Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on December 25, 2023, 09:18:53 pm
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Working on a hickory shorty with what I hope will be static recurves. I haven't started bending it yet, but I got the curves steamed in. I'm a little worried about whether they'll be stiff enough. I was thinking about boiling some elk antler slices and gluing them on the inside of the curves to stiffen them a bit. If nothing else, it would look cool, but of course I'm more concerned with performance and not having the curves pull out or break.
How to you know if your curves are stiff enough? Any guidelines? Thoughts on antler overlays for stiffening?
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Couple of thing's. I typically wont heat bend until I get it bending at floor tiller. Then I will check it on the long string. If the tips aren’t bending, then they should remain stiff as I shed wood from the working limb. Since you already heat bent the tips, just tiller it out on the floor. If the limbs are not bending yet, the tips I would bet, will remain stiff. Just a guess without seeing it, but I would take the over on this.
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Couple of thing's. I typically wont heat bend until I get it bending at floor tiller. Then I will check it on the long string. If the tips aren’t bending, then they should remain stiff as I shed wood from the working limb. Since you already heat bent the tips, just tiller it out on the floor. If the limbs are not bending yet, the tips I would bet, will remain stiff. Just a guess without seeing it, but I would take the over on this.
+1 for me. This is how I do it as well. Sometimes I’ll get it to 20” draw with stiff flat tips then steam them in and let cool and acclimate really well for a couple days. After that I’ll set them in with same dry heat. As far horn or antler on the back it does work too. Just another step that you may not even need to do. I would think it wouldn’t take much with a glue line to stiffen up the static. You’d be surprised how little thickness is needed to stiffen up a recurve. Another option could be a wood laminate instead of horn on the belly portion of the recurve. I’ve had success with this when I wanted to maintain the back the way it is. Best of luck on it. Post some pics would help give better idea too.
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OK, thanks, guys. Looks like I got excited and did things in the wrong order. I'm hoping to get into the shop today and get some work done, so I'll see if I can get some pictures.
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OK, here's what I have so far. Going to back it with dogbane fiber, since it's so short and I didn't really chase a ring. Hoping for around 50-55# @ 27" when finished. Do you think the curves will be stiff enough? They're .6" tall and .5" wide.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgxvJpG9V3t-gJZlTjik3t_h8wyH8byQiuRH1FD2CEcQp9fQ-bI7JbKQzR7T8Fn7ET0D2481xM2Pl_Ciy_oguyXGgwxsuIfe4WCWgS_3e70nur0Ed2U0zk1HW9-rdl8pb9RHptrbbko-4-UqIVSmBDTIxvq9-84cLzaKglO5zsKAY1PydH4QHmR1Bb47bQ/s4032/IMG_0796.HEIC)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgeBpkxgu9skQtssRy4sBfDGXOzrCsiTx2yStyciECFFdiSY_zQZvrhaTUKJdIxMJ1Pr2Gt7FMZuUkTZqHFVOOgtQAjimMwuCXVYBR89HeK9Th68xF43UVIXGgR4L7Ff-Z2c85FigHzrQBbC9qYAbxrBW-PrPzO5dnJoa9I9ab18jN-EnGlS4toCSwEtaE/s4032/IMG_0795.HEIC)
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgjhxDp-sinKPwYnFTzWxvcnSAiym4daCwFEV4sfbDC3FTb2QSgfJebJXKEEnAvMSrveuxs0UFJKtXwdbAJqxCbGtn8nYx3cnHlM_tuGmnuVP5SEMcHw79rXD_k9BIUXWhOT6V72Ph0p8n2zXTMd0M2mWSPVqRGBrfBIGP3B7N3UVdXrbTdJu_pQZXvuEs/s4032/IMG_0794.HEIC)
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They look plenty thick to me. Did you dry heat set them in. Also do you still have some limb thinning to do yet. If so you could narrow up the transition at those statics a little keeping the thickness at the mini levers.
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They look plenty thick to me. Did you dry heat set them in. Also do you still have some limb thinning to do yet. If so you could narrow up the transition at those statics a little keeping the thickness at the mini levers.
How does setting in with dry heat work? I've never done that, and I'm wondering if that's why my recurves always pull out. I was planning on heat treating the belly once I'm a little further along. Is it the same idea?
I am planning on leaving the limbs wide, since they're so short. Just evening them up a bit. Should I narrow up the tapers into the levers to make the transition smoother?
Thanks for the help!
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Heat tempering the belly increases the compression strength.
As far as your tips go, it takes very little wood at the tips to make them static. Most of the leverage (stress) felt by the limb, takes place near the fade, or more precisely, where the working limb begins to bend. As you move out toward the tip, less leverage is applied and so less wood is needed. Once at the tips, little leverage felt, so little wood is needed to keep it stiff. Straighten up the angles and have them flow into the tips. It’s a good practice and I think it just looks better.
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Heat tempering the belly increases the compression strength.
As far as your tips go, it takes very little wood at the tips to make them static. Most of the leverage (stress) felt by the limb, takes place near the fade, or more precisely, where the working limb begins to bend. As you move out toward the tip, less leverage is applied and so less wood is needed. Once at the tips, little leverage felt, so little wood is needed to keep it stiff. Straighten up the angles and have them flow into the tips. It’s a good practice and I think it just looks better.
You beat me to it… what he said. 😎
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OK. So when I heat treat the belly, I should just go all the way out to the tips to set the curves?
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Yes. Good and deep on the tips.
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OK, will do. Thanks for the help, guys. I'll post some more pics once I have something interesting to show.
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So, this happened. I was heating on the belly side, but somehow the heat got concentrated between the bow and the mold and severely scorched the back side.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-_-8T3gJYCZT8xhfBntclDTZAH23kAg_qMEWvGUNhpTmxIM8zrlfHW5lcQG3zfoRr-GefxtLqug_wOuQM156GbIIsYCD_X90bTUrlj4oaIJGLMSH94a6lTXheqTD38TsR3nSNha6EYY703DsC2YysH163em0Xxfyye1zKTH7yPFOpH4trplv82KjBfMg/s320/scorch.jpg)
Bob, you did say to go good and deep on the tips, but I'm guessing this isn't exactly what you meant. :o I'm planning on backing this bow with dogbane fiber, so I figure I'll scrape off as much of the charcoal as I can, then put a double or triple layer of backing fiber on the inside of this curve. Thoughts?
At least the taper to the levers looks better to me. It will be a real pretty bow right up until the curve breaks off...
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Yikes! I have had them get little licks of color on the back, but never anything even close to this. So, I can’t tell you how to fix it on this one, but I can tell you how to minimize it on the next one. I take my caul and bend the tips. Once they are flush with caul, I heat treat the belly. I hold the heat gun at a pretty open angle pointing toward the tip, as opposed to pointing straight down. I will get a little color on the back in spots, but nothing to worry about.
I burned a hackberry bow this bad a decade ago, heating over hot coals. Just not paying close attn as the daylight was fading. I cut the tips off and made a 62 inch bow instead of 72. 62 inches was long enough to work. Hope you can salvage this one. I will also add that backing one is a lot of work. I would much rather tiller out a good shooter, and then back it, as opposed to putting in all the work on one that may not make a bow. That’s me, and this is your project, so just food for thought.
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That’s too bad WB. I agree with what Bob said. Another possibility is backing with boo strip and adding a power lam at this location and see how it work if you are set on keeping the same length. Just grind flat the back and prep for boo backing if you got one wide enough. Just a thought. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
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Bleah. Not what I wanted to hear, but thanks for the advice. This bow is already only 54", so I can't really cut the tips off and make it into an even shorter bow. I already have several kids' bows in the pipeline. So if I don't go through with this one, I'll have to just cut it up for firewood and start all over. Bleah. I sure wish I'd make these mistakes at the beginning stages instead of 2/3 of the way done.
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Well, I think I'll put this one away and start anew. Might get it back out at some point and see if I can salvage it, but don't feel inclined to put any more work into a losing proposition. Thanks for the help. Onward.
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Get you a good stave of some sort. Build a self bow. Build it right and you won’t need to back it, unless you just want to. I have been where you are. Bummer, but if you learned something, then parlay that knowledge into the next one.
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Yeah, I've got a couple of good self bows I'm happy with, so the pressure's off. ;D And I still have a couple good hickory staves. I really want to make a short bow that I can use to hunt antelope from a ground blind. My long bows aren't so great for that. I also really want to try the local bow woods, juniper and chokecherry. Both of those definitely need to be backed, so I thought I'd try out the design on hickory first, since it's pretty hard to screw up.
And yet still, I managed. It's one of my many super powers.
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Choke Cherry you won’t have to back. With a good piece. I have a friend working on a short one now.
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Interesting! Everything I've read says that they have an annoying tendency to explode randomly, sometimes after shooting them for several years. So I'd probably play it safe and at least put rawhide on it. My face ain't much, but it's the only one I've got.
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The thing I like about a chokecherry bow is that stuff is tough. You can hardly break it if you try. I have used it to make walking sticks and hatchet handles. So a good bow made of chokecherry would probably last a long time, even in bang-it-up hunting conditions.
I've worked with juniper before, but I made some mistakes and never got a shooter with it. It is a joy to work with, almost like carving chalk. And wow, does it make the shop smell wonderful.
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I think with a few exception's, you can make a decent self bow with so many different woods. Black Cherry being an exception for me, but others have succeeded with the nasty stuff. Just make it wider and or longer in the right proportions. A decade ago I laughed at the idea using Hackberry. After learning to heat temper, Hackberry is a perfectly good option.
Texas Persimmon. Yet to get a shooter from it after several attempts, but it is short small diameter and twisted up around here. I will keep after getting one from it.
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Some of our natives have made both bows, and arrows from wild choke cherry. I also tried it some years back. You really need to sinew back it for safety in my opinion. One winter I built 6 self bows from this wood not knowing much about it as a self bow wood. . All went well until a couple of hundred shots in. One blew up at full draw, and I mean blew up. I was lucky not to loss an eye. Broke my glasses in 2 pieces, and it gave me a bad shiner. The wood I was using had hidden flaws. The branches though do make good arrows. I heat treated them, and fluted them. The bows were 62 inches long. One ,and 5/8 at the fades to 5/8 at the tips, and 40 to 45 lbs. at 25 inch draw. I still have a couple left, but won't shoot them until I sinew back them. Just my experience, and others may vary.
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Some of our natives have made both bows, and arrows from wild choke cherry. I also tried it some years back. You really need to sinew back it for safety in my opinion. One winter I built 6 self bows from this wood not knowing much about it as a self bow wood. . All went well until a couple of hundred shots in. One blew up at full draw, and I mean blew up. I was lucky not to loss an eye. Broke my glasses in 2 pieces, and it gave me a bad shiner. The wood I was using had hidden flaws. The branches though do make good arrows. I heat treated them, and fluted them. The bows were 62 inches long. One ,and 5/8 at the fades to 5/8 at the tips, and 40 to 45 lbs. at 25 inch draw. I still have a couple left, but won't shoot them until I sinew back them. Just my experience, and others may vary.
Thanks for your input, Bass. I've heard the same basic story from enough people that I don't think I'd make a chokecherry self bow. I've heard they're really snappy shooters, though, while they last. I have some good antelope rawhide, lots of dogbane fiber, and quite a bit of sinew for backing. I prefer to save the sinew for juniper bows, so I'm leaning toward a couple layers of dogbane on the chokecherry, just for safety.
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In other news, I just about have the new recurve roughed out. We'll see what creative and interesting ways I can come up with to screw this one up. ;D
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I would rather boil or steam to make recurve tips. I sometime even splice in the recurve tips, mainly for short Osage staves. Good luck with the new one.
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I would rather boil or steam to make recurve tips. I sometime even splice in the recurve tips, mainly for short Osage staves. Good luck with the new one.
I did boil and steam, I was just using dry heat after to really set the curves in. I'm still puzzled about what happened exactly, blowing heat on the belly, but it was the back that got charred. Some warp in the time-space continuum, I guess...
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Ya it’s strange how it happens. I’ve had this happen to me also. I find the heat gun with blowing hot air likes to wrap around with the heat. Was it clamped down to anything when you used the heat gun on the levers? If so that heat could also be bounced back onto the back over time and accumulate heat too getting hotter and hotter. This is what I figure happened to me trying to do the same last year on a build. I’ve started lining my forms with something nonflammable to prevent heat wrapping effect. For a visual to explain what I believe is going on… if you e ever done and soldering of copper piping and put the flame of your torch onto the pipe and can see the flame wrap around the pipe as if it almost hugs the pipe and reconnects on the other side of the pipe. I’m sure there is a technical name for this for those scientific guys out there.
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I know it’s not funny but you sure are making me laugh with you comments WB 😊 . Pappy
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Ya it’s strange how it happens. I’ve had this happen to me also. I find the heat gun with blowing hot air likes to wrap around with the heat. Was it clamped down to anything when you used the heat gun on the levers? If so that heat could also be bounced back onto the back over time and accumulate heat too getting hotter and hotter. This is what I figure happened to me trying to do the same last year on a build. I’ve started lining my forms with something nonflammable to prevent heat wrapping effect. For a visual to explain what I believe is going on… if you e ever done and soldering of copper piping and put the flame of your torch onto the pipe and can see the flame wrap around the pipe as if it almost hugs the pipe and reconnects on the other side of the pipe. I’m sure there is a technical name for this for those scientific guys out there.
Yeah, I think that's exactly what happened. The heat got sort of concentrated between the form and the back, instead of dispersing into the air like it does on the belly. That's the only way I can think of that the back could have gotten hotter than the belly, which was actually receiving the direct heat.
I know it’s not funny but you sure are making me laugh with you comments WB 😊 . Pappy
No worries, Pappy. In my better moments I find my knack for creative ineptitude rather funny too. ;D