten into your butt is that you never point a gun at anyone unless you mean to kill them, right? Well, under your rule there will be some very major changes to movies. No more Dirty Harry asking a guy if he counted the shots, was it five or was it six, and did he feel lucky? How good would that scene have been if Harry was pointing the weapon AWAY FROM THE BAD GUY and not right at the spot between his eyes?

In my opinion the responsibility lies 80% on the director and 20% on the armorer. The young woman working as armorer should have known she was out of her depth and was not capable of standing toe to toe with the director, demanding safety measures be followed to the letter. But everything that happens on a movie set ultimately is the responsibility of the director. Guns with live ammunition were fired on the set in the preceding days. The director did not shut down filming and investigate the situation. He should have shut down things and called the armorer on the carpet, demanding to know who brought live ammo on set and who fired the gun(s) and who knew about it. The persons bringing live ammo should have been fired, the persons shooting the guns possibly fired as well if not demoted and seriously reprimanded, and those that knew about it and did not report this should have their butts chewed such that sitting would be an agony for a week or more. And lastly, the director should have fired the armorer and hired someone properly qualified.

I have been discussing this at length with a friend that is a qualified armorer in the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees. He started his career when he was hired to work on the Dances With Wolves production and just recently finished his 5th project with Kevin Costner, a prequel to the series Yellowstone. He educated me on the details of Union rules for armorers, and I was hired by him to be his assistant to help him with a German documentary (more like a b.s. fantasy) that wanted Native American archery shots.

I get it that a lot of people always want to hang it on the loose nut on the trigger. And it is true that the loose nut on the trigger is the weakest link, but look at it this way: you and your whole family are gathered in the living room with one person that you really do not know well.....would you allow one of your kids to hand the new acquaintance a weapon that you do not know whether or not is loaded? And what if someone in that room were to be shot unintentionally? How do you look the rest of the family in the eye after that? There's your answer to the question about responsibility.

Gimlis Ghost:
Brandon Lee was not killed by a live round. He was killed by a bullet dislodged from the neck of a poorly constructed dummy round that had been stuck in the chamber throat. The blast from a blank cartridge propelled the stuck bullet at lethal velocity.

A side note. London thugs found that a number of European blank pistols could be modified to fire bullets propelled by common theatrical blanks.
Even the Brocock air guns, which use a realistic cartridge combining a compressed air chamber , exhaust valve and pellet chamber could be fired with lethal force if the air cartridge were bored out to take a 8mm theatrical blank and the pellet replaced by a solid lead slug.

These finely made and ingeniously designed airguns were quickly banned.

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