Author Topic: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?  (Read 748 times)

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Offline willie

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Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2025, 10:50:00 pm »
heat shape the lams to the forms before gluup? I know the bamboo will be easy,

Offline Aussie Yeoman

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Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2025, 03:29:32 am »
Here's one bow I'm working on in VirtualBow. It's a takedown with the riser omitted.

Brace: 150 mm
Draw: 711 mm

Handle-
length: 175 mm
setback: 0
Angle: -7.5

Profile: Spiral
Length: 750
R start: 3000
R end: 2500

Width-
0//40
12.5//39.9
50//39.9
75//31.4
100//10

Thickness-
0//12.05
100//5.75

The material is Ironbark. With a stiffness of 24.212 GPa, and a max working stress of 167 MPa.
 
Articles for the beginning bowyer, with Australian bowyers in mind:

http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/articles/tutorials

Offline Aussie Yeoman

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Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2025, 03:37:37 am »
And here's another I'm still tooling around with. This time a 1-piece.

Brace: 150 mm
Draw: 711 mm

Handle-
length: 0
setback: 0
Angle: -7

Profile: Spiral
Length: 838
R start: 4000
R end: 2250

Width-
0//30
2//30
4//30.7
6//31.8
8//34.4
10//37.6
12.5//39.8
50//36
75//28
100//10

Thickness-
0//25
2.5//25
5//24
7.5//17.2
10//12.5565
12.5//11.7125
15//11.556
100//6.68576

Same material as above
Articles for the beginning bowyer, with Australian bowyers in mind:

http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/articles/tutorials

Offline Aussie Yeoman

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Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2025, 06:50:43 pm »
So, I've collated some commentary and for future reference the key things to keep in mind when making a D/R bow are:
  • The laminations must be pretty accurate to begin with (difficult if using natural bamboo, but we must try what we can, eh?)
  • Avoid having uneven reflex. Smooth curves at the start = smooth curves at the end. This would be a manifestation of the above point being gotten right, in addition to having a good form/caul.
  • At brace, the limbs should be actually or close to pretty straight
  • Avoid putting in too much reflex. Having the tips around even with, or just in front of, the back of the handle helps to avoid nasty problems during tillering
  • Go slowly through tillering - this done to avoid putting too much bend somewhere in particular, which can happen very quickly with a bow like this. Consider using a scraper of some sort. The accuracy of the lams to begin with helps reduce the amount of bulk stock removal, making the scraper effective.
  • Know exactly what it's meant to look like at full draw before you start. This done by sketching, modelling or emulating another bow. This helps prevent hinges or overshooting the limb's curvature.

Are those the main points or have I missed something vital?
Articles for the beginning bowyer, with Australian bowyers in mind:

http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/articles/tutorials

Offline willie

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Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2025, 08:40:08 pm »
    • Know exactly what it's meant to look like at full draw before you start. This done by sketching, modelling or emulating another bow. This helps prevent hinges or overshooting the limb's curvature.

    Are those the main points or have I missed something vital?

    with virtual bow you should be able to see what the bow should look like at any stage of the draw, eliminating the need to compare it to a different bow

    Offline Bob Barnes

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #20 on: December 16, 2025, 09:19:44 pm »
    How hard is it to download the Virtual Bow program and what do you use to open/use it?
    Seems like common sense isn't very common any more...

    Offline Aussie Yeoman

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #21 on: December 16, 2025, 10:09:11 pm »
    https://www.virtualbow.org/

    It's an independent program that you download and install. It's really easy to install and quite easy to use, with a fairly shallow and short learning curve.
    Articles for the beginning bowyer, with Australian bowyers in mind:

    http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/articles/tutorials

    Offline Bob Barnes

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #22 on: December 16, 2025, 10:20:09 pm »
    https://www.virtualbow.org/

    It's an independent program that you download and install. It's really easy to install and quite easy to use, with a fairly shallow and short learning curve.

    I have win 11 and get a warning about it "not being commonly downloaded.  Be sure that you trust the link"   It did download something but the file is called "unconfirmed download" and it won't open...
    Seems like common sense isn't very common any more...

    Offline Badger

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #23 on: December 16, 2025, 10:20:38 pm »
     Several questions about the programs. Do they allow for some set at given stresses? Does increased set affect efficiency or FDC? If so, by how much? Are there any allowances made for working part of the limb length? Efficiency is lost in working limb length and increases as the working limb shortens, even though strain figures might go up.

    Offline willie

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #24 on: December 16, 2025, 10:49:14 pm »
    https://www.virtualbow.org/

    It's an independent program that you download and install. It's really easy to install and quite easy to use, with a fairly shallow and short learning curve.

    I have win 11 and get a warning about it "not being commonly downloaded.  Be sure that you trust the link"   It did download something but the file is called "unconfirmed download" and it won't open...

    does  your file name end with  .crdownload?    if so try again

    Offline willie

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #25 on: December 16, 2025, 10:56:36 pm »
    Several questions about the programs. Do they allow for some set at given stresses? Does increased set affect efficiency or FDC? If so, by how much? Are there any allowances made for working part of the limb length? Efficiency is lost in working limb length and increases as the working limb shortens, even though strain figures might go up.

    set is not taken into account with the program.   It is up to you to choose a MOE value for the materiel used,  and review your design to see that stresses remains below the level you feel set will occur at.

    Offline Bob Barnes

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #26 on: December 16, 2025, 11:25:57 pm »
    https://www.virtualbow.org/

    It's an independent program that you download and install. It's really easy to install and quite easy to use, with a fairly shallow and short learning curve.

    I have win 11 and get a warning about it "not being commonly downloaded.  Be sure that you trust the link"   It did download something but the file is called "unconfirmed download" and it won't open...

    does  your file name end with  .crdownload?    if so try again

    Yes... I have hit 'download 5 or 6 times and the file is the same every time.  "Unconfirmed(random number).crdownload"
    Thank you for helping...
    Seems like common sense isn't very common any more...

    Offline Aussie Yeoman

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #27 on: December 16, 2025, 11:48:05 pm »
    Nah, unfortunately it doesn't account for set. Alan Case's spreadhseet allows a bow to be 'pre-stressed' to account for set.

    If One happens to have bend test data, then One can predict how much set the bow will take at a given stress level. That's what I've done with my D/R bows above, and anticipate they'll take between 3/4 and 1" set once shot in.

    Several questions about the programs. Do they allow for some set at given stresses? Does increased set affect efficiency or FDC? If so, by how much? Are there any allowances made for working part of the limb length? Efficiency is lost in working limb length and increases as the working limb shortens, even though strain figures might go up.
    Articles for the beginning bowyer, with Australian bowyers in mind:

    http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/articles/tutorials

    Offline willie

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    • Posts: 3,409
    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #28 on: December 16, 2025, 11:53:11 pm »
    https://www.virtualbow.org/

    It's an independent program that you download and install. It's really easy to install and quite easy to use, with a fairly shallow and short learning curve.

    I have win 11 and get a warning about it "not being commonly downloaded.  Be sure that you trust the link"   It did download something but the file is called "unconfirmed download" and it won't open...

    does  your file name end with  .crdownload?    if so try again

    Yes... I have hit 'download 5 or 6 times and the file is the same every time.  "Unconfirmed(random number).crdownload"
    Thank you for helping...

    windows 11 may be too helpful for its own good
    try checking these settings
    https://www.supportyourtech.com/tech/how-to-allow-downloads-on-windows-11-a-step-by-step-guide/

    Online Tuomo

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    Re: Common mistakes in deflex/reflex bows?
    « Reply #29 on: Today at 02:50:31 am »
    Several questions about the programs. Do they allow for some set at given stresses? Does increased set affect efficiency or FDC? If so, by how much? Are there any allowances made for working part of the limb length? Efficiency is lost in working limb length and increases as the working limb shortens, even though strain figures might go up.

    No, it is not possible to define set as we understand it. However, there is a “damping” parameter, but it only describes some general energy losses in a bow. Set relates to material properties, and it will be included in the future, so you cannot currently take set into account. Of course, you can interpret strain values: if the compression strain is high, the bow will take set.

    Regarding the working part of the limb – yes, of course. You simply define how the bow tapers (just like in my Straight Bow example) and simulate it. I am not sure that efficiency is lost with a longer working limb length; I do not believe it is the determining parameter. Efficiency relates mainly to moving limb mass and hysteresis, and working limb length affects these factors.

    Nah, unfortunately it doesn't account for set. Alan Case's spreadhseet allows a bow to be 'pre-stressed' to account for set.

    If One happens to have bend test data, then One can predict how much set the bow will take at a given stress level. That's what I've done with my D/R bows above, and anticipate they'll take between 3/4 and 1" set once shot in.

    Alan Case’s SuperTiller program (in Excel) does not take set into account. The “pre-stress” feature is purely for pre-stressing, similar to Perry-reflexing a bow. For example, in VirtualBow a reflexed bow has zero stress when unbraced, whereas in SuperTiller you can introduce pre-stress so that the bow has a certain amount of stress even when not braced. As a result, at full draw this kind of bow is more highly stressed than a bow with no pre-stress. It is a nice feature, and hopefully we will have it in VirtualBow in the future as well.

    Compression strain values are very useful when predicting set. Wood will take a permanent set when the strain value exceeds about 0.4–0.6% in compression, depending on the wood species. In tension, wood can tolerate on average about 0.9–1.0% strain, but the limit is much lower in compression. Of course, there is an important difference: if the maximum strain is exceeded in tension, the bow breaks, whereas if the bow takes set, it is not yet broken. I am not sure how much compression strain is required to cause chrysals, and I am sure it varies greatly depending on the wood species. However, if you want to estimate set in VirtualBow, I would use 0.4–0.6% compression strain as a guiding range – beyond that, the bow will take set.
    « Last Edit: Today at 03:03:37 am by Tuomo »