Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WillS on November 22, 2012, 10:30:43 am
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How many attempts did it take you guys to end up with a success? I've managed to ruin three yew staves and 6 ash staves so far, and I still don't have a functional bow! I've only tried making longbows so far, using various dimensions and methods.
I've read TBB volumes 1-3 over and over again to the point I could probably quote from them, and have been absorbing and digesting as much as I can on various forums for months, and yet when it comes to making an actual bow, they either break during tillering or suddenly go soggy and develop massive chrysals at places I just didn't expect them to! Am I expecting too much and this is how it goes, or is something going horribly wrong and I should have at least got one bow out of it by now?
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It took me 10 years before I built a "real" bow. In those days we didn't have the internet and PA. All I had were a few books that I had to interpert. I think George Tsoukalas broke the first 14 he built. I'm sure you will hear from others with similar experiences.
The one thing that really helped me to make my first successful bow and all the others since then was patience. Once I learned that, took my time and made each bit of wood removal thoughtful my bows improved.
Tell us your method of building bows from the stave through the process.
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Well if I use the latest "failure" as an example (although I know it's not really a failure, it's just a way of learning!)
I take the stave which I split from an ash log that had been seasoned for 6 months. I drew a string line and cut off any length I didn't need. I made it 200mm long, and was using the dimensions from norwegianwarbows.com. I was following dimensions for a 90lb bow, thinking it would be easier to work down a well-tillered bow instead of aiming to hit my target draw weight (60lb) in one go.
Once the back had been marked, it was drawknifed and hatcheted to a rough shape, and I did the same for the sides. I left the stave for about a month to season further, then slowly started floor tillering. I suddenly noticed both tips about 5 inches in develop heavy hinges and go soft, and no matter how much of the belly I removed each side of the hinge, all the movement of the limbs were in those two spots. The chrysals appeared even though I was nowhere near full brace or draw weight.
Am I just using the wrong bow style for ash? Should I forget my longbow idea and go for a flatbow instead?
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For me, I had hands on help from an experienced bow maker on my first. I did the work, but under the watchful eye of someone who knew through making them, what to do and not to do. Like you, I had read everything available to me up to that point. With all that book knowledge, I really didn't know sic' em from come 'ere. First one turned out great. Still shooting it nearly 20 years later. The next several were more of a challenge as I was on my own. Some worked, some didn't. Every stave is different, requiring a different approach to certain things. Still, the instructions I got on the first one, translated into hands-on knowledge and experience. Straight up the learning curve early on, and more of an ability to parlay that experience on the next one. This may not be of much help to you if you have no access to an accomplished bow maker. If you do, bribe, or beg, them for help. Usually, just asking is all it takes for most I've known. If you don't know any, and you will go it alone, realize that your learning what not to do by doing it, as opposed to someone saying "don't do that" and saving you the time. A much tougher slog, but with persistence and bulldog determination, you'll get there.
Edit; Above I said "the next several were more of a challenge". Upon reading that, I submit this change. "All my subsequent bows were more of a challenge." Every stave I've worked has presented a new set of challenges, requiring a different approach than the last. And to this day, some work, some don't. My success rate is simply higher now.
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Maybe you could do a build along here on the forum
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Will, so when you say, longbow, are you rounding the belly and making the bow long and narrow? If so, then, yes, make a flatbow from the ash. Make a simple bow that works then make another and another with minor changes to each successive bow until you notice changes in the bow itself. You should overbuild the first bow so that it survives even though it will not cast the arrow as fast as it could. So keep the width of the limbs wide and parallel for most of its length then taper to tips.
The heavier the bow the more likely it is to break or set, so make the bow medium to light. Rough out the handle before you tiller but only so small as to get your hand around it as you will finish the handle later. But you don't want a big, square block of wood for the handle whilst tiller; you want something comfortable. Same with the tips; leave the last six inches as big as possible but small enough that you can get a string on it. But taper those big tips into the limb. Same with the handle; taper the big handle into limbs.
Of course you don't carve the back of the bow but you will carve the belly and square the edges as though you were making a thin 2x4. The belly will be flat all the way to the stiff tips where it will ramp up for the last 6" or so. Make the ramps to the tips and the ramps to the handle even on both limbs.
You should post some pics of your progress for help too, if possible.
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I love this forum - really great advice guys, thanks!
Funnily enough I do have access to an experienced bowyer, and by working with him the last yew stave I had ended up being a bow, but he saved my poor attempt so I cant consider it a success from my point of view! Learned a huge amount though.
Steve, I'm gonna do exactly as you've suggested with my next one, rather than trying to build the longbow I want without enough experience!
I'd love to be able to have something to post on here as a result!
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I would suggest you start with a simple style bow and learn proper tillering and how to see proper tiller. Once you build a few like this you can expand your horizons. Tillering is the common thread with all wood bows so learning it is paramont to building any bow.
Also, don't start with a 90# bow design to build a 60# bow. Aim for 60# from the start. You could be overstressing the stave early in the process.
If the hinges are back to belly, either the wood was not cured well or you are overstressing the tips at floor tiller. Leave your tips wide(1/2"-1") and thick so they don't bend at all. You can get them bending later if they need it.
You should be able to floor tiller any stave, seasoned or wet without overstressing the limbs. All you want to do is bend the limbs just enough(no more than 4" to 5") to see how well they bend early in the process. If they appear to bend well go to a long string (just longer than the stave), put the bow up on the tiller tree and with slight pressure see if both limbs bend evenly and together.
Never over pull the stave more then the intended draw weight or past the intended draw length. In the early stages of tillering you will only be pulling the bow on the tiller tree an inch or two at a time and try not to hold it there for too long. You are educating your stave to bend so you don't want to teach it unnecessary stuff. Take it slow and easy. If you feel frustation or anger, walk away and come back later after you have cleared your mind.
Pics are always a big help for us so we can see and understand the problems. Ask lots of questions!!! ;)
Also, each bow style has woods that work best. ELB style bows need compression strong wood because all the stress is down the center(crown) of the belly. After you get experience, ash might make a good, heavy ELB for you but for now learn proper till with a flatbow. For now you would be better served building an overbuilt flat bow as per Paul Comstock("The Bent Stick"). 1 3/4" to 2" wide at the fades and out to about 6" to 8" from the tips then taper to 1/2" tips.
For a 28" draw the bow length could be from 66" to 68" or longer.
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Three tries with hickory boards and my first stave bow is still shooting great. Never stop thinking about what may happen later as a result of what your doing now. Thats my best advice.
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I'd suggest taking Pat's advice of doing the 'overbuilt' Comstock bow from tbb 1 as your first. I did that for my first and it is still shooting
14 yrs later, even took a couple deer with it along the way. Mine was from 65 yr old seasoned osage fence post and I admit using osage
helps as it is very forgiving but the design is all so forgiving as well as durable and functional. Heres what my first looks like, wide, flat and durable. Good luck, you'll get there man.
Greg
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Dont feel discouraged! ive failed every stave bow ive tried ::) i really think that you just keep going until you get it right. once you've made your first the rest should come a bit easier because of what you've learned. Something you can try doing, is to try to find the reason why that bow broke, every time you will collect more reasons why it failed, learn from it, and apply it to your next bow.
Writing down those reasons may help too.
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Sounds like the If you have access to drier staves or use a board you may have better success. Once you know what it feels like to work with dry wood you should be able to apply that to other staves .
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14 tries spread out over 3 years before I got a bow I could hunt with and mostly from using back locust staves. I didn't know how to differentiate the good wood from the bad and nor did I know to chase a ring on BL. Jawge
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Sounds like you need a tillering gizmo.
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Stay with it! There are some great helpers on this site and they have all been giving you great advice (probably all of us have broken lots of bows). I don't know much about the types of wood that you have been using - but it might be easier on your confidence if you go with something tension strong and less susceptible to breakage like white oak, hickory, or pecan. My first shooter was from a pecan sapling and was a fairly simple design, barely bending in the handle and a full 1 3/4" wide over 60% of the limb length - about 41lbs. of draw weight. Go longer and wider until you get one flinging arrows. Once you get a shooter or two under your belt, then try some of the more ambitious designs that you have been reading about. Good luck to you and Happy Thanksgiving!
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Every one of these replies has been helpful and appreciated - can't go through each and reply individually but I really do take on board everything that's been said!
There is one thing that's been knocking around in my head for a while though, having failed so often at making ash into the classic ELB shape (and seeing so many people succeed using ash with this narrow, deep design)
In my mind, an English longbow should be simple. They were produced in their thousands for warfare, there are no laminations or setback handles etc. They've been recorded having been made from yew (obviously) but also ash and elm etc. It seems almost backwards to me that it's easier to make a more complicated design with narrow handles, changing taper limbs and so on.
I've read quite a few online guides about making ash longbows, and seen numerous bowyers make them with apparent ease. The first thing I ever read about making a longbow was the Backstreet Bowyer webpage, where Alan Blackham spoke about his success with ash using a simple long, narrow design and getting bows up to 120#. I think this is one of the reasons I feel so lost, as using a successful design on the same species of wood just isn't working.
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One of the best things I learned is to stop and walk away from a bow when you start questioning your next move. If you get a few going in different stages, you a less likely to rush a mistake. Just stop and go to a different project. I have ruined a lot of good wood trying to force a bow out of it. I have better luck making a bow over a period of time.
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One of the best things I learned is to stop and walk away from a bow when you start questioning your next move. If you get a few going in different stages, you a less likely to rush a mistake. Just stop and go to a different project. I have ruined a lot of good wood trying to force a bow out of it. I have better luck making a bow over a period of time.
Agreed. I keep lots of staves at different stages, if I get frustrated with a certain part of the process such as tillering out a character stave >:(, I stop and chase rings, split some logs, glue tips on or anything to get my mind off of it. Bowmaking is a very challenging hobby and thats part of what makes it so much fun and so addictive at the same time. My first two attempts at selfbows were ash, the first one broke after about 50 shots and the second survived but took a huge amount of set. Osage, hackberry or hickory would be a much better choice for you if you have access to any of them. Good Luck and dont give up :)
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Don't worry, having a breaking streak i'm sure has happened to all of us. What usually breaks bows is being rushed and cocky, but there's many other factors ass well. Just go slow, pay attention to the details and you'll get a shooter soon enough!
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I broke 3, they were all laminated which took a lot of time to put together. My biggest problem was not tillering the proper way, TaKE 'ER Slow And Steady I was to hasty. Now I'am doing simple board bows to get the hang of tillering and limb shaping. Not much invovled with that, just go to Home Depot and pick up some Red Oak. $10.00 for a 1x2 @ 6 feet long.
I feel your agony, going through all that labour working a stave and having failure after failure....hang in there.
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WillS,
I have no experience with either ash or a long, narrow longbow. But I feel like right now I could easily make one. All I'd want to know is the properties of ash and I'd go at it. I'd just want to know if ash is strong in compression/tension.
If I wanted a a radiused belly, for whatever reason, and not having any experience, I would go with a small radius and build the bow. If the bow was successful I'd build another with more radius and maybe I'd make it a little heavier. But I would know after the second bow if the radius would work with ash.
But I gained my skill and confidence from flatbows.
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Hi Will,
Have you thought about doing a couple of board bows? Jawge and Poor Folk Bows have some nice intro bows. They are easier to start with and great for learning tillering. I really like the two I made and while the first came out light @30#, the second one hit my target weight at #45.
I just made an ash longbow (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34764.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34764.0.html)) and took a middle ground between a board and a stave. I found a nice 3"x3"x8' Ash post at a local sawmill and treated it like a stave (chasing a growth ring). I have a few more bows in the pipeline (including one for the red oak bow trade) before I break out my first true stave. I have some persimmon and black walnut that should be dry enough by February.
Best of luck,
Matt
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Thats a good point Matt. Its much better to spend 100$ on boards and ruin 10/15 bows than to spend tons on staves(500$+) or trade a ton of stuff and get the same results. Board bows can be less desirable, but if planned well and worked carefully they will really work out well!
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Board bows can be less desirable, but if planned well and worked carefully they will really work out well!
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IMO there is no shame in a board bow. You can chase a ring just like a stave and most could not tell the difference. If primitive man could walk into a lumber yard and get some wood, I bet he would.
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That being said about board bows, the truth about staves is that they are even cheaper, the only down side is a little work and some patience to let them season. If you cut your own staves you get the best of both worlds.
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there is nothing less desireable about a board bow, heck that's what a laminated bow is, all a board is is a decrowned stave and they make some killer bows, that said, do 4 thing's, dont give up, dont work on one pissed off, ask questions, there's no stupid ?, just stupid answers, and build a tillering gizzmo, you'll find it at the top of the how to page, bub
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I only meant that to me a board bow is less cool looking, its not as aesthetically pleasing to me as a stave bow is. To me, with the exception of laminates and some well made board bows, they are less desirable to me. I guess its true that boards are just as good, ive made a few and i think they work well. I do think i will continue with board bows because they are much easier to tiller than stave bows, and because they are able to be cut out on the band saw to thickness and shape within a few hrs. I like being able to make several in a relatively short amount of time just because i have so many i would like to make for people who would really enjoy them. As i progress through bow-making i will begin to stockpile staves by the wagon, so eventually i wont need to go buy boards unless i am going to make one for a board bow trade or something. I honestly have so many BL trees on my property all of which could yield about 10 staves per smaller tree and maybe 20 for the bigger ones. Anyway, i do believe that if you go on a bowbreaking streak that you would be rather tired of it and want to give up, and of course you will never get better and wont progress the way you want to if you give up.
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I was going to stay off this thread as most of it has already been said, but I thought I'd just try to offer a few words on ELBs and Ash.
An ELB seems like it should be easy, but like most of bow making it's deceptive and easy to get lured into trying for too much draw weight from too short a bow. Some people have success with Ash but many have a lot of failures before getting it right.
Some of the best results seem to be with the grain running back to belly rather than across the back, also I think heat tempering of the belly and or trapping the back (or at least a squareish cross section) is required.
Personally I don't much like Ash, I find working it is hard on my elbows and it seems to take a lot of set.
Most of bow making is simply patience and getting your eye in so you can see slight errors in the curve before they accumulate. When in doubt stop, measure the thickness every few inches, but more important use your fingers and eyes. When in doubt stop think ask look feel walk away.
We all screw up... dunno if you saw my last ELB... gorgeous, then it folded in half... yeah I was down, felt like I'd been kicked in the guts, but I'm learning from it and making the repair.
At the end of the day, you only have to please yourself, it's not a competition, don't be too hard on yourself. Take a break, make some fun stuff, tie a couple of Hazel branches with their thicker ends together and put a string on 'em, mess about a bit try to get your feel and your eye in tune.
Once you get one good one you will wonder what the problem was! Trust me, it's mostly about eye, patience and knowing when to quit for the day.
Good luck
Del
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I am always hesitant to add my 2 cents on posts like these because of my limited experience. I have only been making bows for about a year and made about 15, so far. I probably have about a 50% success rate and all have been from boards. My first few were unbacked bows from the HD or Lowes red oak wood. Since then I have worked mostly with backed bows and used woods such as hickory, white oak, ipe, osage, and bullet wood. All have been more of a flat bow design than elb from pyramids to mollegabets. While I know there is value in longevity to a single growth ring back, I have seen many fine bows in person, on this site and others made from boards. I intend to eventually tackle "staves" ( I have some crepe myrtle and osage), but don't feel like I am ready to deal with some of the difficulties you run into with most staves I have seen as most are not completely straight. I am still dealing with basic tillering. I think I am glad I didn't start with staves or I'm afraid I might have been discouraged early on and not made it as far as I have. I would be glad to talk to you about it, if you like. PM me and I'll send you my contact info and I'll give you the details on my successes and failures if you think you might like to try a different direction.
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Can't thank you all enough!
I think my next step is to go for an ash flatbow, keeping it as simple and lightweight as possible. I'll leave the ELB designs for the yew I've got seasoning until I feel comfortable enough reading a stave and suiting design variations to different wood.
For what its worth, I wasn't a bit fan of board bows until I realised how time consuming and eclectic a stave bow was. I used to think staves were "TRUE" bows, but then having messed up so many, my desire to have a working bow outdid the desire to feel like a primitive/paleo bowyer. I felt the same way about laminated bows as well, but im being drawn to them more now.
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there is nothing less desireable about a board bow, heck that's what a laminated bow is, all a board is is a decrowned stave and they make some killer bows,, bub
I agree with so many points you guys have made about what to try and sometimes things are not what they seem. In other words it's not always Cut & Dry...! I think I will stick with board bows for a while, I may try a laminate in the near future, (3 piece Take down) as I have a few risers I built about 8 months ago. Staves on the other hand I will stay away from at this point in time. Just not that confident and not enough experience to tackle such a project. I do admire the experienced bowyers that build them and I look at many of the build-a-longs.
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Try for a bend in the handle bow design. Novices often get hinges at the fades or not bending enough.
The natives knew it was the most simple and effective design.
Widest part at handle and tapers down to the tips. Leave the last 8 inches stiff. Maybe this will help you preventing hinges at the tips? Make it 70 inches just to be safe as it sounds like you havent figured out how to tiller all that well yet. Allowing the inner limbs/handle to bend more allows less strain on the rest of the limbs. I haven't broken a bend in the handle bow in a long time. Although i think i did break my last "handle" bow. :D
my .02
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14 tries spread out over 3 years before I got a bow I could hunt with and mostly from using back locust staves. I didn't know how to differentiate the good wood from the bad and nor did I know to chase a ring on BL. Jawge
Quitters never win.
Winners never quit.
But those that never win and never quit often end up making great bowyers!
If you had a lick of sense you would quit this silly abitition to make you own bow, go to the nearest sporting goods shop and like a good sheep, BUY A MASS PRODUCED, SOUL-LESS, TRAINING-WHEELS-EQUIPPED COMPOUND .
But it is obvious that you are one of us. You won't settle for that. Well, good for you! Grab another stick of wood, get started, and post pics and questions as you go. There are a lot of folks in here that will do their danged best to help you out!
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Will , Like Del was getting at, some bow woods are more forgiving than others. Take vine maple for instance, I find it very easy to make a bow from. When I first started building bows I had lots of mountain maple also very forgiving, I was lucky! When I finally tried something else, Cascara, Which I'm told is very similar to yew, I built it the same as I did my vine and mountain maple bows and the first time I pulled it to full draw it blew into a million pieces. I don't know where you live but you no doubt can get your hands on a more workable piece for a beginner. I guarantee there will be someone out there who can help you out. Once you get one that will actually shoot you'll be over the hump and you'll be turning out lots fine bows. Dale
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" I pulled it to full draw it blew into a million pieces" :(
Good points, Dale.