Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => At the Forge => Topic started by: Handforged on March 29, 2020, 10:40:41 am
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I make quite a few tools. I have the ability to make anything from steel. Is there anything that you guys would like to see in photos in a build along? I always try to make time for myself between custom orders and the forge is hot nearly every day so give me some ideas of what you'd like to see and I will try to accommodate it for you guys that have some tools. Or maybe a "every man has these tools" build, I can do that as well. I started out like everyone else with VERY simple tools and was still able to build good quality tools and knives. It's not about what you have, it's what you do with it.
What I would like is if we do this for a few of you to follow along and build along with me! Post some pictures as you're working. We can do a knife of any style, any tool imaginable but remember, this needs to be something accomplishable without advanced tools. So what say you?
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Maybe start us out with the "clamshell" blade or a single bevel hatchet!
Hawkdancer
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a hatchet might be a little too much for most without a forge to jump on but I'm game. I'm hoping some folks will chime in here with some ideas.
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dunno if you can do this but something i was wanting to do with my rinky dink ol forge is something out of rebar. like a rebar broadheads, or those little heart keychain thinks that people recommend you start with.
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San Mai 2lb felling axe
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San Mai 2lb felling axe
I just made one, although I think mine is closer to 3 pounds.... HA!
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dunno if you can do this but something i was wanting to do with my rinky dink ol forge is something out of rebar. like a rebar broadheads, or those little heart keychain thinks that people recommend you start with.
I'd rather do something useful. Rebar broadheads are a no go for me, first off I don't have any rebar...HA! I don't use it.
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simple knife then. just something fun thats easy and useful. i just want an excuse to get my forge out!
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simple knife then. just something fun thats easy and useful. i just want an excuse to get my forge out!
What about a trade style knife from round bar stock? We can do a hidden tang on it so that you guys can use about anything for handle. Someone mentioned to me a 1700's style knife, which would be about right for this style... You guys can source small diameter coil spring steel I am guessing fairly easily? 3/8- 1/2" diameter is perfect.
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dunno if you can do this but something i was wanting to do with my rinky dink ol forge is something out of rebar. like a rebar broadheads, or those little heart keychain thinks that people recommend you start with.
I'd rather do something useful. Rebar broadheads are a no go for me, first off I don't have any rebar...HA! I don't use it.
Well make another, slightly smaller one and photograph it lol 😂 mine got stolen outta my truck so I need a new one ;D
Moving shops so everything is packed up, even the good old forge and all my trusty bandsaw.
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Well make another, slightly smaller one and photograph it lol 😂 mine got stolen outta my truck so I need a new one ;D
Moving shops so everything is packed up, even the good old forge and all my trusty bandsaw.
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Check your PM's..
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Well make another, slightly smaller one and photograph it lol 😂 mine got stolen outta my truck so I need a new one ;D
Moving shops so everything is packed up, even the good old forge and all my trusty bandsaw.
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Check your PM's..
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I got ya.
A proper sized Hog splitter would be cool to see, maybe made out of a canister of ball bearings..... actually damn, that’s like 7lbs of bearing hahaha not sure anyone carries that many. Ummm....... or maybe like some sort of tool. I think knives we’ve all seen and done but if you do make one as a build along/follow along. Make it from something weird like coat hangers and razor blades ya know? Haha Thatd be cool.
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well I was going to try to make something that a few here that have small forges or even no forge could make as we go. I can go full retard if that's what you guys want to do....HA! I have a 52100/ explosion pattern Damascus jelly roll already started.
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That would be cool, the explosion Damascus would look cool as a fighter of some sorts.
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like this?
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Nah like an old school fighting knife.
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Nah like an old school fighting knife.
I was referring to the Damascus pattern
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Nah like an old school fighting knife.
I was referring to the Damascus pattern
Oooooooh yeah looks good man.
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I don't have a specific request, but I have seen lots of knife forging videos and would much prefer to see some tools being made.
Mark
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I’ll tell you a tool I’d like to see. A handle broach. I’ve made a couple, but I’m not thrilled with either. I’d love to see how others approach the same sort of thing.
My favorite element to Gene Chapman’s booklets has always been his homemade tooling. When one person finds a way to make a task a little easier, it can spark new ideas and open up avenues for making things that were not feasible without the tool. So really, any shop-built tooling is interesting to me.
Patrick
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I would have been happy with the 1700's knife but I think you are close to finishing it. ::)
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I would have been happy with the 1700's knife but I think you are close to finishing it. ::)
HA! yeah and I didn't take any pictures of the forge work. I was too busy a-doing it.
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I’ll tell you a tool I’d like to see. A handle broach. I’ve made a couple, but I’m not thrilled with either. I’d love to see how others approach the same sort of thing.
My favorite element to Gene Chapman’s booklets has always been his homemade tooling. When one person finds a way to make a task a little easier, it can spark new ideas and open up avenues for making things that were not feasible without the tool. So really, any shop-built tooling is interesting to me.
Patrick
Well I was trying to make it something others could follow along and do. The issue with forging broaches is that most blacksmiths ( me included ) use a series of broaches. Each a larger, more shapely piece than the first. I cheat if I am looking to punch eyes, I usually drill a 1/2" hole in the piece to start with. Then punch it round, then angular or square depending on the need.
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My bad! I’m so knife-centric I was unclear. In this case, I’m talking about a tool to remove wood from a handle to make a slot for a tang. A different one may be needed for each tang thickness, but you are talking about the more common use of the word. Except I forge smaller items (if I can claim a specialty, it is smallish wood carving blades, though puukkos are a strong interest, as well), so I was just thinking of trying to make a task I find annoying just a bit easier. You work larger than I do, as well. Your tooling will reflect that, so this was probably a poor suggestion.
In that case, something that has interested me since I first started even thinking about smithing is the concept of portable tooling. Whether something like the Madtermyr find or more recent, such as Wayne Goddard outlines in one of his books. If you were to set up a five gallon bucket with all the tools you would use to be the modern version of a journeyman (carrying your tools with you, setting up wherever you can put the anvil, etc), what would your setup look like? What assumptions would you make about any potential work sites?
Of course, this may be of interest to nobody but me, so take it only as a thought.
Patrick
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My bad! I’m so knife-centric I was unclear. In this case, I’m talking about a tool to remove wood from a handle to make a slot for a tang. A different one may be needed for each tang thickness, but you are talking about the more common use of the word. Except I forge smaller items (if I can claim a specialty, it is smallish wood carving blades, though puukkos are a strong interest, as well), so I was just thinking of trying to make a task I find annoying just a bit easier. You work larger than I do, as well. Your tooling will reflect that, so this was probably a poor suggestion.
In that case, something that has interested me since I first started even thinking about smithing is the concept of portable tooling. Whether something like the Madtermyr find or more recent, such as Wayne Goddard outlines in one of his books. If you were to set up a five gallon bucket with all the tools you would use to be the modern version of a journeyman (carrying your tools with you, setting up wherever you can put the anvil, etc), what would your setup look like? What assumptions would you make about any potential work sites?
Of course, this may be of interest to nobody but me, so take it only as a thought.
Patrick
That's actually interesting as I teach classes and seminars every season. I don't bring an anvil or forge, as they are expected to provide one. I have a VERY old farriers box that I use. It's about 36"x12"x 10" with a heavy carry handle, open topped. Honestly all I ever carry is a few hammers that I made for specific tasks, a couple of specialized hardy tools for various things and my leather apron. This is all depending on what I am doing and teaching but it varies very little. I learned the methods of blacksmiths 100 years ago. I can work most everything with 5-6 tools and do! What I also find amusing is traveling to a forge to do these classes to find a very well appointed forge with all sorts of tools that the owner has NO IDEA how to use. This last season I had a class in Az, the owner of the forge we were working in had every tool imaginable. All were brand new and he had no CLUE what most were even for. I went through and discussed them as he labeled some of them. Then again I visited an architectural blacksmith friend that has about 10 tools in his forge TOTAL... from those he does some amazing architectural steel. He like me, learned to work with what he had available and made the tools he needed to do a specific job. My typical kit is Flat, box and wolf jaw tongs. Larger ball peen, angle peen and cross peen hammers plus a large sharp peen /flatter. Two or three large chisels and a stepped punch. On a side note: students use my tools quite often when I teach so I came up with a little method to control how they used the tools. Hammers that are meant to be swung to move steel have long handles on them. If they require less force they have a shorter handle and finally my angle peen and flatter have about a 12" handle on them. It's hard to build any force with them unless you swing it over your head or something. This teaches them to use the right tool for the right job. Thus decreasing the amount of force needed to do it correctly.
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My bad! I’m so knife-centric I was unclear. In this case, I’m talking about a tool to remove wood from a handle to make a slot for a tang. A different one may be needed for each tang thickness, but you are talking about the more common use of the word. Except I forge smaller items (if I can claim a specialty, it is smallish wood carving blades, though puukkos are a strong interest, as well), so I was just thinking of trying to make a task I find annoying just a bit easier.
Patrick
When I do Puuko or hidden tangs like you're mentioning, the broaches I use are all either cut down saw blades, leaving teeth only on the end or a reshaped chainsaw file. These were just forged flat, given a few teeth, sharpened and heat treated. For the smaller knives in most cases I drill a hole to start and do a burn in handle (depending on the wood or handle material) Maple and other burls burn in VERY well and quickly too. It just takes some planning. I do them when I am thermocycling the blade. I get my handle material blocked out with a starter hole drilled then burn it in while I am moving from forge to vermiculite. I do find using the handle broaches to be tedious and time consuming for the end result. Burning in takes a quarter of the time and the fit is perfect every time. Just my 0.02 cents
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just watched Caesars Bark Canoe on nfb.ca
Caesar makes large use of a curved carving knife
would it be hard to make one? I have almost 0 smithing experience but sure would love to follow your build along
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just watched Caesars Bark Canoe on nfb.ca
Caesar makes large use of a curved carving knife
would it be hard to make one? I have almost 0 smithing experience but sure would love to follow your build along
That is a pretty standard design called a "crooked knife", I have made a good many of them but haven't had call for one lately. There was a resurgence in primitive skills a few years ago and they were all the rage. Everyone had to have one, even though very few knew how to actually use it. There are varying curves and lengths and the one he is using looks to be on the larger side for sure. They are fairly easy to make and we could even do one from a used File if you guys wanted to try to make one at home. You wouldn't need more than a propane torch, one fire brick and a small pan of mineral oil to forge it. Might be fun!
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That sounds like a good idea. I like making bowls, platters and spoons and I need to make some.
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Sounds good to me,
Here's a list of materials needed for this one. If you want to play along and make one, speak up here so I can keep up
small bastard file or spring steel piece approx. 1/2"x 6"x 1/4"
handle material: Wood block of about any kind, horn or antler
brass pin stock or larger nails with heads
sinew or hemp cord
File, grinder or belt sander
heat source: This can be as small as a propane torch and one fire brick hollowed out to make a one brick forge. Oxy/Acet torch, coal or wood fire will even suffice.
Mineral, canola or even used motor oil to quench.
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I’m looking forward to seeing your crooked knife! I make a couple versions because I carve wooden spoons. It became a fun push-pull thing for a few years. My spoons would not be quite what I wanted, so I’d change the knives, get past the new learning curve of new tools, decide I needed something different, and the cycle continues. My results are odd to some carvers, but my spoons work.
If I were to pick one knife I want to see from another maker (well, really, I want to see them all, but you know what I mean) I’d want to see either a crooked knife/hook knife or else a paring knife. Both are easy to do at a basic level, but the details show whether the maker knows how to use the knife.
Eager anticipation over here!
Patrick
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I’m looking forward to seeing your crooked knife! I make a couple versions because I carve wooden spoons. It became a fun push-pull thing for a few years. My spoons would not be quite what I wanted, so I’d change the knives, get past the new learning curve of new tools, decide I needed something different, and the cycle continues. My results are odd to some carvers, but my spoons work.
If I were to pick one knife I want to see from another maker (well, really, I want to see them all, but you know what I mean) I’d want to see either a crooked knife/hook knife or else a paring knife. Both are easy to do at a basic level, but the details show whether the maker knows how to use the knife.
Eager anticipation over here!
Patrick
Well, I had planned to do something really simple but after that comment I might have to kick it up a notch. HA! Even better I may make a couple, one very traditional, simple and one more in line with what I would do for a customer...
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The real details I'm talking about have a lot more to do with edge geometry and bevel orientation than with fit and finish. When you see a guy like Tom Lafortune carving a totem pole, his knives look fairly primitive. But the edges and the curves at the tip tell the story of decades of learning how to use these tools right. I'd love to spend a couple of hours playing with his tools and making notes. I wouldn't learn a thing about fit and finish, but I would learn the important lessons of how to make a tool that a master carver is happy using.
From the pictures you've posted, your skills and experience are more developed than mine. I wasn't trying to challenge you, only expressing excitement that you are going to show your take on a tool that I have worked to refine and improve for myself. The part that matters to me is the part that does the work, not the part that sells to the folks who don't actually know how to evaluate a tool (that's not an insult - someone who is very good with a butcher knife can evaluate the butcher knife very well, but likely cannot evaluate a wood carving tool - they are specialized in function).
-Patrick
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The real details I'm talking about have a lot more to do with edge geometry and bevel orientation than with fit and finish. When you see a guy like Tom Lafortune carving a totem pole, his knives look fairly primitive. But the edges and the curves at the tip tell the story of decades of learning how to use these tools right. I'd love to spend a couple of hours playing with his tools and making notes. I wouldn't learn a thing about fit and finish, but I would learn the important lessons of how to make a tool that a master carver is happy using.
From the pictures you've posted, your skills and experience are more developed than mine. I wasn't trying to challenge you, only expressing excitement that you are going to show your take on a tool that I have worked to refine and improve for myself. The part that matters to me is the part that does the work, not the part that sells to the folks who don't actually know how to evaluate a tool (that's not an insult - someone who is very good with a butcher knife can evaluate the butcher knife very well, but likely cannot evaluate a wood carving tool - they are specialized in function).
-Patrick
I was just poking at you a little. I do a good many primitives as well as highly evolved types of cutting tools. To me, no matter that I am doing, the steps involved in producing the tool are always the same. For the most part the only difference is the level of finish. I think I mentioned in another thread that sometimes I have to go back after the fact and put the tool marks and look back into it.
I think for this I'll do one that is a hemp wrapped antler handle and the other a more refined carved handle version. I have used cooked knives for years, just not lately. I'll post some pictures of my personal knife in there somewhere for reference. It has a permanent place in my woods bag.
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I hate to derail the conversation, but here are the spoon carving tools I use most nowadays, as well as a few of the spoons I use when I eat.
The small hook and the small sloyd knife were forged from 1/4" (aprox) garage door spring. The kind in most home garages. The others came from the 3/8" spring material from the large 7" diameter springs that are on the big doors.
-Patrick
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I tend to leave a forged surface where it won't interfere with function. I love the brut de forge look.
I'd love to see your personal hook knife! Whenever I get together with other spoon carvers (which happens very seldom, I want to look at their spoons, then I want to look at their knives. There is so much to learn from how people use the tool, but first you have to see the tool they are using. (If the spoons are bad spoons, I don't really have anything to learn, but if they are nice spoons, I want to see what the tools were and then we can talk technique.)
I'm really looking forward to it! Thank you.
-Patrick
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I wish I was a better carver. I had professional native woodcarver and basket weaver (I forget which tribe) contact me years ago about making Mocataugen for him. He sent me a very crude knife that he had made as an example. I think I forged 4 for him that were different concave shapes. One was all but straight with a slight bend to the blade for finishing larger bowls and working weaving slats. He teaches classes and those students ordered a good many of those tools for a few seasons and then like things do, it just sort of dwindled out. As I mentioned before there was a pull for them a few years ago but that resurgence seems to have died out. At least for me it has. That is the only reference I have for them.
I tried to make a Kuksa once upon a time and gave up on it after about a week. I believe it's still in the shop somewhere. A couple weeks later I got another nice burl and made myself one with the power tools and liked that MUCH BETTER! HA! I finished it up with the Mocataugen but the vast majority of it was shaped via power tool. So my reference in their use is fairly low unfortunately.
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Kuksas (fun trivia: old woodcraft books generally called them "noggins") are a lot of work to carve. I have started several and never finished one. I make spoons. They just suit me. I will sit and carve a spoon while my youngest plays at the park. In between classes (back to school in my 40s), I would sometimes just bring my carving bucket and make a spoon while I waited for the next class to begin. There's nothing else I can think of where I can have several razor sharp blades out in the open and have moms approach me to ask questions, even bringing kids over to see what I'm doing. Anything else I could do with knives, other than carving, is likely to get me a visit from a polite gentleman with a badge.
And I think the way to get to be a good carver is by having an obsessive need to carve. Like being a good smith starts with having a need within you to forge metal. You only get good at anything by doing and you only do if you have it in you to really want or need to do.
-Patrick
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Ok does everyone have their stuff together for a crooked knife build? I may start on it this afternoon and post some pictures. I'll start another thread to get it going. If this thread allowed it I had thought about raffling them off and donating the money to the website but I don't think we can do that here. As it is I'll likely give them away or trade them to someone who would like them. So you guys get your materials together and lets get started!