Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bjrogg on March 28, 2024, 06:11:10 pm
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I’m going to start a thread here to show how we can learn so much from a piece of basically scrap wood.
Something you aren’t going to feel so bad about if it doesn’t work out.
I’m going to start out with this pretty knarly piece of Osage.
It’s short, crooked and has a limb coming out of it.
Bjrogg
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I cut off the end to see where my back is going to be
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Remember this isn’t about showing exactly how to do everything.
It’s just getting someone who’s a little nervous about trying something on their expensive stave they’ve never done before. To give them a chance to try it on something less valuable.
I’ll explain some of the how but mostly I hope to get some to see what they can learn from scraps.
The first thing we can learn is how to chase a ring.
Bjrogg
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Watching
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I like good dry Osage for chasing rings. It’s harder wood but I can really hear and feel the early wood just above my ring.
I leave a little early wood with my draw knife and then come back and clean it up with my scraper.
I find in my shop. I can see the rings better with the light source above and behind me.
Bjrogg
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Glad to entertain you Arvin. Maybe we can learn something together. If anyone wants to contribute helpful tips feel free to do so. I like learning stuff to.
Sometimes it helps to mark the edge of ring with pencil.
Here I went around the knot with draw knife leaving a little bit on opposite side.
Then I cleaned it up with scraper so I could clearly see where I was.
Then I removed the rest of the ring from opposite direction.
Bjrogg
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Start from the side you think has the lowest ring. Start on that ring and don’t get lost. Keep cleaning it up with scraper only going a few inches at a time with draw knife in between.
DONT SKIP AROUND. You have to follow the same ring.
It should look like this when you’re done
Bjrogg
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Seal the back right away to prevent it from checking.
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When it drys we can try another technique.
This skill you never completely master. It can sometimes go very badly.
Most of the time it works well for me.
I use mostly hand tools. Not because I want to be more primitive but because I feel they work so well for the job.
For removing large amounts of wood from the stave I often use belly splits.
They make tools for this but I don’t have one yet. Working on that.
I wouldn’t suggest using your favorite draw knife for this but this one was beat on long before I got my hands on it. I’m going to basically use it like a froe.
Bjrogg
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I help guide the split with my screwdriver trying to keep it in the same ring as we go.
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That went pretty good.
Now we have another ring we can chase.
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Belly split along side main
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After I chase a ring I remove another belly split. I chase a ring on it. And then take one last belly split.
That piece of scrap allowed us to
Chase four rings. They don’t take as long on these little staves either but still good practice
Make three belly splits.
It gave us a inventory of
Either four really short stave to play with
Or four really small billets to play with.
Either way there’s more to learn.
I wasn’t originally thinking it but maybe a handle splice.
Bjrogg
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Lookin good Bj! I’m watching this too
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Thanks Dave I’ve been working on this on the leatherwall site. I think even some of the veterans might enjoy this.
I have to sort out my pictures
Doing everything on my phone and some photos are reduced and some aren’t.
Probably going to stop here for a bit.
Bjrogg
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I really suggest if you are serious about building bows that you build a caul first. You’ll never regret it.
I put my little billet on my caul and use my heat gun .
I’m clamped it as I go. I like the bar clamps best but I use c clamps too.
Bjrogg
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Straightening
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After
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I got to much heat around the back I rushed it. Should have cleaned the fuzzy stuff off first and worked a larger area moving around more.
At least it’s just kindling
I think it will work though
Bjrogg
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I straighten out the second little billet and prep it for splicing
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Interesting. Those bows are often the most fun to make and shoot (if they work out)!
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Interesting stuff, Brian. Thanks for sharing.
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Interesting. Those bows are often the most fun to make and shoot (if they work out)!
I think so to Aksel. I always enjoy playing with these little guys.
Honestly I need more practice with my splicing skills to.
My first attempt the fit was good but the limb alignment wasn’t.
Good thing it’s just a piece of kindling.
I cut it off and tried again.
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Second attempt
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I think that might work. I’m going to have to build it up somehow it’s thinner than limbs and it can’t flex or it will fail
Bjrogg
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Interesting stuff, Brian. Thanks for sharing.
Keep watching Mr Badger. This piece of kindling still has much to teach us.
I hope you give it a try on your firewood.
Bjrogg
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Now I have plenty of length for my very narrow stave.
I really need to practice and use this skill more. If you master this skill you open yourself up to a whole new world of possibilities for wood and unbraced profiles to play with.
Bjrogg
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I think while the glue is drying I’ll practice with my two other pieces of firewood.
Bjrogg
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It’s not the prettiest splice I’ve ever made. Probably should have steamed it I’m sure I could have gotten it to fit better.
I think it’ll work. I plan on building it up a little eventually.
Bjrogg
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Next I clean up the limbs and reduce them a bit. Then straighten the limbs one at a time
I leave the splice off the caul. I don’t want to stress it or heat it.
Bjrogg
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Straightening firewood
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It might need a little tweaking but I like where it going.
Bjrogg
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I think I’m going to build up my handle now.
I start out by gently but firmly clamping my stave to my caul
Then I use just the right thickness of wood and make a pencil line on both sides of my handle.
Then I make a nice flat surface for my glue line with my file by filing to my line.
When I build up a handle I don’t use a block. I use multiple thin layers of wood. This stops it from popping off at glue line.
I go to my personal lumberyard. I cut these from tree branches on my table saw
Then I size all the glue surfaces liberally with tb2 and clamp every inch
Bjrogg
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Building up handle on firewood
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Now we will let the glue dry and cure.
A brief summary of what we have learned from this knarly piece of Osage
We chased four rings
Did three belly splits
One unsuccessful handle splice and two successful ones
Straightened four limbs
Built up a handle
That’s a lot of practice from this piece of scrap wood. Your mileage may vary but it’s worth giving it a try.
I’ll get back to it after the glue dries good and I can start tilling
Bjrogg
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Excellent build along, Brian. :OK Years ago a friend gave me 3 osage staves that should have been firewood, with every malady you could think of for bow building wood. I spent all winter working these staves and by spring I came out with 5, shootable bows. Not the prettiest bows and some low weight but 5 shootable bows. My big take away from this experience is with patience, experimentation and a goal you can build shootable bows and learn a lot about the wood and the process.
Thanks for this build along, Brian. I'm sure it will encourage others that they can do it too.
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I agree with everyone else. This has been pretty cool to follow. Kinda inspiring for me really. Making me want to go out to my shop and see what I’ve got laying around out there. I know I’ve got 4 or 5 pieces of stuff out there that I can play with. Some actually should make a decent bow with some patience and a little TLC. Thanks Brian.
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I agree with everyone else. This has been pretty cool to follow. Kinda inspiring for me really. Making me want to go out to my shop and see what I’ve got laying around out there. I know I’ve got 4 or 5 pieces of stuff out there that I can play with. Some actually should make a decent bow with some patience and a little TLC. Thanks Brian.
Thanks Pat
Muskyman that’s exactly why I’m doing this. I want to encourage everyone to play with some wood. Experiment Have some fun
Speaking of fun back to kindling
Bjrogg
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I need to build up my handle on kindling.
It’s noticeably thinner than the fades. Very uneven surface. So thin I don’t want to file it flat.
I dry fit three really nice Osage shavings from my draw knife to the belly side of my splice. I probably should have done the back to.
Then I sized all the glue surfaces liberally and put them on the belly of splice again running through the handle and splice area.
Then I tightly wrap the whole sloppy mess with artificial sinew.
Hopefully when the tb2 dries the Osage shavings will stiffen my handle.
Bjrogg
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Then before I went home I glued on my tip overlays. I partially shape them but leave the string area high yet.
I used gorilla glue and it needs to be clamped.
I wrapped it first with artificial sinew and then used a small clamp to squeeze it tight.
These small rounded overlays can be hard to clamp. This works good
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This morning I took off the clamps
Then I used my bastard file to shape my tips.
I cleaned them up with Emory cloth and a razor blade for a scraper
Bjrogg
PS I don’t know what I’m going to get from this one. It might just be experience and a broken bow, but it’s gonna look good doing it.
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Got kindling to brace. Not a real pretty one.
Thought I’d take a couple pics before something breaks.
I’m still not confident with my handle. Wish I would’ve put Osage shavings on back of splice two.
Bjrogg
Didn’t blow apart yet
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Very nice build along BJ
I'd love to see more picture of your bandsaw. is it diy?
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Very cool Bj! Kindling bow is progressing nicely
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That is beyond cool can’t wait to see the rest. I’m learning big time from this
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It’s kinda like taking lemons and making lemonade 😁. It’s got me thinking 🤔 I’ve got a stave from a limb that I violated the outer ring in a couple places and has very thin growth rings that I might flattening the back on and try my first BBO bow with. Also got some stuff I could try splicing with.
Very cool post
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Thanks guys.
That’s the response I was hoping for.
You don’t have to use Osage either. I have used these same techniques with ash.
I belly split off the bore damage and chased a ring on the belly split.
Osage is nice to practice on though.
Feel free to add any lessons you try to this thread!
I think my class is on Easter break right now.
Will continue after break though
Bjrogg
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Great post Bj. Thankyou.
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I took a belly split off a mulberry stave in hopes of making a mulberry bow for the junior bow trade....tried chasing a ring on the belly split first to try and learn how...bit of a nightmare. Impressive that yall are able to chase a ring as it seems a bit overwhelming at this point. Granted the lighting in my garage is terrible but still...I think i saw someone somewhere say they used rubbing alcohol to help them keep track of the ring they are chasing...does that ring a bell?
Paul
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I took a belly split off a mulberry stave in hopes of making a mulberry bow for the junior bow trade....tried chasing a ring on the belly split first to try and learn how...bit of a nightmare. Impressive that yall are able to chase a ring as it seems a bit overwhelming at this point. Granted the lighting in my garage is terrible but still...I think i saw someone somewhere say they used rubbing alcohol to help them keep track of the ring they are chasing...does that ring a bell?
Paul
I’m glad you gave it a try Paul. It does seem very easy to get lost at first. I still struggle just a little trying to get started. It’s very important that you start out with your ring going from edge to edge. Once I get the same ring from edge to edge then I just work about four or five inches with my draw knife leaving just a little early wood. Then clean up with scrapper.
Look from different angles and directions. I have one direction I can clearly see them better from in my vice. I try very hard to use that to my advantage.
I did take clamps off of firewood today. Narrowed built up area to width of stave. Seems to be pretty good glue line.
This will be the handle area. I won’t finish shaping it until I am almost done tillering. It clamps in vice so much better shaped like this.
Bjrogg
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Just a few things I’ve noticed in my limited time chasing a ring. Lighting is very helpful. I have been taking a shop light and getting it right over my stave on top of my other lights. Seems to help a lot. The other thing I’ve noticed is that if your stave is really dry and you have good growth rings it makes it much easier. For me anyway. Definitely not as easy as some make it look Paul.
Good dry wood seemed to help me anyway. For what that’s worth to you. I’ve never heard about the alcohol thing but it might be worth a shot. Best advice I can give is to take your time and don’t rush it. My biggest problem is being patient.
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Charcoal or even colored sidewalk chalk. Not sure where your growth ring is? Give it a rubbing, wipe with a rag and the charcoal or chalk sticks in the crumbly early wood, makes I really pop!
Sunrise and sunset has always been my best time to chase rings, when that light is angled low. I point the stave in line with the sun and go to town. I have a desk lamp that has an adjustable arm and I can mimic that sunrise/set condition. It's one of those smokin' hot halogen lamps, so it really throws some powerful light, too. If I shut off all the other lights in the garage that helps, too.
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I'm really enjoying following this one. Thanks for posting. You make it look so easy!
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Thanks for sharing the tips guys.
Glad you are enjoying the thread.
I’m sorry but I got a little bit sidetracked again
Yesterday I had some work that needed to be done.
Then I had a Osage log that needed to be taken care of
Me and the young buck got it split into five staves last week and I have been trying to get the bark, sapwood and a ring chased on back.
Thought I’d share a few pictures of my progress
Bjrogg
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I start on one end.
I go down to this ring on right edge.
There are still rings above it on the left side.
Sometimes it can be confusing to know if they are above or below
I work from the one edge across to the other following my ring until I get all the way across from side to side.
Once I get this done it’s not nearly as confusing.
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I split off some of the extra bark and sapwood with my wedge.
Bjrogg
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Got this one coming my way. It’s number three.
Bjrogg
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Lookin like good stuff there Bj! Thanks for sharing.
Like others have already said here lighting is key. If I find myself working on tricky thinner ringed Osage or the like with lots of character or hills and valleys and such lighting is key. Obviously patients is what gets most of us. To help with this I take many breaks and walk away and come back to it with fresh eyes. I if find myself loosing the ring edge I change angle of light source to highlight the edge better. I use a bright soft lamp that I can move to different angles on my surface which helps. On tricky staves I use rounded scrapers and take my time. Lots of good info on this thread.
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Lookin like good stuff there Bj! Thanks for sharing.
Like others have already said here lighting is key. If I find myself working on tricky thinner ringed Osage or the like with lots of character or hills and valleys and such lighting is key. Obviously patients is what gets most of us. To help with this I take many breaks and walk away and come back to it with fresh eyes. I if find myself loosing the ring edge I change angle of light source to highlight the edge better. I use a bright soft lamp that I can move to different angles on my surface which helps. On tricky staves I use rounded scrapers and take my time. Lots of good info on this thread.
I remember one stave where I think I chased three complete rings scraping with a pocket knife. I would have gone to a thicker ring using a draw knife, but they were all thin as card stock. Funny, I lost that stave dealer's information shortly after.
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I got firewood bending a little. I call this vice tillering. I clamp limb in vice and reduce my tips. Then I get outers bending a little. Then I tapper thickness towards handle checking bend by pulling tip with my hand and watching my bend.
Bjrogg
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I got firewood bending a little. I call this vice tillering. I clamp limb in vice and reduce my tips. Then I get outers bending a little. Then I tapper thickness towards handle checking bend by pulling tip with my hand and watching my bend.
Bjrogg
thats awesome Bj. i do the same thing! the benefits of keep the handle blocky early on.
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I like my vice tillering method Dave.
It saves me a lot of steps walking over to my tree. Not saying this is my recommended way for a beginner but it’s how I do it.
I usually don’t make a tilling string. I vice tiller until I think I can get it strung low brace. Then I make a string and add twists to get it to proper brace height later.
I had to take my wife to doctors in city yesterday. Before I left the shop the night before I made a little custom wood filler.
I saved some of the dust from filling my red cedar.
Bjrogg
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One limb was slightly narrower on firewood. I’m probably going to be narrower than this when I finish shaping it but I decided to fill it in.
I liberally soak my area with glue.
Then I sprinkle dust over it. Let it soak and then press it into place with my fingers.
Then I repeat process
Then I put another coat of glue over top and let it cure.
Yesterday afternoon I filled it off.
Bjrogg
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Pictures
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Then I shaped my tips.
I decided to try red cedar. Might be a little softer than I like, but a good place to experiment
Bjrogg
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I made a string for firewood and my tips didn’t really line up. Normally I’d leave them wide and then adjust them to make string line up but I’m just working with what this one gave me.
I put it back on caul and tweaked it a little. I think it looks good but I don’t want to flex it yet.
Here’s kindling and firewood
Bjrogg
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Nice, inspirational build, Brian and I think that "firewood" is a perfect name for her. :OK
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Yes indeed inspiring. You make it look easy. I know you have a lot of experience that allows you to make this look easy so for those watching and following along remember to plan ahead and take it slow on such knarly pieces if starting out. It takes a special kind of Boyer to make a bow out of such pieces and may offer great options for those who don’t have premium staves or even decent staves. This thread is a great example to show that scrap knarly pieces of wood can be made to bow. The message I take from this build here is that if your availability to good bow wood is low then these pieces could be used to learn a ton about making self bows. Thanks again for posting Bj.
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Thanks Pat. Still hoping it doesn’t end up firewood. lol
Thanks Dave . You are certainly a very experienced and skilled bowyer to. I know you know how much time it takes to document stuff like this and I very much appreciate the build alongs you do to.
I’m still trying to stress the point that this whole experiment is to show how you can learn and practice your skills on scraps.
I have gained a lot of experience. Most of it from playing with scraps. It gives you the confidence to try things you are afraid to try on your good wood.
I’m not so much trying to show how to make a bow from scrap wood. Although it certainly is an objective and looks like a decent chance of pulling it off. Even if we didn’t succeed in making a bow we have gained a lot of experience.
When it comes to making your bow. Especially your first couple I suggest giving yourself the best possible chance of success.
Get as good of a piece of wood as you can.
Don’t try to short
Don’t try a radical Design
Practice your skills on scrap
Bjrogg
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I decided to play with kindling while waiting for firewood to acclimate.
I didn’t trust my handle splice yet. I could feel it flexing and I knew that dovetail joint wouldn’t take much of it.
Sure enough it failed.
I removed the artificial sinew and could see the dovetail joint did fail but the Osage shavings I glued on belly held good.
I decided to try another experiment.
I cleaned up the joint a little and then soaked it with thin super glue. I did it all without removing the Osage on the belly. Wouldn’t recommend it, but it’s a good place to experiment. I worked the super glue in then put the joint together.
After it dried good I filed it flat. Dry fit two Osage shavings to back of my splice.
Then sized all glue surfaces liberally with tb2 and wrapped the whole sloppy mess up very tight with artificial sinew.
I’m cautiously optimistic that this might work. Going to let it sit for at least 24 hours. The tb2 seems to dry slowly under my waxed sinew.
Bjrogg
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While I’m waiting to play with my scrap wood.
I process stave number 4.
Looked almost impossible before I started. This was a nice knot free, straight log. But it has very thin rings and most have had a lot of limbs rubbing against it. I had to go down a ways to get to a good ring.
First I split off my sapwood
Then I found a good ring in the lowest damaged area.
Then I went to one end and sealed last night.
This morning I split some more off.
I have this one coming my way now.
Not sure these are worth it but my cousin got this log for me and I know he would really like to see me get some bows from it.
Really good cardio workout to
Bjrogg
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Awesome Bj. Ya I had my brother in law over a while ago and was helping him build a bow. He later got a functioning bow in the end but commented how difficult physically it was. He said he was sore for a week. I told home to pace himself as he would be using different muscles that he normally did t use. It is a workout for sure if using hand tools. Getting a good sweat going whilst roughing out a stave is definitely cardio! 😁
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Yes I can feel how much better shape I’m in now than I was in January.
I first couple days I was feeling it. Now I’m pretty good. Do stop and sit quite regularly, but not bad for almost 63.
I did get firewood on my tree.
The right limb has three kinks in it. Almost tempted to put it on my caul again. It sure made the left limb look better.
Bjrogg
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Here’s firewood on my tree for first time.
I like the left limb.
The right one just plain looks ugly. Part of it is from the kinks in the unbraced profile. It just makes it look like a hinge where the deflex kink is about six inches right of the handle. It might be bending a little more than I like there to. It’s hard to tell looking.
My fingers tell me I’m close. My eyes are screaming a hinge. I’m watching for set in unbraced profile but it seems ok so far.
30 @ 25”
Bjrogg
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I did cycle an arrow through her.
Spine is to heavy but didn’t do to bad.
Bjrogg
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Nice!
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Firewood’s first shot
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My brother took a few pictures
First firewood
Bjrogg
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Then kindlings profiles.
Top limb outers a little stiff yet , but very narrow and wiggly there. I could probably fuss with it but this might be good enough for kindling
Bjrogg
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awesome work Bj. what was the draw on the firewood? Profile looks dang good. you made short work of those!
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Thank You Dave.
I didn’t get either one sanded yet but firewood was 30@25 on my scales.
Certainly not the best shooting bow I’ve ever made but not bad for firewood.
I didn’t put kindling on my scales yet.
One thing this experiment showed is that kindling is to narrow for her width. She’s not very fast.
I’m pretty sure I could get the same draw length and weight with her shortened up about six inches. Still fun to shoot. Just don’t think she performs as well as she should.
I hope everyone gets a chance to try some of these things out. It would be worth it all to get someone to gain the skill and confidence that can be gained by playing with scrap wood.
Thanks for watching everyone.
I might have another lesson or two but class is probably going to take a little break for now.
Bjrogg
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Those look great, BJ. It's always fortifying to see something worthless made into something beautiful. Reminds me that there's hope for all of us. :)
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Those look great, BJ. It's always fortifying to see something worthless made into something beautiful. Reminds me that there's hope for all of us. :)
Thanks WB.
Yes maybe we just need to dig a little deeper to find it.
Bjrogg
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Been busy farming lately but I did manage to finish my firewood and get a few pictures.
Not to bad of a shooter for a piece of firewood
Bjrogg
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I put a water buffalo horn arrow shelf extension on too.
Bjrogg
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Profiles
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Sorry I didn’t have anyone to get a nice full draw outside picture
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I straighten out the second little billet and prep it for splicing
Nice work ! I am starting the similar project - black locust billets joined to form the the bow...
But I wonder If W splice is really necessary ? In asiatic bows the V splice is used and shows that it is strong enough.
And there is a lot easier to make really nice fit V splice than W splice I guess ... and fit it everything :OK
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I straighten out the second little billet and prep it for splicing
Nice work ! I am starting the similar project - black locust billets joined to form the the bow...
But I wonder If W splice is really necessary ? In asiatic bows the V splice is used and shows that it is strong enough.
And there is a lot easier to make really nice fit V splice than W splice I guess ... and fit it everything :OK
gorazd I honestly don’t have a lot of experience with splicing. I’ve only done a handful.
I think just a v would work fine. I think the idea of the w is more glue line but a nice fitting v is still a good bit of glue line.
I think longer joint is easier to fit than a shorter one too.
Good luck with your black locust
Bjrogg
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They look great to me Brian. I’ve been busy building a shed for my wife and haven’t had time to work on anything else lately but, I’m getting close with having it finished. Hopefully I’ll get back to doing something fun soon. Love this thread. Definitely got me to thinking about some of the staves I had given up on. Thanks for sharing it.
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I haven’t been on site much lately, have lots going on. Sat down for a few and just read through your whole post Brian. It’s great of you to take the time to share your experiments with us. I have definitely learned a lot, gained a lot of confidence in working wood I would have trashed before. Your lesssons should really help any new bowyers get over any fear they may have in getting started.
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Nice job.
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that's some lovely firewood! very well done sir, this thread shows you can make fine bows with a lot less wood then what you'd think.
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That's some beautiful work.
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Those are two beauties BJ. Thanks for posting them.
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They look great to me Brian. I’ve been busy building a shed for my wife and haven’t had time to work on anything else lately but, I’m getting close with having it finished. Hopefully I’ll get back to doing something fun soon. Love this thread. Definitely got me to thinking about some of the staves I had given up on. Thanks for sharing it.
Thanks everyone who has read this thread. Especially those that take a chance on a piece of scrap. Or find something in a piece of wood that you weren’t seeing before. The ones that play with it.
Sometimes for me. The very hardest part is just looking at a stave that still needs the bark and sapwood removed and just plain getting started. It always looks like so much work. Totally overwhelming. Until you clean up that back and chase a ring. Make a perfect belly split and get it closer to bow dimensions.
It gets so much easier when you can see the bow.
Bjrogg
PS muskyman great idea building a shed for your wife. That way she won’t be putting stuff in yours. And if you don’t have one. Well it’s a pretty convincing argument that you need one to
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for me is pretty much the opposite, it's easy to do the rough work at the start but as soon sa I have to trace the bow on the stave it becomes incredibly hard, the fear of failure almost paralyzes me :-[
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Actually Brian, I built one 2 years ago for (us) and I kinda took it over with my bow staves and other bow making/ flint knapping/ knife making///stuff. She kind of mentioned it last winter and I promised her I’d build her one. And now I’m finishing up a 12 x 18 shed for her. Then it’s back to finishing up a few bows and starting some new ones :BB