Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: DC on February 05, 2018, 02:20:59 pm
-
Every time I try and make arrows out of Western Hemlock I break about half of them when I'm bare shafting them. I just broke one that was 3/8", 28" long, spined at 60#, barrelled and I was shooting it with a 40# bow. I thought I would start with a heavy spine since I was breaking so many. I would guess it hit about 3" nock right and broke flush to the target face. I was about 15' from the target. The log I made them from was green when I got it. It's been drying for about 1 -1 1/2 years in 2" x 3/8" blanks. This stuff has got to be stronger than Cedar so what do you think is going on?
-
If an arrow hits the boss travelling at an angle, the front end can go in straight 'cos that's the direction of travel. the back end then caries on moving on a line that is say 3 inches to one side and snaps off where the shaft is held rigid in the boss.
I know people have explained why they bare shaft test, and I do understand... but I still think it's a bit daft.
I jokingly say it's like trying to tune the handling of your car by driving it without tyres >:D
Del
-
How do people manage to bare shaft PO Cedar. I'm used to bamboo and have had no problem with it.
-
Bareshaft test regularly and broke maybe 2% of them. Cane, poc, poplar, sitka spruce, shoots, doug fir, etc..
I know roughly what shaft stiffness is going to work and begin testing with shafts whose static spine are somewhat less and which are longish.
-
What do you shoot in to?
-
Styrafoam-like blocks.
-
A softer target might work better. I use a burlap bag stuffed with mostly thin sheet foam, but also some plastic grocery bags, more burlap, etc. The kind of foam you pack dishes with works well.
-
Or hang up a thick rug or carpet on a line and shoot at that. It will thump the material hard, the material will give way, and the arrowshaft will fall to the ground.
-
why bareshaft woodies...makes no sense...no two will be identical.... gets in ballpark but really not necessary IMO ... gut
-
i broke many, many shafts bareshafting,
frustrating and expensive!
the key to bareshafting is to check the charts- and get as close as you can with the spines, then when you start bareshafting- start close to the target.
i know this is counter-intuitive!
my thoughts were always if i got further from the target- there was less "power" in the shaft- the impact would be less- and the chance of breakage is reduced.
the fact is, the further you get from the target, the more exaggerated the error becomes, the more askance the arrow hits the target- and the higher the chance of breakage.
here is a link to what i think is the best video i have ever seen on bareshafting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGOPiriLbcM
what bow are you shooting, i can put up some charts for you.
as for targets- i use a styrofoam block- i think a more flexible rubber type block would be better. to absorb some of the impact.
but i am wary of stuffed bag targets- as the density can vary in the bag- and the lay of the stuffing- can give a false reading.
but hey, if its working, then dont change it.
only problem with the styrofoam is target burn, so i rub a little hard soap on the first half of the shaft.
cheers.
-
Thanks Wayne. Here is the bow I was using although I've had it happen with others. It's the 3rd post down after you click the link.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,62436.30.html
-
western hemlock is great shafting material. i dont think thats the issue.
especially as it was not kiln dried as well.
its good old growth is it?
hemlock on the ground will rot the quickest of all the woods.
its kind of a pioneer tree- its usually the first one to come in after the alders and other pioneer plants.
but you did say this was a green log.
i have broken premium sitka, Poc, Fir, etc doing the bareshafting wrong :o
-
beautiful bow by the way!
i really like it!!
just my kind of bow.
so no cut in shelf?
what kind of string?
set up to shoot like a self bow- but the recurves and the increased efficiency will want a stiffer spine.
thicker( B50) string will want a softer spine
i would look at the selfbow chart- and maybe err on the stiffer side.
-
here is a glass longbow type chart- not cut to center, but with a cut in shelf- but just use it as a reference.
-
Thanks Wayne, I use eight strand FF. I like the look off no shelf and I shoot just as poorly off my knuckle as off a shelf so I went that way.
I got the Hemlock from a dry land sort (Sayward Timber) just up the road. It was a 4' chunk about 2' in dia that they'd cut off. They gave it to me and even loaded it in the truck with a huge loader. In one section about 1/2" thick there is 30 rings but most of it would be in the 40 RPI range. The log had a tiny bit of twist but the shafts come out good. It just seems brittle but I'm comparing it with bamboo so maybe that's a bit unfair.
-
sounds like a good chunk of wood. nice ring count!
yes, hemlock is a bit more "brittle" than some other woods- but makes an awesome shaft none the less- heavier than spruce- not as heavy as Fir- about the same as chundoo.
tell me what spine you are looking for- i will have all kinds of odds and ends here- if you pay the shipping- i will send you some spruce and might even have some hemlock
-
Here you can see, what really happens:
Too strong arrow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBq0Wr6H7uU
Just right arrow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI-jGc5PWRk
You can see quite a significant difference!
I have there a lot of other videos where you can see what happens when arrow is too stiff or weak or just right.
-
Hi DC, I find that hemlock in my area (Eastern Canada) wants to splinter. Is it different from Western Hemlock? I have not used it for arrows so I am by no means an expert in this.
-
Your issue is as Wayne says, standing too far from the target. I have done the same thing with my spruce shafts and it is very frustrating. Called Wayne so he could talk me off the ledge lol. The nock end will snap around quickly and snap that shaft like nothing. The woods have lots of strength through them pile to nock, but laterally thats when they break. I have found that with all the softwoods I have shot. Clip a hard object, like a live tree, suddenly changes the direction and they lift a splinter, or explode. Spruce, poc, hemlock or fir they all seem to perform well, until that sudden change of direction. And I beat the tar out of my arrows:)
I have found western hemlock to be a solid arrow shaft. Nothing to complain about thats for sure. I need to do some bare shafting soon, maybe we can work together on it. I have a foam block target I can bring.
-
Last one I broke I was 10' from the target.
-
you do need to be reasonably close to the final spine- thats where the charts get you off on the right foot.
was the shaft showing weak or stiff when it broke, go up or down a spine accordingly and try again.
if you are too far off, they will still break at times.
another thing i have done, is take your test arrows to a field- and shoot them- watch how they fly.
use a judo- or shoot at an angle that wont lose the shafts.
that can get you close without breaking shafts.
when you have a shaft that is a bit long and still a wee bit weak- then start bareshafting.
this is only necessary if your bow is an anomaly- and defies the charts. :D
-
If shooting from just 10' and shaft is reasonably close to appropriate spine and you're breaking shafts . . . your release may be culprit.
-
The last one was too stiff. All the ones I've broken before were too limp so I erred on the stiff side. Judging by the chunk left in the target it was nock right by maybe 3".
-
mmmm, shouldnt have broken if it was off center by only 3 "
dunno what to say my friend! :-\
-
I keep thinking that the face material is too strong and has no give. It's that heavy white tarp material that big tote bags are made from. But if that's the case I'm sure someone else would have had the same problem. Maybe Knoll is right but I don't know where to go with that. People say, "Your release is wrong" but I've never seen anything to say what to do to correct it.
-
Lnoll has a good point.....
can you get a video of you shooting.
ask Blayne to help as well.
my release was horrific for years- then i had someone just observe and help me- what a big difference it made- its still my Achilles- but manageable.
even just videoing yourself- and watching it yourself may be a big help- you may see yourself doing something that you are not aware of.
this chart may help some.
but my view on form, is that you rarely find two trad shooters with exactly the same form. more important than form i believe is consistency.
even if its bad- its the same thing over and over- and the brain can adjust the aim for it.
however major errors should be rectified, then just shoot and have fun!
-
but in all honesty- i wouldnt go and get all in a knot- trying to change your form- you can end up chasing your tail.
get Blayne to give you a hand, and lends some extra eyes to it!
-
I think having a partner when tuning is a good idea. Watch flight, release etc. I will find some time to come visit soon:)
-
Sounds good.