Author Topic: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows  (Read 220403 times)

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Offline Pat B

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2006, 11:50:09 am »
Josh, This is a very interesting post. With my yew stave sitting in my basement just waiting for me to get back in the swing, I'm soaking it all in. Thanks for the time and effort you are putting in to this project and for taking the time to share your findings.
   

   I don't know history well enough to debate this subject but I'm enjoying the debate none the less. We do need to keep it civil and realise that oppinions are like belly buttons(and other things), we all have one. Argueing and name calling get us nowhere. Debate, on the other hand is not only informative but healthy.   Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Roger

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2006, 01:23:26 pm »
I too am following along with great intrest and anticipation. I have a Yew stave at heavy floor tiller that I have sinewed. I have only made one other ELB Yew bow with a sister stave that was...well let's just say flabby at best.

Roger
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 12:27:56 am by Roger »

traper

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2006, 09:20:57 am »
Why belly is such knooty wood?

traper

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2006, 09:23:20 am »
Why the belly is so knooty?

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2006, 11:05:11 am »
Very interesting thread. I enjoyed reading the posts even though  this is not one og my arrchery interests. Jawge
Set Happens!
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Offline Primitive1

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2006, 03:26:10 pm »
I just read through this post, very interesting.  Here's a thought, there's seems to be an assumption that the draw length is 30-31" based on bow performance at longer lengths?  Could the 100# argument be validated in relationship to draw length being shorter, therefore the smaller nock size in evidence which would then support the estimated string strength/durability?  My draw length is 26" but I shoot a 31" arrow.  Different lengths affect spine of the arrow.  Has anyone looked at string tracking on the existing bows or is that impossible?  I'm thinking again that if the bowyer was wise, he would offset the string for near or center shot alignment so that spine on the arrows would be rendered irrelevant...hey, I do.  I thought that there were indications from empirical evidence which supported that centuries ago, we all were of smaller stature physically...this would moreover suggest that the draw lengths were shorter indicating less poundage given a particular bow's dimension(s).  This conjecture seems more reasonable than 150# bows being pulled by strings that wouldn't successfully take it or last; sounds like a beheading in the making to me... :P  If I was the bowyer I'd be overbuilding the bows like nobody's business so I could literally keep my head once the troops came home!  Cheers, P1.
When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Cedar Hill, MO

duffontap

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Soaking Wet In Oregon
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2006, 05:45:21 pm »
Hello There,

I’m currently flooded here on the beautiful North Oregon Coast.  This separates me from my camera at work, and work.  On the down side, I’ll have to postpone the laying out of the bow until tomorrow.  On the plus side, I got to spend the day in my shop seeing my replica speed toward completion with a beautiful set of jet-black horn nocks.  I can see that little peasant’s cottage up in flames now—which reminds me that I need to find the time to build a cottage with a thatched roof if I’m ever going to keep that promise.  Let’s lay out the bow tomorrow, shall we?  Until then, here’s an equally-important discussion of long draws, and fat Force-Draw Curves.  (Post to Follow)

The pic was taken with my camera phone on hwy. 101 near Seaside, Oregon.


[attachment deleted by admin]

Fred_Hagell

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2006, 05:54:15 pm »
That is unfortunate.  I hope the flood doesn't cause you too much grief. 
This has become quite the intriguing thread.
I'm looking forward to seeing the finished bow, and the flaming roof.
I grabbed a drier (and snakier) piece of  Osage and started working it.  It seems to be the hardest piece of orange wood I've taken a drawknife to.
I guess nothing worth doing is easy.

Keep it up
Fred

duffontap

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Step 3.5: Fattening up the Force Draw Curve
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2006, 06:37:25 pm »
Hello everyone,

There’s a scene in the movie Arthur in which two opposing armies face each other on the frozen surface of a lake.  One commander calls an archer forward to test the range, to determine if they were in fact able to engage the enemy with the bow and arrow.  He draws and sends his Hollywood prop through the air with a whiz.  His arrow lands twenty yards in front of Arthur’s men, and skitters harmlessly across the ice.  Out of range.  Needing nothing more for encouragement, Arthur’s men (and Ms. Keira Knightly) begin launching volley after volley of arrows right into the mass of the enemy.  An enemy made impotent by inferior archery tackle?—there’s no Hollywood sensationalization needed—it has happened. 

What made the English longbowmen so successful?  They were not the only ones out on the battlefield with longbows.  The Yew war bow with its classic D-section (D-ish, we’ll talk about cross-sections another day) and D-tiller was and is very practical but hardly revolutionary.  Unless you use an ordinary bow in a special way, ordinary results will be achieved.  The answer has to come from how the bow was used.  Namely—what kind of arrows were used and what kind of draw was used?

We are fortunate to have recovered so many arrows from the Mary Rose (Approximately 3,500).  These arrows give us a bit of a window to see how the bow might have been used.  Many of the arrows that were found on the Mary Rose were in collections of 24, in the remains of the standard arrow bags.  In these bags (which were mostly deteriorated) were leather disks containing a variety of arrows that ranged in length from about 27” to about 31 1/2”.  The heads and fletchings were of course long gone.

What this tells us, is that each arrow bag contained arrows that would permit a draw of up to between 30-31 1/2”.  History tells us that the English draw was not always anchored at the same length like we do today, but drawn right past the ear—until the point touched the hand.  This style allows for a very long draw from a relatively short archer.  And this length of draw allows for very high energy storage. 

Many of you, perhaps most of you, are familiar with Tim Baker’s ‘Bow Design and Performance’ chapter in Vol. 1 of the Traditional Bowyer’s Bible.  If not, it is required reading.  I’m a bit of a rebel, and I delight in disagreeing with Mr. Baker, but I reference this chapter often, and I willingly admit my debt to him for advancing my understanding of energy storage—and how to demonstrate it on a force-draw curve.  Well, if you’re familiar with this chapter, or its equivalent, you shouldn’t have much trouble understanding why the English made their bows long in the first place.  High weights, and stacked bellies (thick rather than wide in section) are safest when made very long.  But 80” is much longer than needed for 100-180# bows drawing 26-28”.  There are benefits to overbuilding a bow—Comstock style—but there are reasonable limits.  Take that same 80” bow and draw it 31+” and you’ve:
1. Stored way more energy.
2. Made a very long bow very efficient.

Modern tests confirm the effectiveness of this long draw—many archers drawing their war bow replicas to 32”.  Force draw curves also confirm this.  If you look at a graph of a force-draw curve, adding four inches to your draw practically doubles your energy storage.  If you take two opposing armies and outfit them with the same bows, with one drawing 27-28” and the other drawing 30-32”, the archers who draw further will shoot much further, can use heavier arrows, and can engage an enemy that cannot return lethal shots. 
 
Ironically, it may have been the English Long Arrow that that made the English Longbow so famous.

              J. D. Duff

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2006, 11:37:35 pm »
JD  If each quiver had different lengths of arrow. I guess the question that then begs to be asked is, Were there different lengths of arrows for different distances?  If you had 50 like bows and 50 archers, 49 novices and one professional, the professional could tell what length to use, say 31", they all draw until it touches their finger then loose and they all shoot the same distance. Then as the army approaches they switch to 30 and shoot.  It would eliminate a lot of practice or guess work. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2006, 12:57:08 am »
Very interesting point Justin.  I was wondering that myself as I was thinking my way through that post.  Here's what got me thinking:

My wife regularly embarrasses me in our backyard archery range by outshooting me.  She does this despite the fact that she has no idea what proper form is and she is shooting crooked arrows.  (I would straighten her arrows but how badly do I want to be beaten?).  She judges her distance and then adjusts her trajectory by aiming higher and lower and by how far she draws her arrow.  On long shots she draws farther--on short shots, she draws less.  Don't ask me how she can hit anything--I don't know.  But, she does know how to get extra power out of her bow and she has never read 'bow design and performance.'

As far as arrow length being used to control distances shot--you may be right.  I think it is at least likely that arrows were different lengths to allow a certain randomness in where the volleys of arrows landed.  If you are shooting at a group of 20,000 men, you don't want all your arrows to go 240 yards and land there.  You want some to go 180, some to go 220, some to go 235, etc. so the whole group gets peppered.  Make sense?

I had another point, but I forgot it.  Keep the mental juices flowing.  I got my camera tonight so I'll finish this post up over the next week or so.  The bow is nearing completion and hasn't blow yet. 

           J. D. Duff

Dustybaer

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2006, 09:35:19 am »
JD, could it be as trivial as using up shafting material?  arrows were built (and needed) in the hundreds of thousands in those days.  just like the dwindling availability of yew may have been one of the causes for a narrower bow design, using up available shafting material may have resulted in various arrow lengths.  i guess it was not worth sorting them by length, since they were shot in volleys and no arrow was going to be shot again, so they were consumables.

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2006, 01:23:14 pm »
Dustybaer,  I have heard that they narrowed the bows to save wood also. As for the arrows being sorted, I think it was intentional. A short draw versus a long draw could make a difference of several hundred yards.  A good group of archers could change the outcome of a battle before swords were even drawn, but they had to volley into the lines. If you are short on arrow material you don't throw sticks that have no hope of getting to the target or ones that will go far beyond. You might even give the short arrows to guys with shorter draws and the long to guys with longer draws. The fact that all quivers had both lends to the idea that it was very intentional. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Primitive1

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2006, 01:27:53 pm »
I could be way, way off here, but could the shorter arrows have been used for hunting and the longer ones for war where they needed the weight/distance/penetration?  I guess that all points to the same conclusion though...hmmm....
When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Cedar Hill, MO

Offline Calendargirl

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2006, 02:36:26 pm »
When reading more on this you might find the article The Enigma of Side-Horns by Roy King(the official Bowmaker of the Mary Rose Trust)  in P.A. back issue volume 8 issue 1 interesting. 
You shouldn't grow a wishbone where your backbone should be.