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Help with avoiding set

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Badger:
 Elbs have their own challenges because your dimensions are pretty well-locked in. From what you are describing it sounds like you are doing better than most but I do understand how we can get hung up on a little bit of set and it does reduce cast significantly. I don't think I have ever had zero set but I can usually limit it to about 1". Ash is very inconsistent about density, I have seen some at about a 60 sg all the way up to about 80. One technique I use is as follows. I like to keep the center section pretty stiff but only if I can get away with it. If I am at 24" and start to pick up set I will go back to the center to gain my additional inches always carefully monitoring the set. Toward the end, it becomes a puzzle: Where can I remove more wood to get my last couple of inches?  The pattern I follow when making an elb is as follows. Based on the draw weight I will select a width and length. From there I just go ahead and carve out a longbow knowing it will be a bit stiff by floor tillering. Then I put it on a long string and check the weight and tiller. Contrary to popular belief a long string will give you a fairly accurate weight reading regardless of how long the string hangs down. If I am making a 100# bow I start right off with 100# pulls and then just start removing wood until I hit the draw length I am looking for.   

jameswoodmot:

--- Quote from: Badger on May 25, 2025, 12:44:19 am --- Elbs have their own challenges because your dimensions are pretty well-locked in. From what you are describing it sounds like you are doing better than most but I do understand how we can get hung up on a little bit of set and it does reduce cast significantly. I don't think I have ever had zero set but I can usually limit it to about 1". Ash is very inconsistent about density, I have seen some at about a 60 sg all the way up to about 80. One technique I use is as follows. I like to keep the center section pretty stiff but only if I can get away with it. If I am at 24" and start to pick up set I will go back to the center to gain my additional inches always carefully monitoring the set. Toward the end, it becomes a puzzle: Where can I remove more wood to get my last couple of inches?  The pattern I follow when making an elb is as follows. Based on the draw weight I will select a width and length. From there I just go ahead and carve out a longbow knowing it will be a bit stiff by floor tillering. Then I put it on a long string and check the weight and tiller. Contrary to popular belief a long string will give you a fairly accurate weight reading regardless of how long the string hangs down. If I am making a 100# bow I start right off with 100# pulls and then just start removing wood until I hit the draw length I am looking for.   

--- End quote ---

Thanks Badger, in my searching last night I found your detailed description of no-set tillering which was really insightful.

Both of them I started pulling to 80lb, keeping the long sting for quite a lot longer than I would normally, minimal set before I braced them. Quite an elliptical tiller to start but as I progressed I had to make it more and more compass as the mid limbs were getting over strained.
I find it quite difficult to judge how the tiller will change between long and short strings but that will come with time I guess.


As far as exercising goes, lets say you had a bow that was perfectly tillered but had never been bent before. If you were to string it and draw it you could get it to full draw length with a perfect curve but i imagine if you surprise a piece of wood with that much bend in one go its going to either break or take massive set.
How much would you want to exercise a piece of wood to get it to full draw as a bare minimum, excluding the bending and exercising needed to check the tiller.
The tillering process on the Ash elb was really quick for me which I was pleased with, it was a very uniform piece of wood and I started at a good point but I have a suspicion that it lead to less exercise and more set.

Del the cat:
Some very good discussion here.
At the limit, you can only get a certain amount out any bit of wood. Anyone will struggle to get a good heavy weight ELB from Ash or Elm without leaving the belly fairly wide and flattish (maybe slightly trapped back) and heat treating.
(people often round the belly of ELBs far too much
The most common mistake is making the bow too short for the required draw weight/draw length.
I always say make the bow 2" longer than you think you need, you can always shorten it.
Maybe start at 80", you should be able to make it with very little set. That will give you the confidence to trim it shorter and re-tiller by degrees.
Don't get hung up by a little set. If a bow has taken no set, it isn't working hard enough! Most bows that claim to have no set, probably started with an inch of reflex!
Del
Here's the playlist for videos of my ELM Warbow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYVl88Hnu8&list=PLBz2tD9476KQ2STSgrH89kndJ40B6RKC8

jameswoodmot:

--- Quote from: Del the cat on May 25, 2025, 11:24:12 am ---Some very good discussion here.
At the limit, you can only get a certain amount out any bit of wood. Anyone will struggle to get a good heavy weight ELB from Ash or Elm without leaving the belly fairly wide and flattish (maybe slightly trapped back) and heat treating.
(people often round the belly of ELBs far too much
The most common mistake is making the bow too short for the required draw weight/draw length.
I always say make the bow 2" longer than you think you need, you can always shorten it.
Maybe start at 80", you should be able to make it with very little set. That will give you the confidence to trim it shorter and re-tiller by degrees.
Don't get hung up by a little set. If a bow has taken no set, it isn't working hard enough! Most bows that claim to have no set, probably started with an inch of reflex!
Del
Here's the playlist for videos of my ELM Warbow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYVl88Hnu8&list=PLBz2tD9476KQ2STSgrH89kndJ40B6RKC8

--- End quote ---

Cheers for the input, Del.

I shot the bow a few times before getting rid and it was slow and had a lot of hand shock, I put this down to the limbs already being too long, arrow was about 600 grain and I wouldn’t want to put anything heavier through it as it was already slow. The tips were probably about 13mm square and a pretty straight taper from the middle, they were taking set so I didn’t want to thin them to lighten them anymore. I had been hoping to get it to weight at 77” then start shorten it  to make it shoot sweeter. I feel like an 80lb 80” bow is going to be a bit long and probably not have much cast over a 72” 70lb bow, I’m I wrong in my assumption?
I’ve never shot a nice ELB before, yet I know they exist. They have all been slow and hand shocky like the one I made and yet I know that that’s just a bad bow.
I’ve got a lemonwood/purpleheart/ ash laminate gluing up (thanks for the advice on cascamite earlier in the year). Laminate ELBs leave me a bit cold but hopefully I’ll get a shooter out of it and get my confidence back.

How wide would you have the stave for an ash bow at the handle? I didn’t trap mine but also didn’t round the belly until near the tips, I gave the edges a good rounding along its length but left at least 2/3 of the width of the belly flat. Am I better off leaving it completely flat and just taking the sharp edges off?

Del the cat:
Ah! Your doing that thing of changing from one question to another!
1st question was how do you avoid set, but when I say make it long, you are worried about it being slow!
I think you have to solve one problem at a time.
There are plenty of inter related factors, and it's a matter of balancing and optimising them.
The fastest bow will probably have a bit of set and may have a short life. The bow with no set may well be overbuilt and sluggish.
The 100# Elm warbow I built shot over 300 yards, but that was with a light flight arrow which rather jarred my elbow ( I have some tennis elbow)... So I named the bow "Dennis Elmbow"  ;D
40mm is probably a sensible maximum width, but with a rather rectangular section, the corners (even when rounded ) will be uncomfortable in the hand, and that's (IMO) what is often mistaken for hand shock.
So, sorry, but no simple easy answers I'd suggest Lemonwood backed with Ash (edge grained like this ||||||||||||||| ) might be a better combination.
Your assumption about length is right, but of course it also depends on draw length.
I have experimented with short ELBs for flight purposed... one got name "Ill Bastardo" as it kicked like a mule, was short draw and left some hideous bruises on my mate JT's bicep... it was fast but short lived... it did have some set.
If you cant find Yew stave , maybe you can find Yew heartwood to back with Ash or Boo, which will make a good fast bow.
Good luck
Del

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