Author Topic: Making fast bows  (Read 3266 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sleek

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,011
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2025, 02:29:32 am »
Hey Sleek, what’s a good heat compared to a stop short compete heat treat?

Heat until heat wont increase the draw weight any further. I will do a heat treat, retiller to drop the weight back to target, then heat it again, retiller, and repeat that 4 times. On the 4th heat treat, the draw weight will no longer go up, the wood is completely treated. Anything less than that is an incomplete heat treat.

That doesnt mean an incomplete heat treat is bad, it just means its not all you can get out of it. Regular hunting and target bows I dont do that, I may not heat it at all except for minor tiller corrections. But for my high performance flight bows, that makes the difference in a big way.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Selfbowman

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,297
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2025, 09:21:59 pm »
The most efficient bow I’ve ever built was a 64” reflex deflex design. It was a computer design by Allen case . The design called for 100% efficiency but I only got 95% according to sleeks math. The lack of efficiency loss was on my part of the build. One day I’m going to hit the design and I will brake some records. I still have not totally tested the 64” bow. But it did shoot a broadhead arrow 232 yds. 7 yds off my record. It might have what it takes it just needs further testing. That being said a Pyrimid with reflex the last 8-9” of the limb is hard to bear!!!!
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline sleek

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,011
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2025, 09:34:52 pm »
You have all of my attention with your bows you are building Arvin! I need to swing by again for a week to do some hard core bow building with you. I believe we can certainly get some record distance behind an arrow if we can do a good collaboration! I really enjoyed hanging out last time, it just wasnt long enough.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,167
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2025, 09:55:32 pm »
   Are you talking efficiency or are you talking stored energy per draw force. 95% is good 100% is achievable. You really can't talk efficiency without a chrono and a shooting machine. No bow ever built has even approached 100% efficiency.

Offline lonbow

  • Member
  • Posts: 141
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2025, 07:30:45 pm »
Over 90 percent of the bows I build are ELBs. I like that this design appears very simple at first glance, but the devil's in the detail. I would argue that it is relatively easy for an inexperienced beginner to implement the basic design of the longbow, but it requires more experience compared to a flatbow to build an ELB with high to maximum efficiency. The reasons are as follows: due to its design, the flatbow is stiff at the grip, which automatically reduces limb vibration. In addition, the average flatbow is shorter than a longbow, which means that it is not quite as important to distribute the limb mass correctly (i.e., close to the grip).

However, this does not mean that a longbow cannot be built to be just as efficient as an excellent flatbow. Here are a few observations I have made: The grip area should bend as little as possible, but as much as necessary. A grip that bends too much (one of the most common mistakes) reduces efficiency, as both the limb vibration and the moving limb mass are unnecessarily increased. On the other hand, a grip that is too stiff puts too much strain on the middle and outer limbs.
 
A shorter longbow must bend relatively more at the handle at a given draw weight in order not to overstrain the mid and outer limbs. The more draw weight a longbow has at a given length and limb width, the more the grip must bend. A longbow made of very pressure resistant woods such as yew, osage, and laburnum can be tillered more elliptically at a given length and draw weight than a longbow made of white woods. With white woods, I make sure that the set is distributed over the entire length, while with woods like osage, yew and laburnum,  it's okay if the set is only present in the mid and outer limbs, which makes the bow more efficient. The maximum acceptable amount of set is about 1 1/4 inches.
 
Another common mistake I often see on longbows is that the limb tips are too stiff. This unnecessarily increases the moving limb mass and, in my opinion, puts too much strain on the mid limbs. Unlike flatbows, the limbs of longbows are allowed to bend all the way to the tips. Arrow speeds of over 170 fps at 10 gpp are entirely achievable when these tiller rules are taken into account.


I have also been building laminated English longbows for about a year or so. I noticed that the choice of glue used plays a significant role and has a major impact on arrow speed. In my experience, a bow glued with Titebond III retains less reflex and shoots about 10 fps slower than a bow glued with epoxy resin or good fish glue. I suspect that Titebond III yields more under shear forces (i.e., is more chewing gum-like) than epoxy resin or fish glue. A well-built English longbow made of two or three lams glued with the latter two glues can achieve arrow speeds of over 180 fps.


@sleek: I would like to ask you a little more about your approach to heat treating flight bows. At what draw lengths do you perform the heat treatments during tillering? Are there woods that you heat treat stronger than other woods? How dark is the wood your heat treatments?

Thank You and cheers,
lonbow

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,370
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2025, 08:05:50 pm »
: The grip area should bend as little as possible, but as much as necessary.

good observations,
are the mary rose bows a good example? I would think they were tillered for maximum cast which would also be "fastest"
could you post pics of different examples at full draw?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2025, 09:24:16 am by willie »

Offline sleek

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,011
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2025, 01:33:49 pm »
Over 90 percent of the bows I build are ELBs. I like that this design appears very simple at first glance, but the devil's in the detail. I would argue that it is relatively easy for an inexperienced beginner to implement the basic design of the longbow, but it requires more experience compared to a flatbow to build an ELB with high to maximum efficiency. The reasons are as follows: due to its design, the flatbow is stiff at the grip, which automatically reduces limb vibration. In addition, the average flatbow is shorter than a longbow, which means that it is not quite as important to distribute the limb mass correctly (i.e., close to the grip).

However, this does not mean that a longbow cannot be built to be just as efficient as an excellent flatbow. Here are a few observations I have made: The grip area should bend as little as possible, but as much as necessary. A grip that bends too much (one of the most common mistakes) reduces efficiency, as both the limb vibration and the moving limb mass are unnecessarily increased. On the other hand, a grip that is too stiff puts too much strain on the middle and outer limbs.
 
A shorter longbow must bend relatively more at the handle at a given draw weight in order not to overstrain the mid and outer limbs. The more draw weight a longbow has at a given length and limb width, the more the grip must bend. A longbow made of very pressure resistant woods such as yew, osage, and laburnum can be tillered more elliptically at a given length and draw weight than a longbow made of white woods. With white woods, I make sure that the set is distributed over the entire length, while with woods like osage, yew and laburnum,  it's okay if the set is only present in the mid and outer limbs, which makes the bow more efficient. The maximum acceptable amount of set is about 1 1/4 inches.
 
Another common mistake I often see on longbows is that the limb tips are too stiff. This unnecessarily increases the moving limb mass and, in my opinion, puts too much strain on the mid limbs. Unlike flatbows, the limbs of longbows are allowed to bend all the way to the tips. Arrow speeds of over 170 fps at 10 gpp are entirely achievable when these tiller rules are taken into account.


I have also been building laminated English longbows for about a year or so. I noticed that the choice of glue used plays a significant role and has a major impact on arrow speed. In my experience, a bow glued with Titebond III retains less reflex and shoots about 10 fps slower than a bow glued with epoxy resin or good fish glue. I suspect that Titebond III yields more under shear forces (i.e., is more chewing gum-like) than epoxy resin or fish glue. A well-built English longbow made of two or three lams glued with the latter two glues can achieve arrow speeds of over 180 fps.


@sleek: I would like to ask you a little more about your approach to heat treating flight bows. At what draw lengths do you perform the heat treatments during tillering? Are there woods that you heat treat stronger than other woods? How dark is the wood your heat treatments?

Thank You and cheers,
lonbow

I first focus on getting my tiller correct, and I take reading on the scale as I near my final draw weight, not draw length. I draw 26, and like to have my tiller perfect before I hit 15 inches. I like to have my projected draw weight to hit 26 by time im at 20 inches. Then I heat treat it and start the process over again. If Im gonna do a 50 pound bow, I dont hit 50 until the first and last time I hit my final draw length. This process keeps wood strain down. Many folks dont realize, just bracing your bow when its too heavy causes set and damage. There's no reason to brace and pull to 50 if you are gonna hit 50@15 and you pull 28. Ypu should hit your final draw weight and draw length at the same time.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Selfbowman

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,297
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2025, 02:54:32 pm »
I have found 9grains per inch of draw gives me better distance on 50 pound bows in broadhead head flight. Not because that the rules are 450grain.  My best shots have been with 462 grains. It might be that that’s the sweet spot of arrow weight vs bow weight on a fifty pound bow or better  distance with that particular bow design. I don’t have a shooting machine but after 150 Pyramid design bows with 1-1/2 reflex in the last 8-10” of the limb. This design has broke many flight records in fifty pound class and unlimited class. The English have gotten the English longbow rules oked to shoot synthetic strings vs all natural materials. I would like to see all primitive classes ok the synthetic strings in flight shooting. Jim Davis convinced years ago that the pyramid bows are the most efficient design. I built one English longbow from Osage years ago. I built it to the flight shooting rule design. It was full of shock and a dog. It was probably the builders fault!!!🤠🤠🤠
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline JW_Halverson

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 12,111
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2025, 12:17:01 pm »
Ok, that multiple heat treatment idea is stuck in my head like a piece of kale in my teeth in a critical job interview.

I have a theory working in my head that the belly needs to not just reach a critical temperature but also STAY AT THAT TEMP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. Doing that all in one heat session would likely cause the heat to migrate too deeply and damage the tension strength of the back. But by doing it over several sessions one can get up to the critical temp again and again until it adds up to the point where the changes are complete. Or expressed as a formula, a matter of Time X Temperature.

Or am I overthinking this?
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline sleek

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,011
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2025, 12:29:15 pm »
Ok, that multiple heat treatment idea is stuck in my head like a piece of kale in my teeth in a critical job interview.

I have a theory working in my head that the belly needs to not just reach a critical temperature but also STAY AT THAT TEMP FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. Doing that all in one heat session would likely cause the heat to migrate too deeply and damage the tension strength of the back. But by doing it over several sessions one can get up to the critical temp again and again until it adds up to the point where the changes are complete. Or expressed as a formula, a matter of Time X Temperature.

Or am I overthinking this?

No, I think you are about right. Its not just getting it hot, it does require a specific time for a heat soak. Like treating metal with heat. I dont know all the science, but I know this works. My bows consistently beat the computer models Alan Case pits together for whats supposed to be possible. And Alan, for those who dont know, is probably one of the smartest guys out there who builds bows. He just broke Harry Drakes record for longest arrow shot, well over a mile. Alan and I are on and off discussing heat treat recently and are considering different tests to learn more.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Del the cat

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,391
    • Derek Hutchison Native Wood Self Bows
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2025, 06:43:47 pm »
Heat treating time...
Presumably there must be some sort of rule of thumb for time/depth of penetration?
For steaming it's say 1 hour per inch of thickness... How much depth of penetration do we want for a heat treatment? 1/4" ?
When I heat treat with a hot air gun, I move the gun along every 4 minutes, but I use side cheeks to keep the heat along a fair section of the belly, so it probably is held up to temperature for at least 8 if not 12 minutes, I'd guess it goes to 1/8"- 3/16"
Dunno if that is any use as a comment ::) ;D
Del
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,167
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2025, 07:09:19 pm »
   Del, as far as a rule of thumb goes, I heat the entire limb by keeping the heat gun moving from one end to another. I hold it close to the wood. I continue this until the opposite side is too hot to hold your finger on for more than about a second. This usually gives my just a slight golden brown color. One each end where I make the turn around it tends to get hotter, so toward the end of the process, the strokes get a bit shorter as I move it inward. I never really timed it but I would guess about 30 min or less per limb.

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,046
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2025, 08:20:08 pm »
I’m putting more of my focus into fast bows with a goal of attending the flight shoot next year. I think recurves add more reflex easily than maintaining reflex along a whole limb. I also think they can be made light enough that they’re efficient. Definitely a solid heat treat and low set helps. Wood quality makes a big difference. I struggle with humidity at home.

Offline sleek

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,011
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2025, 08:42:36 pm »
I’m putting more of my focus into fast bows with a goal of attending the flight shoot next year. I think recurves add more reflex easily than maintaining reflex along a whole limb. I also think they can be made light enough that they’re efficient. Definitely a solid heat treat and low set helps. Wood quality makes a big difference. I struggle with humidity at home.

It would absolutely be great to see you out there! Ill help you as much as I can.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,046
Re: Making fast bows
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2025, 10:37:37 pm »
I appreciate that. I need to watch your video on flight arrows. Arvin and Alan have been great when I ask questions. I’d rather build 100 flight bows and 1 arrow so those have been tricky.