Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Stick Bender on June 24, 2017, 07:42:45 am
-
Hi Fellas this is a short working limb so called High gear bow it's 65 in. Ntn 12 in handle /fades lever bow about 19 1/2 working limb pulled to 29 in. @46 lb any thoughts on this full draw tree shot sorry for the poor pic had to take a vid crop the wife is still sleeping ? It also has 3/16 positive tiller left limb is bottom limb
-
I think it looks pretty good. Have you shot it yet? If so, how does it feel?
-
Yep shoots nice even with those bricks on the end haven't thinned and narrowed them yet surprised the heck out of me that it didn't have any hànd shock with them spotted a questionable little splinter coming out of a undulation so I supper glued it and flaxed tapered patched it have to wait tell next week end to finish & put it threw the chrony but surprising little stack at my draw
-
I'm not familiar with the tiller of these lever bows(Homie,Molle) but to me the outer working limb should share the bend more.
-
Thanks Pat this is only the second one of these I have made I'm figuring it out too but I was told that you have to keep the outers stiff on this style bow other wise it kills the performance there a little tuffer to tiller at least for me with the short working limb
-
Your tiller looks pretty good as far as I can see. I'd like to see it braced/unbraced, and closer up. I've only made one, from oceanspray, and blackhawk helped me through the tillering. I found it the most complicated and delicate tillering I've ever done. If I remember, he recommended ever so slight movement in the levers.
I had done what you did, using a picture out of one of the TBB volumes and yet I got a lot of criticism that the upper limbs were too stiff. By the time I got done getting the ever-so-slight movement clear out to the tips I had lost the poundage I wanted and shelved the project. But it shoots good for what it is. I did a takedown handle and rawide back.
But I think he is right and that the whole limb needs to work to some degree. Otherwise you have half a limb not working and therefore violating the rule of mass, etc. I kind of say that tounge-in-cheek because I think the design idea of a wide, working lower limb and narrow levers are the fastest bows. (I'm thinking hunting type bow). I've always wanted to explore this concept more but of course I have a laundry list of ideas that I want to get to.
-
Steve your right about these bows in the sense that they lose weight quick with small amounts of scraping I collected a lot of full draw pics from guys around here that make these bows on a regular basis and it seemed that all of them had the stiff outers it will be interesting to get some Chrono numbers on this one being the high gear style basically a long bow with short working limbs & I can always bring the outers around more if need be ,I'm trying to get a lower weight hunting bow for cold weather late season hunting with good performance !
-
I'm wondering if getting the levers bending slightly is just a measuring stick for getting the tips/levers as light as possible. Maybe perfect is getting them bending slightly and then backing up one scrape but very few of us have mastered that ;).
-
With the bow at brace eye ball down the edge of your limb.Look for nice even bend in the working section.No stiff spots.It'll go straight at that lever.You make it bend more just beneath the fades you'll lose the advantage of lower string angle.I think Ritches' bow is very close to where it should be for that design.
-
I don't know but those tips are still thick & wide yet 3/4 thick 1 1/4 wide at the static fade to 1 in. at the tips at least 2 oz of weight yet I would guess , with a 530 grain arrow 11 pluss gpp arrow it's shooting average 152 fps at 46 lbs with b50 tiller string so hopefully by the time I get them lightened up & a 8 strand FF string sanded & shot in I'm thinking 45 lb @29 163-166 fps 530 grain hunting arrow I would be happy !
-
Ok thanks Ed posted at the same time as you some times you can split hairs & lose weight quick with these short working limb bows , but you have made more of this style bow then just about any body here so I appreciate your input I checked with the strait edge & visually the limbs are about as even as any bow I have made but I think at my draw length I'm just about maxed on width and length on this one at least at my skill level I think I could have made a better bow starting wider & side tillering to weight next one I will know !
-
For hunting I agree ease of draw on those cold ass mornings after a couple of hours of sitting is nice.Main thing to hit the sweet spot as with all bows.
-
With this type of lever(Molle), narrow but thick, it would be hard to make them bend at all because of the "I" beam effect and I don't think they are suppose to bend but I do think more of the working limb should. With a Holmgaard style lever, more rounded, I think they can and probably should bend slightly at full draw.
-
Yes I've got them to slightly bend myself,but you don't want them to get soooo narrow at the base of the lever that they get unstable at the middle of the lever and bow either.It's a balancing act.A slight reflex I've put on them before too then.Rounding the belly of them is the best too.
-
Ritch...I think because you wanted a longer handle you set the design in.When you added levers that put more strain on it for as wide as it was.Heat treatment does wonders on hickory though.The lower poundage will help it maintain I think.You should end up with a nice bow.Show her to us when your all done.
-
I would probably remove some more wood from the outer limbs (not the stiff part), but the second half of the bending portion of each limb. As it is now, most of the work is being done in the early limbs. that's where it would break if you pushed it. But it does look good.
-
The idea behind that design is good only if your limbs don't take set. Less working limb is always more efficient. The problem with designs using less working limb is that they usually take set. The no set tillering technique is the best way to tiller them out because it lets you know if you need more working limb or not. I always use as little working limb as I can get away with and more often than not I need most of the limb to bend to avoid taking set. I think your tiller looks good. When you test the bow out you can allow about 7 fps for the extra arrow weight and about 7 fps for the b50 string. Once you lighten up the outer limbs you should be 170 or better allowing for those two things.
-
The last one I made the got the levers so light that they where on the verge of bending but on this design I was looking for kinda a flight bow for shooting heavier arrows nothing new all this bow designing has been done before but I wasnt trying to clone any paticular design but I have learned more on this bow in my short bow making experience then just about any other but I still think there is a lot of mass to be lost yet with out effecting the working limb & I think I could still lose a 1/16 on width of working limb & be ok still will see I will post when done but want to get it shot in with 500 arrows so the chrono numbers are real !
-
Ok thanks Steve I appreciate the comments I didn't see your post prior to the last one but the bow did take some set will post the profile when done I think on the design thread you recommended 43 lb at my specs I probably could have avoided the set following your advice but hope to end up with a decent bow yet & have the osage version coming up to apply what I learned on this
-
If the front view profile is like this (design discussed in tbb3/4), it makes more sense for it to bend more close to the grip? But if the bending limbs have constant width, maybe they should bend more, closer to the tips?
(https://i.imgur.com/cR7Q1tq.png)
sorry if it's not ok to post screenshots of TBB. I think it's fair use but.. I'll remove it if it's not
-
what STeve said,, (SH) (-P
-
Does any body have a link to Badgers zero set tiller thread ?
-
This is a copy from Stickbow.com
I posted this in a thread a while back and had a good response on it and I often get questions on it so I thought I would dedicate a thread to it. I don't believe that absolute no set tillering is actually possible all the time but the ideal is to strive for it. No set tillering is simply a method of monitoring the condition of your wood as you progress through the tillering stages. Once you do this a few times you will find yourself cringing when you feel your wood start to give up a bit. Their are a few prerequisites to no set tillering. 1. You don't brace the bow when it is still too strong 2. Never! bend a bow any further than what it takes to expose an area that needs work. 3. Understand the concept of side tillering. 4. Be ready to accept that your bow may not be able to successfully reach the desired target weight and still perform as you wish. I like to use this with the mass principle so I know I have enough wood to start off with. Lets say your bow is floor tillered and ready to put on a tiller tree with a long string. The first step is to measure how much weight it draws at a specific amount of inches, lets say you pull the string 6", the tiller is perfect so you take a reading at 6" of 18#. Pull the same 6" about 20 times or so and measure the weight again. Is it still 18#? If not the wood is allready starting to breakdown. If it is still 18# then you are good to go. ( the 18# is just an example and will vary greatly depending on the length of your long string) If you did start to loose some weight some adjustments are in order as the bow will only continue to breakdown even further as you increase the draw. The first thing I do in this case is look for areas on the limb I can increase the bend, if the bend is nice and equal throughout the limb I simply need to make the stave a bit thinner and reduce strain keeping the tiller shape adjusted. Once I have made these adjustments I will need to remeasure my benchmark weight and start over. If you are new Jawges web sight will give you a good plan for when to brace the bow. Once the bow is braced the process starts over, draw the bow say 10" and note the draw weight, repeat that draw about 20 times and nothe the draw weight again, if it hasn't dropped and no adjustments are needed then go to 11" draw and repeat the process of several draws to 11". Now go back to 10" and see if the draw weight has remained the same. If it has not dropped advance to 12" and repeat the process, always going back to the 10" benchmark to see if the weight has dropped. Anytime you have to remove wood reset your benchmark to the furthest point you have draw it so far. Now simply continue with this procedure till you hit your target draw weight. One of the biggest losses of power in a wood bow compared to a glass bow is chalked up to hysterisis in the wood. By keeping the wood in a pristine condition you will be pleaseantly surprised at how little hysterisis wood actually has.
-
Ok thanks DC sounds like a good way to find the sweet spot on mass too !
-
Well got this bow shooting this week end I ended up at 43 1/2 @29 even with the set I ended up better then I thought real numbers after 150 pluss arrows 12 gpp 520 grain arrow Im averaging 162 fps I dont have a 10 gpp arrow but it wood be well over 170 fps it has suprising little stack & the f/d is fairly consistent this bow is very quiet & smooth some dont like to post less then perfect bows but I post the good bad & ugly it will make a decent light weight hunter its a blast to shoot these lighter bows & it shoots faster then some of my first couple 50 lb bows !
-
Tips
-
Set
-
Your performance is great. You can hunt anything with that bow using the same 520 grain arrow.
-
That's an A+ I'd say.It'll hang in there.It's harder to do with wooden arrows putting a high percentage of weight forward.Easier with carbides.I think you'd be surprised by the penetration you'd get with 43.5#'s.
-
Thanks guys Steve nothings new but I probably would have never thought about making a bow like this with out reading some of your writings your more of a asset to the archery group then you probably know Thanks ! Im starting to take a real interest in making these lighter weight bows never relliesed the hidden potential maybe because of my 3 million mile body but they are fun & deadly to and hickory is a good canadate never really understood why some say hickory is a dog of a bow wood after I finish a osage bow Im working on Im going to try another hickory with longer limbs & see if it will hold some reflex I think I could get 170s plus 11 gpp !
-
great performance on that one, congrats,,hope you get to shoot it though the real chrono,(a deer)
-
From your lips to the dear gods ears there Brad I would love to poke one with it this bow is very quiet I don't think it needs silencers I'm trying to figure out why, so I can apply it to future bows the only thing I can figure is it's dumping most of its energy in to the arrow ?
-
the only thing I can figure is it's dumping most of its energy in to the arrow ?
So how is it doing that? ;D ;D ;D
-
Must be magic (-S
-
lets see a video of that bow shooting,, )F(
-
I'm working arrows up for it now as soon as I get them done I will shoot one for you :NN
-
Well I decided to put the osage one on the back burner & continue on with hickory I'm still working out the design but thinking 67 1/2 ntn 4 in. Of progressive reflex via Beadman form maybe 1 3/4 wide to start ,no set tiller & working mass down side tiller hoping to hold 2 in. Reflex 46-48 lb looking for mid 170s fps any body have any thoughts ? This is a nice Shag Bark wide stave never worked Shag Bark before only Pig Nut & Pecan with this stave I can pretty much go where I want ,it's a year off the stump but going to ruff down & hot box it ?
-
I see some bug damage, better send it to me (AT)
-
You woundnt like it Brad it's not osage just 2nd string hickory )P(