Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: RyanY on November 27, 2012, 04:10:46 pm
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Ready for the hate mail!
After seeing the thread on bow wood I thought we could start a nice little debate. In all seriousness I love osage. It's a beautiful, easily workable wood, and can make a great bow. But for a lot of reasons I don't think it's any better than other woods. It's true that osage can make bows of many different designs and take minimal set. But because it's so dense I believe that lots of osage bows are overbuilt, especially in the outer limbs. That density also allows osage to be one of the more sluggish woods out there despite taking less set. I know not everyone out there is in it for the speed but I believe any properly designed bow will be fast and durable for any use and not have to be osage.
This is a quote from Tim Baker on another property of osage.
"Properly made bows of the same length will be about the same thickness regardless of wood species or poundage, the lighter-wood bow merely wider per drawweight pound than the dense-wood bow. If the outer limb of the light-wood bow is made as narrow as can be for lateral stability, the dense-wood bow will have to be narrowed roughly in proportion to density if it's to be as mass efficient."
"So say a .40sg poplar bow is 1/2" wide five inches form its tip, and that if any narrower it would be unstable laterally. Now make a .80sg osage bow, same length, poundage, etc. To be as optimized as the poplar bow it will be 50% narrower. Osage is about 50% stiffer than poplar, but if the outer limbs are narrowed by 50%, something new comes into play: Reduce width and lateral stiffness reduces by a cubic function. If the poplar's outer limb was reduced in width by half it would become one-eighth as stiff. A wet noodle laterally. The osage's 50% extra stiffness would be insignificant; the outer limb would fold. This is why a best-designed osage bow will be slower than a best-designed lighter-wood bow. Can I get a high five for that explanation?"
Thoughts?
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but you'd have to make me believe that for some reason osage is any more durable or strong than any other wood. ???
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Osage is beautiful, works well with hand tools, and smells great when heated (a big plus for me). But I'm with you. There are lots of other woods out there that are just as good or better.
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Well. In my limited experience with it, Osage is not my favorite wood, but it is durable. For example, you don't see many 20 year old oak fence posts turning into bows. Ands its hard as a rock.
Gabe
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Osage is a great bow wood. There's no denying that. But, it's about damn time somebody on this site said it. There seems to be a lot of folks obsessed with the great golden bow wood. I guess thats fine, but there's a lot of other woods out there that make just as nice of bows. Just my 2 cents. ;)
Tattoo Dave
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Gabe, both valid points but we don't shoot arrows with the fenceposts.
Scott, I understand what you're saying but to say osage is better for those reasons I think needs some backup. If other woods chrysal more easily then I think that's more of a design and building issue than it is wood species. Also I'd like to hear more about why other woods fall short in the summer. Although those are things you've experienced, they are certainly not a matter of opinion and must be backed up by reason.
I believe the reason osage has the reputation it does is because, before we understood the principles of design for all woods, we could make bows out of osage without them breaking. If you make a whitewood bow with the same dimensions as osage and ask it to do the same work it will break. That's the point I want to make in this thread. There are many valid reasons why one can have a favorite wood, workability, color, smell. But to say it makes better bows for reasons other than that needs backup. The most important part of this is teaching new generations of bowyers about design and understand what it takes to make a bow of ANY wood.
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Scott, I don't truly think it makes an inferior hunting bow either. Just trying to instigate discussion. ;D
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I read about others saying many other woods make good bows to, I couldnt agree more. However, I want to know one thing about osage, all things being equal, that makes it inferior to any other bow woods. We all can find one thing about all the other common bow woods that it falls short on head to head with osage. Availability cant be one.
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Have never used the yeller stuff but I would like too just so I can form an opinion.
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"So say a .40sg poplar bow is 1/2" wide five inches form its tip, and that if any narrower it would be unstable laterally. Now make a .80sg osage bow, same length, poundage, etc. To be as optimized as the poplar bow it will be 50% narrower. Osage is about 50% stiffer than poplar, but if the outer limbs are narrowed by 50%, something new comes into play: Reduce width and lateral stiffness reduces by a cubic function. If the poplar's outer limb was reduced in width by half it would become one-eighth as stiff. A wet noodle laterally. The osage's 50% extra stiffness would be insignificant; the outer limb would fold. This is why a best-designed osage bow will be slower than a best-designed lighter-wood bow. Can I get a high five for that explanation?"
Thoughts?
Hmm, let me say that I agree that most osage bows are overbuilt in the outer third, but that is not a nock on osage. I also agree that osage limbs are going to have more mass in the outer third even when the design utilizes narrow tips that maximize the compression strength of osage (i.e. limb tips that approach the point of lateral instability). Which is another way of saying what Baker says above.
A possible benefit of more mass in the outer limbs: While I am not arguing for heavy tips, I believe that the energy stored in a properly made osage bow can be most efficiently utilized by a heavy arrow. I have noticed that my osage hunting bow (57#) can cast a 850 grn arrow 5yds shy of 500grn arrow. That is not much difference in cast for a relatively great difference in arrow mass. I know these dynamics are complicated by a number of variables, but I think those slightly heavier tips transfer a greater percentage of stored energy into heavier arrows. A distinct advantage for a hunting weapon.
Thanks for instigating this discussion. :laugh:
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Here is my opinion on Osage. I have made bows from Hickory, Locust, Elm. White Oak, Red Cedar, Mulberry, Yew, HHB and there is nothing wrong with all of these. But for durability and for not quite the best tiller there is nothing that compares to Osage. And yes most Osage bows are over built. But for longevity and thousands of shots Osage is the King. Dean
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Here is my opinion on Osage. I have made bows from Hickory, Locust, Elm. White Oak, Red Cedar, Mulberry, Yew, HHB and there is nothing wrong with all of these. But for durability and for not quite the best tiller there is nothing that compares to Osage. And yes most Osage bows are over built.
in my opinion alot of bows posted are overbuilt of all wood types, including some of mine, Bub
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I really don't need to state the many many reasons and categories that osage excells in and is best or at least still number three in each one. The only opinion that matters to me and based on my experience in my climate is me..I couldn't care less if someone else prefers another wood. Because not everyone has the same wants in a bow wood as me,and some folks make bows just for the sole enjoyment of making bows. If that were my case then osage might not be number one..wait..who am I kidding it still wood be number one because it can heat shape like no other and hold that shape with the less springback and loss after tillering,and can make ANY design out there and do it well,whereas a lot of other woods are limited and more "design specific" and limited to what they can take and do.
Ryan we need to take you out on some serious hunting,and it'll change your mind..lol
LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!!!!!!
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Pearl Drums, I think osage's greatest strength, it's density, is also it's greatest weakness. It will make slower bows than other woods.
CMB, There is no logical explanation for why heavier tips would more efficiently cast a heavier arrow farther. Think of it this way. If you hit a golf ball with a golf club it'll go very far, but hit it with a slow moving train and it wouldn't go nearly as far. The train has more energy but slow is slow no matter what the object being moved is. As for why your results differ logically, there are just too many variable to be sure that your results are an accurate judgement of the phenomenon.
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Dean, you'll have to explain to me why a well designed bow of other woods would have less longevity.
blackhawk, I think the limiting factor with other woods as opposed to osage is length. It is able to make shorter and heavier bows due to its density. Other woods can too but must be a lot wider. Osage can definitely take shape well but I'd like an explanation as to why it can hold that shape better. Marc St. Louis makes many white would bows that retain tons of reflex.
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in my opinion alot of bows posted are overbuilt of all wood types, including some of mine, Bub
Could you elaborate more on the "overbuilt of all wood types"....................are you referring to mostly a weight issue and heavy design..?
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I think its about ease of construction as TTBB says not efficiency. White wood is more readily available to most of us,more easily worked, and more easily seasoned. I peel off the bark and there's my back, then i tiller the bow. Very simple and simple is always better to me. My .02.
Also, many people on here have negated TTBB's statements that white woods must be build with wide limbs and must be made longer. I see members such as Half Eye,Ken, and many others making short, narrow bows all the time pulling hunting weights. :-\
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I think your focusing too much on design alone and not thinking of the bigger picture and ALL the other characteristics as to what makes a great bow wood. Design can only get you so far. You have to weigh everything like tension,compression,elasticity,bend resistance,decay resistant,cast,workability,durability,and I'm probably forgetting a few. But if you were to take all those categories and list the top five woods to all those individual categories osage will make it in everyone and have the highest overall rating hands down.
And my many experiences with osage and whitewoods,and my bows are my explanation as to why it holds that shape better when you unclamp it,and after tillering. I've made plenty of bows with other woods as well that hold awesome reflex,but if I designed them shorter and narrower the same as I would osage they wouldn't have. And a shorter narrower bow is gonna be my number one choice in a hunting situation over a longer and wider bow
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[quote author=ryoon4690 link=topic=36150.msg475155#msg475155 date=1354048646
CMB, There is no logical explanation for why heavier tips would more efficiently cast a heavier arrow farther. Think of it this way. If you hit a golf ball with a golf club it'll go very far, but hit it with a slow moving train and it wouldn't go nearly as far. The train has more energy but slow is slow no matter what the object being moved is. As for why your results differ logically, there are just too many variable to be sure that your results are an accurate judgement of the phenomenon.
[/quote]
Ryan, by that same logic, hitting a golf ball with a very fast moving tooth pic should hit the ball very very far. Fast is fast, but you also need mass to move mass. At some point there is an optimal balance between mass and speed, but trains and tooth-pics are on an irrelevant scale to this discussion.
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CMB, that's true. Poor metaphor. But both a bow with light tips and a bow with heavy tips are going to have the same stored energy except that the bow with heavy tips will suck up that energy and it won't go to the arrow no matter what the arrow mass.
blackhawk, there are many good qualities of osage but of the ones you listed, decay resistance and workability are the only ones that design doesn't take into effect. Also for your bows of other woods to hold the same reflex they'd need to be wider, not necessarily longer. Why would a shorter wider bow be bad?
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This is interesting!
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I'm confused by the claim that osage is a relatively easy wood to work with hand tools. I'd say its about the toughest stuff to work with that I've tried, save maybe Jatoba and Ipe.
Gabe
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I mean, it rasps ok, but I find it hell on a draw knife and cabinet scraper. And its a lousy wood to split.
Gabe
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"So say a .40sg poplar bow is 1/2" wide five inches form its tip, and that if any narrower it would be unstable laterally. Now make a .80sg osage bow, same length, poundage, etc. To be as optimized as the poplar bow it will be 50% narrower. Osage is about 50% stiffer than poplar, but if the outer limbs are narrowed by 50%, something new comes into play: Reduce width and lateral stiffness reduces by a cubic function. If the poplar's outer limb was reduced in width by half it would become one-eighth as stiff. A wet noodle laterally. The osage's 50% extra stiffness would be insignificant; the outer limb would fold. This is why a best-designed osage bow will be slower than a best-designed lighter-wood bow. Can I get a high five for that explanation?"
Thoughts?
Hmm, let me say that I agree that most osage bows are overbuilt in the outer third, but that is not a nock on osage. I also agree that osage limbs are going to have more mass in the outer third even when the design utilizes narrow tips that maximize the compression strength of osage (i.e. limb tips that approach the point of lateral instability). Which is another way of saying what Baker says above.
A possible benefit of more mass in the outer limbs: While I am not arguing for heavy tips, I believe that the energy stored in a properly made osage bow can be most efficiently utilized by a heavy arrow. I have noticed that my osage hunting bow (57#) can cast a 850 grn arrow 5yds shy of 500grn arrow. That is not much difference in cast for a relatively great difference in arrow mass. I know these dynamics are complicated by a number of variables, but I think those slightly heavier tips transfer a greater percentage of stored energy into heavier arrows. A distinct advantage for a hunting weapon.
Thanks for instigating this discussion. :laugh:
SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP!! I've always considered the limb mass to be extremely important in affecting arrow speed. In other discussions on fps, people always bring up arrow mass and never consider the limb mass the bow has to move. That's why a heavier arrow CAN get more kinetic energy than a lighter arrow from the same bow (it will get about the same speed). Your observation is a great example: that 850grn arrow has about 60% more KE than the 500. Sorry, hijack . . .
So to get back on track, i agree with your point on tip mass, but i do love my whitewoods ;)
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in my opinion alot of bows posted are overbuilt of all wood types, including some of mine, Bub
Could you elaborate more on the "overbuilt of all wood types"....................are you referring to mostly a weight issue and heavy design..?
basicly overbuilt, length and width, i built a maple backed epe for halfeye that'slike 50" long and 1" wide i think, a heavy hunting bow that's screamin' fast, but you see a lot of bows 72" @ 26" draw, not exactlly pushing the limits of the wood, but a bendy handle bow 54" ntn should get 28" if well tillered, just my opinion, Bub
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Maybe I get weird Osage. I do live in Humboldt county, lots of weird stuff up here, ;D ;D.
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Also for your bows of other woods to hold the same reflex they'd need to be wider, not necessarily longer. Why would a shorter wider bow be bad?
My experience tells me that that's a fallacy and not a true to all statement. I've played with that theory and its simply not true to all. For an extreme example go ahead and try to make a 50" long poplar bow with a 40/60 lever to working limb ratio pull more than 50@25"...well let me spare you from wasting your time and tell you it won't work because the wood doesn't have the tension,compression,and elasticity as osage. Design can only take you so far man. I'm telling ya. For 3 more normal examples I have tried hickory,hophornbeam,and hackberry(all strong interlocking grain woods that are very tension strong and elastic fir there mass)into 60" bows into a 60/40 ratio bend in the handle mollies. And guess what..ALL failed in tension and believe me ALL were proper width and were bending perfecto. Some woods can only go so far even if you think you have it perfectly designed and tillered,because they are just not as elastic,tension and compression strong as osage is. I have a much higher risk of failure with my short bendy mollies with other woods. Some have survived this and are excellent bows,but an osage has never let me down and a much better chance of success.
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I also agree that osage is easier to work than other woods.
With regards to heavier limbs shooting a heavy arrow faster. If a bow with heavy limbs and one with lighter limbs shoot the same arrow, the bow with lighter limbs will shoot the arrow faster. Why would arrow mass make a difference? With both arrows the heavy limbs suck up more precious stored energy meaning there's less to go to the arrow.
Blackhawk, I don't believe that the bows you described would have been properly designed if they broke. I may be misinformed but I'd like to see where you learned that they are all less elastic and have less tensile and compressive strength.
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I keep seeing "Osage is easy to work" I don't know what osage you guy are using but the stuff I got is harder than stone!
And can we please define durability? Bc I'm seeing it used 40 different ways.
Another thing ppl don't like about hedge is having to change a ring..... Come on! My first osage stave it took me 20 mins at the most. Now osage isn't my favorite wood bc I'm a lazy bow maker. But roll up them sleeves and do work. If you want to say that the wood is sluggish then narrow the last 1/3 of the limb. There is no denying its a great wood, every bow wood has its own pros and cons, some more than others. We all build different bows for different reasons, for different purposes and for different or preferred designs. Thusly you will have people who are just as different who have different tastes in wood.
Every wood holds its own value, in different eyes.
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I learned all that from real experiences and not just taking what someone else says as "gods word"... a lot of what you are saying is stuff you have read and are just regurgitating it. No offense to Tim cause he's one of my big influences and smarter than most bowyers,but even Tim had his own biases and not all that he said is "God's word TRUTH". The only way you can prove me wrong is to make that poplar bow if all woods are equal. I don't care if you don't believe me that my designs weren't wide enough,I know that they were. Some woods just have certain limits and not all are equal even if at the same length but made wider,and osage in my opinion based on my experiences tells me that its limits are much greater than any others wood.
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If you were to line up all n. american species of staves ( asides from yew never worked with it) and said pick one,10 out of 10 times I would take the osage. But that is just me.
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I have to disagree. While a lot of what I'm saying agrees with those ideas it's not based on bias but my understanding of the physics of this all. I wouldn't start this discussion just to blow smoke. I'm just trying to start talks that will help us all further our understanding. If they were wide enough then they wouldn't have broken. Get wood thin enough and it will bend to the radius you want it to. Then make it wide enough to have the strength you want. Even if extremely wide it wouldn't have broken. Also I think a 60/40 working/stiff ratio at that length, draw length, and draw weight is poor for any wood. How wide were the bows?
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With regards to heavier limbs shooting a heavy arrow faster. If a bow with heavy limbs and one with lighter limbs shoot the same arrow, the bow with lighter limbs will shoot the arrow faster. Why would arrow mass make a difference? With both arrows the heavy limbs suck up more precious stored energy meaning there's less to go to the arrow.
Now you are asking the right question, Ryan. So why would arrow mass make a difference? Because the arrow constitutes 1/2 of the equation when we discuss bow performance..and like k-hat pointed out, the arrow 1/2 often times gets ignored. Here is my theory, albeit half-baked while I chased a ring on half an osage stave: Upon release of the string, an arrow imparts resistance to the movement of the bow limbs, proportional to the arrows mass. We talk non-stop about force draw curves of the bow (well, maybe we don't, but a lot of bowyers do), but what about the resistance curve of the arrow as it is being shot? It is not a straight line, there is a loading up initially as the arrow compresses and flexes behind the relatively heavy point/tip. A heavier arrow with stiffer spine and heavier point would impart greater resistance, particularly during the initial "loading up" phase. While a lite tip bow and a heavy tip bow of equal draw weight impart the same momentary force to the arrow, the heavier tip bow will have greater inertia, imparting more energy to the arrow through this loading up phase. Can anyone who actually understands physics evaluate that thought for me?
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I love these "my dad can whip your dad" discussions!! ::)
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Okay..no problems here and I have no issue respectfully disagreeing. ;) the only way you can make me believe you is if I see that 50" poplar 40/60 ratio Molly drawing at least 50@25". Not all woods are created equally even if made wider to be able to take the strain in my opinion. The hackberry was 3" wide full width of working limbs,and the hhb n hick were 2 1/2" wide full width. And all were VERY thin,but don't remember exact thickness. All staves..maybe I just had some bad luck. All were only intended for a 26" draw.
Anyways...I'm out and don't need to explain myself anymore even tho much more can be said...I know osage is best. <------ that's a period ;)
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CMB, the heavier tip would have more inertia but this would cause MORE resistance to movement in the beginning stages. The force of the limbs would have to put more force into moving the tips because of their extra mass.
blackhawk, I'm seriously considering making that poplar bow. ;)
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and can make ANY design out there and do it well,whereas a lot of other woods are limited and more "design specific" and limited to what they can take and do.
I wish that were true. I won't make an osage longbow anymore without it having at least 3" reflex from the start, cause if it don't, the extra mass just kills the performance. I love my osage longbows, but they don't never touch the performance of my mulberry longbows, which end up looking somewhat similar in the end anyway, and have enough meat on the tips to allow for traditional horn nocks. Where as if I don't do whip tiller-inducing needle tips on my osage longbows, it really shows in the hand shock and performance of the bow.
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Okay one more time.lol...my point is that if you try ten times with the poplar you might get a shooter or two,but I bet you wood get a shooter every time with the osage.
But ill be waiting for that bow from ya ;)
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Who makes poplar bows?
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Osage is by no means an "inferior" wood. Doesn't make the best WLB or ELB. So what.
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<snip...>Can anyone who actually understands physics evaluate that thought for me?
I don't recall what I once knew in University Physics too much,
...but I do know football! ...a little anyway. Think of Linemen. Really big, heavy, and strong. They are endowed with a little extra inertia compared to say a corner or a free safety. Now all that inertia does slow you down, if the question is one of taking off from a standing start; however, it also translates into increased momentum once you are started and the question becomes one of blocking continued forward progress. Linemen apply an insane amount of force per moment to whatever they touch because of this inertia/momentum.
So, how does this apply to the arrow being shoved forward by the bowstring, which is being pulled violently forward by the nock tips? Well, in this example, bows are like linemen in that they can only apply force to the object they are working against as long as they are touching it. So, when the tips take off, if they are Lineman tips, they take a little longer to get moving in the first place, but once they are moving, they have the potential to impart much more energy per moment of contact than do their Free Saftey type counter parts. If the arrow being shoved forward is another lineman, (750+ grains for example), then the heavier nocks are going to have a longer opportunity AND a greater potential to impart force into the projectile. Conversely, if the arrow is a Wide Reciever, (say a super light carbon fiber flight arrow), the speed advantage of the Free Safety nocks is going to be more evident in the observed results.
...at least that's what made sense to my way of thinking. 8)
OneBow
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So... this bow maker walks into a bar where bowyers are known to hang out, and starts a 'discussion' on the best bow wood...
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Hahahahahaha
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Osage burns hotter than all of them, you cant argue that Sparty!
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This kind of discussion led to the first MOJAM, where bows were tested for speed. If I recall, the fastest Osage bow came in somewhere around number 5, although I don't have my TBB with me. Of course other factors such as durability weren't evaluated.
Gabe
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This kind of discussion led to the first MOJAM, where bows were tested for speed. If I recall, the fastest Osage bow came in somewhere around number 5, although I don't have my TBB with me. Of course other factors such as durability weren't evaluated.
Gabe
Tim hermetically sealed his bows before going into the high Missouri humidity,and all the bows were shot with the same 500 grain arrow,and not the same grains per pound,and then based it on a general theory that a bow should shoot 100+ whatever the weight of it was. It was a very crude lopsided test IMHO. A lot has changed even since then...I love the TBB's, but there is a lot of bias and BS in them that you have to be able to read between the lines.
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I'm not sure too much stock should be put in the various types of bows possible from a wood. Many of the bow types we shoot are just to satisfy our experimental side. You can generally make any bow type from any decent wood by tweaking length and width.
What is harder to prove is that an Osage bend in the handle Mollie of say 56 inches is any better than say an Elm or HHB that's a couple of inches longer and a hair wider.
There generally isn't a prize just for making a bow "possible". It still has to do its thing.
While the first Mojam is still disputed we still haven't seen any sign that the results would be any different.
A good comparison would be for someone who has a made a really good bow from each of a wide variety of woods to pit them against each other.
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come on guys, keep this discussion going, i need something to pull me from my homework ;D ::)
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Dave 55, There was once an entire civilization that dedicated themselves to trying to make poplar bows. But for some reason they died of starvation.
OneBow, Its true that the heavy tips would be more difficult to stop but they are slower. The heavy tips and light tips of two different bows move at different speeds and that's all there is too it. Look at the equation relating force, mass, and acceleration, Force = mass x acceleration. The force is equal for both bows so as mass increases, acceleration decreases for the force to stay the same. Independent of arrow mass heavy tips move slower with equal force from the bow meaning there's less force to put into the arrow.
MOJam Part 2 anyone? ;D
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<snip...>Can anyone who actually understands physics evaluate that thought for me?
...at least that's what made sense to my way of thinking. 8)
OneBow
Thank you onebowonder for putting that in terms we can all understand...Football. That was beautiful man.
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OneBow, Its true that the heavy tips would be more difficult to stop but they are slower. The heavy tips and light tips of two different bows move at different speeds and that's all there is too it. Look at the equation relating force, mass, and acceleration, Force = mass x acceleration. The force is equal for both bows so as mass increases, acceleration decreases for the force to stay the same. Independent of arrow mass heavy tips move slower with equal force from the bow meaning there's less force to put into the arrow.
Ryan, there you go again, trying to leave the arrow out of the equation. And I thought you said you understood the physics of this stuff. If you are talking about the speed of your bow tips upon dry-fire, then why dont you just do some tests on some of your bows and get back to us >:D.
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@patm...I generally agree with you,and I'm not in the osage only camp(far from it really)...in my opinion speed results are not the only factor as to what makes the best bow...I have made short bendy mollies from both woods and guess which one sees the most action in the woods? And that's proof enough for me. And we all have so many differing opinions on what makes a great bow,that any test anyone comes up with will be disputed. ;)
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Those who do not study history eventually claim it never happened. ;)
I don't recall whether it was Clarence Hickman or Paul Klopsteg (both physicists) who measured the effect of the mass of limb tips back in the 1930s. Whichever did it added successively greater weights to the limb tips and measured the result on arrow speed. Shots were made with a shooting machine.
The lightest tips produced the most arrow speed with any arrow.
It's all written up in "Archery, the Technical Side."
How 'bout a thread on "How many teeth are there in a horses mouth?" (No fair checking with the horse's mouth. Just argue opinions.)
Jim Davis
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The football analogy really isn't a good one. The slower heavy guys are still accelerating when they do their thing. A bow with heavy tips isn't still digging into the turf and gaining momentum on the loose.
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I'm not big into all this physics talk, I've never shot a bow through a Chrono, and I've never done a F/D graph. But I do have one question. If osage is inferior, why are there so many osage character bows? You see them with big holes in the limbs, wind checks, knots, bug damage, heck, I have one with a bullet hole in it. I have seen a few character bows from other woods, but not many, and not with the same amount of flaws that an osage bow can withstand. Why are osage bows able to still work with all of those problems?
Each wood has its best designs and limits and if built within those limits they are fairly equal performance wise. I like osage because of the many reasons Blackhawk mentioned. The most important reason I prefer it is because it is tough. I can screw a lot of things up on an osage bow and still end up with a working bow at the end.
I think arrow speed is an overused way of judging bows. How did Native Americans make bows for thousands of years and not know how many F.P.S. they shot? I'll take a tough dependable bow over a fast, on the edge bow any day. But that's just me. And this is just my opinion from my simple brain.
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There are so many Osage character bows because it tends to grow that way and people like them.
There is a dearth of Native American character bows though, from any wood.
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CMB, let me put it this way. Any given bow will shot a heavier arrow slower than a lighter arrow. Also, a bow with heavier outer limbs will shoot any given arrow slower than a bow with lighter outer limbs. Now add those together.
Osage outlaw, character bows can be built from any wood. I've seen a white wood bow with hole so big you could probably throw a football through it. Yes osage can take a lot more than other wood but I think that's an excuse for poor workmanship more than for the wood.
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CMB, let me put it this way. Any given bow will shot a heavier arrow slower than a lighter arrow. Also, a bow with heavier outer limbs will shoot any given arrow slower than a bow with lighter outer limbs. Now add those together.
Osage outlaw, character bows can be built from any wood. I've seen a white wood bow with hole so big you could probably throw a football through it. Yes osage can take a lot more than other wood but I think that's an excuse for poor workmanship more than for the wood.
That doesn't really make sense to me.
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Yes osage can take a lot more than other wood but I think that's an excuse for poor workmanship more than for the wood.
If you even admit yourself that osage can take a lot more than other wood,then how is it an inferior wood back to your original statement?
And when I make an osage bow I ain't putting in any poor workmanship Into from start to finish,its just the opposite because its the best and deserves to be treated as the best to give it justice.
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I mean one can build an osage bow improperly and it'll still not explode. Some other bow woods aren't as forgiving. Yes it can take more but say you make an osage bow that bends way too much right out from the fades. Yes it'll probably survive where other woods wont but the tiller is still off and with that much moving mass it'll be a dog. I hope no one took that comment personally. It wasn't a jab at anyone's workmanship.
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the only way you can make me believe you is if I see that 50" poplar 40/60 ratio Molly drawing at least 50@25".
What do I win?
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_1639.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_1640.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_1641.jpg)
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Hahahahahaha.... Holy cow... That just made my day. Give him 3 hours and he makes an UN-buildable bow.. Wow...
Jon
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I mean one can build an osage bow improperly and it'll still not explode. Some other bow woods aren't as forgiving. Yes it can take more but say you make an osage bow that bends way too much right out from the fades. Yes it'll probably survive where other woods wont but the tiller is still off and with that much moving mass it'll be a dog. I hope no one took that comment personally. It wasn't a jab at anyone's workmanship.
See...now your coming around. And that is exactly why and one of the many reasons why osage is not inferior and the vast majority of bowyers agree that osage is the best.
And I ain't taking nothing personal...just enjoying a semi healthy debate that's been raging for many years..and it'll continue on long after were gone..we ain't solving anything but feeding our love to debate fir the fun of it ;)... most folks that have responded in this thread enjoy debating for the sake of debating ..I am one of those ..lol
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I am not arguing for poorly designed bows with heavy tips, or successively adding miniature dumbbells to the very tips of bows as we mechanically release arrow after arrow through a chronograph. Ryoon, you brought to our attention that no matter how efficient we design our osage bows, the outer limb will have more mass than that of a lighter wood. In my experience, Osage likes a heavy arrow. I think the two are related. I guess I will have to do my own controlled studies to provide support for this hypothesis....Lets take another look in that horses mouth! By the way, my tests will not be limited to arrow speed at launch, as I feel that is a misleading measure of performance. How about energy imparted to a target at various distances?
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CMB, Then what are you arguing? Also, to say that osage likes heavy arrows means nothing unless you put it in measurable terms. If you do experiment on it please share the results so we can all learn from it. With heavy tipped bows, energy upon impacting the target will be less because the arrow will be moving slower.
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LMAO..I knew you'd take the bait and try...now go ahead and try to spine some arrows to that and shoot thousands of arrows out of it,then go shoot a deer with it...that in my opinion is a bow...you missed my point that its going to be an impractical bow...have fun trying to shoot it...so..hows it shoot?
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ryoon, i wonder how that thing preforms
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I'm not sure you're going to find that an arrow delivers any more energy as a result of anything but its initial velocity.
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When I saw the title of this thread I thought for sure I would open it up and see nukes going off. :o I'm pleased to see a good discussion going. I've never built a bow from osage so I won't pretend to comment on the merits of the wood compared to other woods...Maybe one day I will.
I couldn't resist throwing this out though.
Q. What makes a good bow?
A. A good The bowyer. ;D
I understand the question / statement is assuming the bowyer knows what he's doing to begin with.
And I know that's not what this thread is about. I just wanted to say it.
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blackhawk, Excuses excuses. I win fair and square. Of course the bow is hugely impractical but it serves its purpose. Any well made, properly designed bow will do what is asked of it. Now assuming osage is twice as dense as poplar, an osage bow would be half the width at 1.75" wide. Still practical in osage? I think not.
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I mean one can build an osage bow improperly and it'll still not explode. Some other bow woods aren't as forgiving. Yes it can take more but say you make an osage bow that bends way too much right out from the fades. Yes it'll probably survive where other woods wont but the tiller is still off and with that much moving mass it'll be a dog. I hope no one took that comment personally. It wasn't a jab at anyone's workmanship.
A dog of a bow is better than a broken bow. Maybe not by much, but still better.
Can you please show us how to hold and shoot a bow that is 4" wide. If that were made from osage it would fit nicely in your hand. :)
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CMB, Then what are you arguing? Also, to say that osage likes heavy arrows means nothing unless you put it in measurable terms. If you do experiment on it please share the results so we can all learn from it. With heavy tipped bows, energy upon impacting the target will be less because the arrow will be moving slower.
Ryan, my hypothesis is that when comparing an osage bow with a lighter wood bow of same draw weight, the optimal mass arrow for the osage bow will be heavier than that for the lighter wood bow.
That is an impressive poplar bow, but where is your arrow going to pass? Again, Ryan, you are leaving the arrow out of the equation.
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I am not arguing for poorly designed bows with heavy tips, or successively adding miniature dumbbells to the very tips of bows as we mechanically release arrow after arrow through a chronograph. ....Lets take another look in that horses mouth! ....
[/quote
Glad to see ONE of you firebrands read that post.
Jim
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if he cuts a hole in the center he should be able to get it close to center shot, also, he could attach some raised handle to the bow allowing him to hold it and effectively shoot it. This could be a practical bow, weather people would really want it or not is a different question.
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Like patm said making that doesn't prove anything ..you don't win,I don't win..we both win because we both have different opinions on what a great bow is. So answer my question..hows it shoot after a few hundred arras? Lmao :laugh:
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CMB, so does that mean each species of wood has a particular arrow weight that it shoots best at? ???
Again, that bow is of course a better paddle than a bow, but it serves its purpose. Design is everything.
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blackhawk, and I quote "the only way you can make me believe you is if I see that 50" poplar 40/60 ratio Molly drawing at least 50@25". Not all woods are created equally even if made wider to be able to take the strain in my opinion. The hackberry was 3" wide full width of working limbs,and the hhb n hick were 2 1/2" wide full width. And all were VERY thin,but don't remember exact thickness."
I don't see anything in there about handles and the bows you made and broke were 60", not 50". So how come you bows broke and mine didn't? ;D
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I don't see anything in there about handles and the bows you made and broke were 60", not 50". So how come you bows broke and mine didn't? ;D
:o
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I'm not sure you're going to find that an arrow delivers any more energy as a result of anything but its initial velocity.
Pat, this is from the traditional Bowhunter's Bible (Conrads 2003). It says different. The lighter arrow loses twice as much energy as the heavy arrow when comparing launch and 40 yards distance.
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I can't believe your still missing the point. Of course I know you can make pines,willows,poplars,and woods rated as non bow woods bend if made wide enough...but just being able to make it bend doesn't mean its a bow and is great bow wood IMO. And there was obviously more to what I was experimenting with on the ones I broke.
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That's not the point you were arguing. You said that no matter how you design some woods they will break and this proves that idea wrong. The experimenting wasn't obvious in your description. Also you blamed the wood species not the experimenting also saying they were the proper width and excellent tiller.
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Ill answer your question as soon as you answer mine that I have now asked three times...maybe I need to type it in BOLD...SO HOWS IT SHOOT AFTER A FEW HUNDRED ARRAS? .and the contradictions you stated that I quoted...lol :laugh:
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I'm not sure you're going to find that an arrow delivers any more energy as a result of anything but its initial velocity.
Pat, this is from the traditional Bowhunter's Bible (Conrads 2003). It says different. The lighter arrow loses twice as much energy as the heavy arrow when comparing launch and 40 yards distance.
This has nothing to do with your point. You are talking about Osage "liking" a heavy arrow because it is heavy in weight but any bow that shoots a heavy arrow is also going to be heavy in weight.
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I'll take my prize now. 8)
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I'll take my prize now. 8)
your prize is.................OSAGE ;D
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I do agree that it would be cool to see it shoot and to see it work efficiently. I think you can make it shoot over 100 arrows, you just need to add a comfortable handle and a centershot hole
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I agree Scott.Wow this thread grew fast. 7 pages of Osage defenders in court going at it with THE OTHER GUYS. ;D
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By the way, do you always have a stick of straight grained poplar sitting around in case you're challenged to make a crazy bow? Props to you for actually doing it. Any frets yet?
Dictionary, have you even made an osage bow >:D
No and probably never will ;D.
I'll take my local white woods any day of the year than to pay for osage, season it for years, work it down to one ring around a bunch of knots, then work that tough stuff with my semi-sharp hatchet ::)
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fishfinder, your comment made me laugh out loud. :laugh:
ionicmuffin, I wouldn't dare shoot an arrow from it since I'm not exactly sure where it would go! But imagine I cut it in half and added a realistic handle. The bow would be less stressed and shootable. It would just change weather patterns when shot. ;D
Scott D, I literally went out and got the piece right after dinner. I believe in the design principles I speak of. No frets at all. It's completely flat on the belly as I tillered it with my belt sander. Also I trapped in towards the belly to take some strain off the back. Even so it's only taken an inch of set.
Dictionary, you should definitely make an osage bow. It's great wood.
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Lol fishy...that's pretty funny :laugh:
You can't make that same design with pine..lmao :laugh: get one of my points now? :laugh:
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I'm not sure you're going to find that an arrow delivers any more energy as a result of anything but its initial velocity.
Pat, this is from the traditional Bowhunter's Bible (Conrads 2003). It says different. The lighter arrow loses twice as much energy as the heavy arrow when comparing launch and 40 yards distance.
This has nothing to do with your point. You are talking about Osage "liking" a heavy arrow because it is heavy in weight but any bow that shoots a heavy arrow is also going to be heavy in weight.
I am not sure I understand the latter part of your statement, but I do contend that the data provided is relevant to my point. It provides data that demonstrates initial arrow velocity is not everything we are concerned with. While a lighter wood bow might shoot a lighter arrow faster, that does not mean it outperforms an osage bow shooting relatively heavy arrows at slightly slower speeds. We need to measure differences in bow performance in metrics that matter, not just initial velocity.
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Oh yeah..and thanks for the entertainment...lol...I knew you couldn't resist :laugh:
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I think a lot of folks get peaved at the the superior attitude of some osage supporters(None of you folks, obviously) and that's what turns them off about the wood.
Yes I'd say you're right on about that. It used to be believed a bow couldn't be made of any wood other than Yew. Then, that a bow couldn't be made of any wood other than Yew or Osage. Some people out there still have preconcieved notions that Osage and Yew are the only woods to make "proper" bows out of.
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I am not sure I understand the latter part of your statement, but I do contend that the data provided is relevant to my point. It provides data that demonstrates initial arrow velocity is not everything we are concerned with. While a lighter wood bow might shoot a lighter arrow faster, that does not mean it outperforms an osage bow shooting relatively heavy arrows at slightly slower speeds. We need to measure differences in bow performance in metrics that matter, not just initial velocity.
That chart doesn't show what bow type we're comparing and what the mass of the bow itself is. I'm presuming one is a compound. I don't really follow the chart and presume it has some inherent error since two parts about it make little sense.
Still it doesn't pertain to your theory since you are talking about the density and relative mass of an Osage bow.
Any other bow wood designed to the same specs as your Osage spear tosser will weigh about the same and have just as much mass working for it.
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Pat, I agree the chart is lacking. Give me a month, and I will have some of my own objective data together.
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I appreciate the respectful debate going on here. If this good of a discussion was happening on a hunting forum that I'm a member on, it would have been locked down before it reached page 3 because of disrespect and rudeness. This shows what kind of good people Primitive Archers are :)
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Scott, Although the title of this thread was about osage being inferior, the real message is that tons of woods should be considered equal in the sense that they can make good bows. There are lots of reasons to like a specific wood and I have many reasons that I like osage. Thinking it can make a better bow is not one of those reasons. I hope to make bows out of all kinds of woods as long as I keep doing it. Now I can check poplar off the list! ;D
blackhawk, you're lucky homedepot isn't open right now or I'd have to make another bow to prove my point. ;) Also I'm going to finish that poplar bow and hang it on my wall as a trophy. >:D
osage outlaw, I completely agree. I love this community.
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Wow... I stay away for a few hours and looky what y'all done, turn an 2 pager into a 10 pager!! :o
gonna hafta go get some coffee and sit a spell, just enjoying the playful banter ;)
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I'm hoping to see a lot more poplar bows after this thread just so everyone knows. ;D
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(1) Before any debate on bow woods can be had, you have to state first what you want your bow to do.
Are you going for pure speed? Are you trying to make a bow that will take a lot of abuse? Are you trying to make a bow that doubles as a back scratcher?
After answering that you can discuss what woods will be suited to producing the desired results in your bow,
(2) Design is not everything. Otherwise a thread about Osage being inferior would be a total waste of time.If design was everything, no wood would be inferior. But some are, there is a reason some woods are used more often for bows than others. However, the folks who know (not me) say that when it comes to speed most bow woods can be designed to get pretty damn close in the speed department.
(3) I believe that elasticity, an work-ability are two of the most important traits in a good bow wood for most any kind of bow. To quote Steve (who is strangely absent from this debate, probobly because he's had it 1000 times before)
"Higher density woods are not necessarily faster than lower density woods. The potential mass you build a bow at has more to do with elasticity than it does density of the wood. A wood that is more elastic can be built lighter than a bow with less elastic wood."
Osage is a heavy, elastic wood. Yew is a light, elastic woods. Very little else comes close the elasticity of osage and yew. Hmmm and they are the most commonly used bow woods.
And for the phsyics nerds lets not forget this:
A typical good energy breakdown released when a bow is shot:
70% - arrow kinetic energy
7% - string kinetic energy
10% - hysteresis (internal friction and damping generating "heat" in the bow arms)
13% - limb kinetic energy in the form of vibration generated in the power stroke
So, the 23% of energy loss in hysterisis and limb vibration are the percent we can make gains in from wood choice and design. Reducing hysterisi and limb vibration should be the thing that speed junkies think about most. Guess which woods tend to have the lowest internal friction...elastic woods like yew and Osage. Short working limbs tend to be more effecient because they doen't vibrate as much. And you get short working limbs more easily with.... elastic wood.
I'm no osage junkie. I much prefer plum, and yew. But the wood has a lot going for it in the bow making department. I've heard that Osage doesn't like dry climates? Anybody want to weight in on that.
Gabe
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Aaaaaaand I'm out.
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I really like the way you've introduced elasticity because it does play a big role. Many woods are not elastic enough to make good bows but the ones that are can be made to make bows just as good as osage and yew even though those two are more elastic. The reason more elastic woods can be built with less mass is because they can be thicker and bend to the same shape at the same weight. This is a complete hypothesis but, where yew may benefit from its elasticity with its average density, osage can not make up for it because of its mass. I completely disagree that design isn't everything. When designing bows, every factor is taken into account and that includes elasticity. Most of what we consider bow woods can be designed to fit our needs in any case.
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If design is everything, why start a thread called "Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood?" That title itself says you don't believe design is evrything.
To really take advantage of elsastic woods, high stress design, and pushing the limits if "underbuilt" is the way to go.
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Ross, Mostly it was to get people in here and start up discussion. But within the first post is a good explanation of why osage can't make a faster bow than other woods. Say a white wood bow is made for maximum performance with outer limbs as narrow as possible and stable. If an osage bow were to have it's tips narrowed to equal the mass of the lighter wood it would most likely lose lateral stability. To remain stable it would have increase mass and therefore be slower. I'm not sure what you mean by your second sentence.
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That exact argument was put forth by Tim Baker years ago. Makes sense. Interesting though, that he used pecan for Mojam. Pecan is almost as dense as osage.
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Dang it! I turn my back for just a little bit and you folks are all off into this age old bowyer debate ..... right down to building poplar bows!! ;D
I think this site has got more great people on it than any place on the internet. Seriously, you guys are to be commended for treating each other with politeness and seeming to always take the high road and treating each other with respect. "osage ...an inferior bow wood"... whew!, that would have lit the fuse!! Good discussion - I really enjoyed it.
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i think that making the lever bows is much easier than making a very carefully tillered wooden recurve like the modern ones. thus you do see more made that way, it has been tested, and more people can say that it makes a bow faster to have narrow tips because the tips have less air resistance. It will gain only a few fps, but it is faster, it also has less overall mass at the tips, allowing them to accelerate faster, and on top of that, it reduces hand shock, thus it would be more popular to have something faster by a bit and yet still accurate. If you really want to get into theory then we should start taking this to a level of physics so we can actually see whats going on. if we had several test bows of different styles you could find out whats going on and why it is effective.
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Scott, I've been wondering that same thing for a while now. I think it comes down to recurve design and the mass of the limb. Modern fiberglass recurves have very short working limbs which means lower limb mass in general. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the recurves are usually working which increases energy storage (I think?). These bows are also very laterally unstable. Because of the materials and the advantages of the design I think it's more effective to make it that style where a stiffer, narrow recurve would just be unstable. With wood bows of any design the outer part of the limb hardly stores any energy and doesn't do much bending past a certain point. That part of the bow can be narrowed to reduce mass with no ill effects, thus making the bow faster. I think some faster designs are capable of being made from wood but straight stave bows are much more stable and easier to make.
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Oh, and fiberglass is a MUCH better material if you are just looking at it speed wise. my 45 lb fiberglass recurve that i used to have was able to shoot at about 200 fps maybe a bit more, that much more speed is why many bow hunters have migrated to that style of bow, and if you bring out the compound bows you get upwards of 250-300 fps, so its obviously superior design for the style of materials i doubt wood could handle the stress if you make it very similar to the glass recurve style
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i doubt wood could handle the stress if you make it very similar to the glass recurve style
challenge ACCEPTED!!!!!!!
(i will get to it at some point lol.... i have so many unfinished bows ::))
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Oh, and fiberglass is a MUCH better material if you are just looking at it speed wise. my 45 lb fiberglass recurve that i used to have was able to shoot at about 200 fps maybe a bit more, that much more speed is why many bow hunters have migrated to that style of bow, and if you bring out the compound bows you get upwards of 250-300 fps, so its obviously superior design for the style of materials i doubt wood could handle the stress if you make it very similar to the glass recurve style
...which goes back to what was said about there being more to a bow than just arrow speed.... durability, weight, length, climate where it's to be used.... lots to consider when you start comparing types of wood. Osage would probably be top of my list, but I am lazy and don't enjoy chasing rings! Osage works good in our weather down south. If I were hunting Arizona I would use hickory.... Man, I didn't mean to way in on this.... ;)
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Scott, while there are many factors to design and performance, it's been proven that reducing outer limb mass can greatly contribute to increased arrow speed. Do I understand you correctly in that the bow you're proposing would be a whip tillered bow with long stiff handle section?
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I used to think the same thing. A bow such as that would have a short amount of working limb and the extra length would increase energy storage. But, I believe a stiff tipped limb can have less outer limb mass than one that works and it would also have lower string angle leading to more energy storage. There's also the concept of leverage in bows which I have yet to sort out in my head. That's for another thread though. :o
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i know what the fastest design is..... the one i'm not make ;D
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All arguments aside Here is my theory...
is Osage a better bow wood then any other?...no!
Is Osage a better wood in which to make a bow?... quite possibly yes
performance, beauty, and bias aside
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Man I missed all of this,O well didn't have much input anyway. Got all the TBB,
just never read them and know nothing about physics. ;) ;D ;D Osage makes a great bow as do many other woods. Don't know much about speed or design,just build bows to shoot and hunt with. Love to read all this stuff tho. :) Thanks for keeping it clean,you guys are the greatest. :)
Pappy
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So, we have a consensus this morning. Osage makes the best bows, Poplar makes the most flexible laundry paddles. ;D
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the only way you can make me believe you is if I see that 50" poplar 40/60 ratio Molly drawing at least 50@25".
What do I win?
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_1639.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_1640.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_1641.jpg)
HA!
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So, we have a consensus this morning. Osage makes the best bows, Poplar makes the most flexible laundry paddles. ;D
Exactly..glad someone else sees nothing but a laundry paddle.
When I tell newcomers I preach design and tillering are the two most important things in bowmaking and go hand in hand. And in my mind that "thing" only proves my point that design can only take you so far with certain woods. If you were to narrow a handle section on that enough ti where you could actually shoot arrows and actually call it a bow it wood outright break. Design forced Ryan to make something that is totally useless and impractical that won't even shoot arrows. If it can't shoot arrows(comfortably and within normal reasons) its not a bow.
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The title of this thread is inflammatory - I'm sure on purpose. MOJam was started by internet discussion of white wood vs osage many years ago. The resulting "Put your whitewood bows up against osage bows" was the main purpose of the first MOJam gathering. Results were that a very carefully made whitewood bow could perform as well as osage if speed were the only measure.
Osage is difficult (not easy) to work. It is hard, crooked, knotty, must be ring chased and is hard to split. The advantages are overwhelming... It has excellent modulus of elasticity, is incredibly durable, heat bends and is beautiful. I have seen hundreds of hero shots of deer taken with self bows and more than 95% have been with osage.
Some fruit / nut woods will make a very nice hunting bow. Some readily available lumber yard woods will make marginal board bow - mostly useful for learning tillering skills without the time, work and expense of using an osage stave.
That poplar molly board bent on the tiller tree is interesting, but it is not a bow. Does it really pull 50 @ 25? Does part of the definition of a bow include holding it in your bow hand and launching an arrow?
I love to build bows from all kinds of suitable bow woods (this does not include poplar) but for a hunting bow all other woods are second choice or novelty. Anyplace where osage is available, it was and is the choice of all serious hunters.
A Prius is a fine vehicle, but I'll stick to my 4 wheel drive truck for hunting.
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Not all osage is crooked, knotty, hard to work with, and hard to split. In fact, I love splitting osage. I would rather split it than any other wood. It seems to hold its grain and have less run off than other woods I have worked with. And chasing a ring is no big deal unless you have a character stave or super thin rings.
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I'd like to see the 50" Osage bow with the same stats. I'm sure that it's handle would be too wide for anyone but Ishi. OF COURSE THE BOW IS IMPRACTICAL BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT!!! The point is that wood can be designed to be bent the way we want it. Say I added a 6-8" handle section. The bow would still be under 60" and I would have a shootable bow. Design is what allowed 30" of working length in POPLAR to get to a 50#@25" draw and 1" of set. You said yourself that a bow such as this couldn't be made, NOT THAT IT COULD BE SHOT. Lets see your osage bow of the same design.
Edit: length does not decrease bend distance if it's not in the working limb. My bad.
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LOL! Isn't this how MOJAM started?
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Her ya go..now what do I win... >:D and by the way ..This is a real bow..and still shoots amazing to this day and pulls 26" with ease. It has withstood the abuses of a backpacking excursion in a high humidity rugged mountainous terrain,dropped on rocks,used as a walking stick with a 40 pound pack on my back,I even fell when hiking and fell right in top of it,it dinged her up,but she still keeps on shooting.
https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,30598.0.html
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And here's an example in hophornbeam..mind you its 52" but still pulls half its length...see the difference? I love this bow as well,but as a hunter my choice is the osage.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35393.0.html
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I am impressed by that bow but you know that the deflex helps achieve that draw. Plus that handle is still fairly wide. Bet you wouldn't get very far upstream using it as a paddle though! I hope you at least understand the point I'm trying to make. If I haven't changed your mind on other woods then I guess you're not a man of your word. ;)
And the HHB bow. White woods can make those bows and you proved it yourself with that one. So what were you arguing? ???
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Have you shot that poplar board yet Ryoon? It must fly funny being 2 1/2" off center. Hard to tune I bet. Too bad you cant make it half that wide and still get that length and weight from it.
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Its actually a hair under 1 1/4" wide at the handle( the osage ),and that is more than practical handle width.
And I totally agree with everything your saying because I have proved it myself,and since i have with both, my choice and conclusion is the osage is superior in my opinion. I'm not arguing with you at all..I'm just messing with ya cus I know your an easy target..lol.
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This discussion, while interesting, hasn't taken us anywhere new. Nothing that hasn't been said in the last 10 years
Reducing mass on the outer limbs in dense wood like Osage seem to run into diminishing returns in fps before lateral stability becomes an issue. Case and point, Bakers eifle tower Pecan bow. If somebody wants to actually add to the body of knowledge in this, they could:
Make an osage bow with wide tips. Shoot it and through a chrono. Reduce tip mass, weigh the bow and shoot it again. And do this until you develop lateral instability. Than compare the mass and the fps just before lateral instability, to the fps of an bow made from a lighter wood. Of course all the problems with reproducability would rear their heads, but at least this would help us with the clear up how much gain you can expect from mass reduction prior to developing instability issues. This may have been done, but if it has I haven't seen the numbers.
Gabe
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Ryans Poplar bow is massively overbuilt even for Poplar. Yes they need to be wider or longer than other woods, but not to the point of ridiculousness or un-huntability. Tim Baker made a Poplar bows that pulled 50 lbs without being 4 inches wide. If I recall he designed a 50lb at 30 inch draw Poplar bow that was 1.5 inches wide, although a hair over 70" long. Heres a quote from Steve (geeze I find myself quoting a lot)
"Poplar will actually make a pretty decent bow, I have made more than I can count just thinking of them. I know of I have built them at least as high as 70#. Steve"
Gabe
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Pearl Drums, It actually shoots great! Faster and more accurate than my Hoyt Olympic style recurve. ::) I'll try and get video of me shooting it soon.
blackhawk, You're terrible. You know how many people tell me I'm an easy target? Everyone! Well at least I have a bent stick that has many uses such as boat paddle, laundry paddle, boomerang, and fan to name a few.
ross, the easier thing to do would be to take a bow that's already built and add weight to the tips and see how the arrow speed lowers and it's been done. If I'm not mistaken I think 65 grains extra on the tip adds up to a 1fps loss in speed but someone will have to confirm that for me. Also the difference with my poplar bow is that it's only 50" long and only 60% of that is working limb. So really I only have a 30" poplar bow that pulls 50#@25". ;D
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Now I KNOW your full of it Sparty!
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Hmmmmm....
How about making an osage molly with poplar levers... :o The perfect compromise?
...or siyahs, recurves....
You could go a step further and heat treat the belly, induce relfex, back it with sinew....
I wonder how it would perform....
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First let me say how impressed I am that you all have stayed very polite and have had a healthy discussion on what could become a "my dad is better then your dad" discussion.
What I find interesting is the way our experience and comfort zones affect our approach and even our likes or dislikes of certain woods. I have found many people from the southern states like the harder dense woods like Osage, and are often hesitant to work softer woods like yew, vine maple, cascara and other white woods. My observations are they often bow past the target weight and end up with a bow of low poundage.
People from areas where white woods and softer woodsare more common, are often spoiled by the ease of scraping yew and similar woods, and find Osage to be like scraping concrete. I know this is true for me and several others I know in this area.
I see the same scenarios with knapping. Many knappers who have cut there teeth on very hard chert have learned to hit the rock with much more force and when they work obsidian they hit so hard it shatters and they view obsidian as inferior rock.
This being said it is easy to understand why I like yew and juniper more then Osage. For me they heat treat excellent, and are a pleasure to work. I must admit I got a good chuckle out of the "poplar" comments, As my very first primitive bow was made out of poplar. I did not know any better and made a decent shootable bow that is still together. After being told it would eventually blow up I never shot it again. LOL ::)
Yew, Juniper and Vine maple are often full of pin knots and multiple lumps and bumps, that might cause a problem in other woods so it can often through people for a curve on the comfort zone. Even the mindset of not having to remove spawood or chase a ring can make some hesitate on how to start.
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Ok I will put this debate to bed right now! The best bow wood is what ever bow wood you happen to be working at the moment.
It is finished! >:D
Grady
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i agree, the wood you choose to work with is the best! >:D and its true. each to his own.
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Arrowind, I think your on to something. Can't wait to see it when you're finished! ;D
Keenan, You bring up some awesome points as to why people like the woods they do. I noticed "because they make the best bows" wasn't one of them.
Autologus and ionicmuffin, That's the point I'm trying to make. It's not that osage is inferior but that a favorite wood should not be decided on how good of a bow it can make because they can all make great bows.
I personally love osage. Each year at MOJam I buy a stave, make a bow, and shoot it in the clout shoot. Its a real treat to work with compared to the hickory I use all the time. Think chasing a ring on osage is annoying? Try hickory.
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Think chasing a ring on osage is annoying? Try hickory.
couldn't agree more
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"ross, the easier thing to do would be to take a bow that's already built and add weight to the tips and see how the arrow speed lowers and it's been done. If I'm not mistaken I think 65 grains extra on the tip adds up to a 1fps loss in speed but someone will have to confirm that for me. "
Problem with this is you don't take it to the extreme of instability. To validate the claim that an Osage bows tips would have to become unstable to approach the mass needed to achieve speed pf lighter woods, you'd have to go there.
Gabe
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Keenan, I'm right there with yah buddy. You said it perfectly. We're spoiled
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I might have gotten in on this discussion a little late, but I will carry on. I got to thinking about this from a historical perspective, regardless of the inherent physics of different bow woods/designs.
If you were to ask, for example, a Welsh bowyer ca 1300 what the best bow wood is, he would say, unequivocally, "Yew!" Conversely, if you were to ask an Ottawa bowyer, ca 1800, he would say "Osage!" Similarly, a Hun would say "birch, horn, and sinew," and a Pacific islander would say "palm." (I'm sure you guys see where I'm going with this.)
So, historically anyway, the best bow wood is that which supplies the bowyer with the required properties, local climate compatibility, local availability, and familiarity. I am not going to discuss bow designs or limb physics (mostly because I am a rank amateur and am breaking just as many bows as I am getting finished and shootable), but Osage works for me because it's available (aka a noxious, tire-poking, fence-choking weed), climatically stable, and pretty forgiving. However, a bowyer in Oregon is going to use yew because it is available (though not a noxious, tire-poking, fence-choking weed), climatically stable, and forgiving to him. Same for any other available woods. A few people on this thread have said much the same: "the best bow wood is the one you happen to be working."
I will concede, theoretically, that osage seems to suffer from less cast than other woods, but it appears that given proper (or improper) design, any wood can have less cast, or more cast, than osage. Bows seem to be intensely personal things, so I would bet that 1000, 2000, 8000 years ago, many a spirited discussion over the best material has been perpetrated over a fire, or in a mead hall, or in a wickiup. Luckily nowadays we don't settle our bow making differences with a dagger or stone axe to the eye. (God, I hope not)
Just a bit of cultural/historical relativity to brighten the day.
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So if you were told that you'd be thrown out of the back of an airplane with a knife, hatchet, and a stave of your choice into a random corner of the world. What piece of wood would you bring?
I know my answer and it ain't Poplar! ;D
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A 2 inch diameter branch of purple leaf plum. Its never failed me yet. Easy to work, strong, elastic, and makes a fast sweet shooting bow.
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ERC for me. Then I can split it out 4 ways to make a weather resistant, light weight shelter. The knife and hatchet is all I need to survive!
Ryoon...........your still crazy Sparty, aint no wonder they gragatated ya'.
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ross, I see. Putting that hypothesis to the test. Also, good choice of wood. I'd love to try my hand at some purple leaf plum.
Parnell, I'd take the poplar. And the bow as a wing to glide softly to the ground! ;D
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This is likely a good time to mention that "Poplar" boards are highly unlikely to actually be Poplar. Rather they are likely to be from Tulip Tree which is in the Magnolia family.
I'd actually like to see how true Poplar in stave form functions. I do know that the Poplar that ends up making a beaver dam is actually pretty tough wood. Walking across a beaver dam is often like a trampoline made of sticks.
I should also mention that I was given what appears to be a prime Osage stave by a former member on here almost 10 years ago. In the initial stages of working it the wood seemed to show so many non bow wood characteristics that I have yet to finish a bow from the three staves it actually yielded.
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Well........what can I add to all this????
Ryoon - I'd very much like to meet you - I think me and thee are pretty similar in the way we think :) Top marks for starting this.
I like osage but it certainly isn't 'just better than other woods because it's osage'.
Personally I think design, design ,design is the absolute be all and end all because without a great design that takes in ALL the particular characteristics of the material you are using you are on the way to an average bow. Of course execution of that design is another matter all together......
My fastest bows have been recurves with elliptical tiller.....quite similar to modern glass recurves. I've made quite a few molly style bows and whilst they shoot very close speed-wise to the recurves I think they lose out for a few reasons. String angle and stored energy being highest on the list.
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ryoon, i wonder how that thing preforms
hell i wonder how he holds on to it,gotta be pushing 5" wide at the grip, Bub
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Excellent so we've concluded that it is all about the design. A well designed bow of any of the common bow woods will function just fine. Jawge
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Well, yes George we did learn that. But we also learned that if we use Osage, we go from "just fine" to "mighty fine"! >:D 8)
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Osage, hickory, elm, oak, walnut. I just like bow wood!!!! If it will make a bow I like it!
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ok, now ryoon make a poplar warbow come on i dare you lol
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PatM, those are two really interesting points. You are a great source of knowledge.
mikekeswick, I appreciate the kind words. I definitely admire your work. Maybe one day we'll get together and make the perfect bow!
fishfinder401, I won't make any bow I'm dared to make! Unless you provide the materials. Ha.
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i will try it and get back to you, fishfinder. give me some time to select my stave, and i will try it!
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Should I throw heat tempering wood into this discussion ::)? I pesonally have been doing quite a bit with buckthorn lately and I almost like it better than osage......almost ;) It has excellent tension, compression, is light weight, easy to work, charterer laden, beautiful and when heat tempered, takes practically no set. How do you like that wood Chris? You know, there is probably some wood out there in some jungle waiting to be dicovered by the western world that is better than osage.......Ipe?
I'm loving this thread!
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i will try it and get back to you, fishfinder. give me some time to select my stave, and i will try it!
i genuinely can't wait to see how it turns out
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i dont know if you have thought about this, but i think people from the outside would think we are bordering on the insane because we are discussing wood... ::)
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The problem with this discussion is that Tim's base premise that bows of the same length will be about the same thickness regardless of wood species or poundage is false. All you have to do to convince yourself of this is compare similar length bows made of yew and osage. I can't understand why he would believe such a thing.
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The problem with this discussion is that Tim's base premise that bows of the same length will be about the same thickness regardless of wood species or poundage is false. All you have to do to convince yourself of this is compare similar length bows made of yew and osage. I can't understand why he would believe such a thing.
Also black locust comes out thinner per poundage. Stiff stuff.
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Still going,great thread,I think that is what we learned Jawgs. :o :o
I agree Gordon,Hackberry and the latest wood I have helped out with Seagrape. ;) ;D Much thicker but both very light physical weight. :)Still make a snappy bow. :)
Pappy
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To say all woods are equal is just untrue...if they are all equal then try and make them all the same dimensions as an osage bow and see what happens. Simply put osage is superior because it takes less wood to make a great bow. If were talking strictly wood properties that way then osage is number one.
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Why would that alone make osage superior to all other woods, blackhawk? I agree that is a very fine bow wood and one of the best but it's not the only choice in town. In fact, as you know, it only grows in a very limited part of the US. I guess osage would be a good choice for people who like small bows but that's never really been an issue for me. The Native Americans in New England made a living with Black Locust and hickory bows and most of the Eastern Woodland bows were quite long. I finally got sucked into this thread.LOL. :) Jawge
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Ya must've missed my last sentence George...judging by tension,compression,and elastic properties alone its number one,and that's what allows it to be smaller than other bows. Make those others the same dimension and try to get the same bend with them and see what happens. Are they equal now?
We are past the point that design can make a lot of other woods equal to osage.
Even if you adjust your dimensions to make it equal in set loss and cast, I believe the majority of the time osage can take more abuses such as overdraw,being dinged,etc...make ten bows,all 50" long,5 of ash and 5 of osage and design both correct. Tiller all to 65@25". Now overdraw all those bows a couple inches+ repeatedly shooting them and see what happens. The osage will hold up better because it is stronger in tension,compression,and a higher elastic modulus.
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Well said blackhawk. Tension and compression and elactisity. The three words that describe Osage.
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Real data please!
Please tell me why this debate extends beyond the primitive function.
Data 60# osage 640 grain flint tipped arrow at 18 yards with double penetration and cutting through a rib. So please tell me why again why I need more FPS with a white wood? just thought I would get to the meat of the discussion.
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To say all woods are equal is just untrue...if they are all equal then try and make them all the same dimensions as an osage bow and see what happens. Simply put osage is superior because it takes less wood to make a great bow. If were talking strictly wood properties that way then osage is number one.
Is anyone saying all woods are equal??
Perhaps most hardwoods can make equal performance bows is more like it?
Osage can make dogs of bows just like any other. If the only factor is how much wood it takes to make a bow then ipe,greenheart and a few others will come out dimenisionally smaller for the same poundage as osage and that IS A FACT ;)
The other major factor when choosing a wood is how it's suited to the environment where it is going to be used.
My personal favourite might have to be elm. It will hold a lot of reflex when treated correctly, isn't overly dense hence doesn't need to be especially narrow in the outer limbs. It can make ANY design of bow. It grows here....Can be made into character bows. Is highly elastic (normally) and very strong in tension so will not break unless abused. It can take plenty of knocks. Good in compression and with a bit of heat treating is excellent.
Anyway we all seem to be going round in circles here and more or less agreeing with each other. The only way to settle all these arguments would be to arrange another mojam style get together and do some testing. I would gladly make a few bows that are the best I possibly can and send them over the pond to you guys for the testing.
If anybody else is up for it I propose starting a new thread where people who are interested can put their names in and organize it. Heck I might even buy a plane ticket and come.....it would be very nice to meet some of you fellas.
Also that 200fps at 10ggp challenge is still standing.....I personally don't think osage will be the wood used to beat it. I think a wood of around 0.6 - 0.7 sg is a more likely candidate.
Come on guys lets get it on!!!!
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Ya must've missed my last sentence George...judging by tension,compression,and elastic properties alone its number one,and that's what allows it to be smaller than other bows. Make those others the same dimension and try to get the same bend with them and see what happens. Are they equal now?
We are past the point that design can make a lot of other woods equal to osage.
Even if you adjust your dimensions to make it equal in set loss and cast, I believe the majority of the time osage can take more abuses such as overdraw,being dinged,etc...make ten bows,all 50" long,5 of ash and 5 of osage and design both correct. Tiller all to 65@25". Now overdraw all those bows a couple inches+ repeatedly shooting them and see what happens. The osage will hold up better because it is stronger in tension,compression,and a higher elastic modulus.
Design can compensate for all these factors.......osage is not magic ;) ;) ;)
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"Ya must've missed my last sentence George...judging by tension,compression,and elastic properties alone its number one,and that's what allows it to be smaller than other bows. Make those others the same dimension and try to get the same bend with them and see what happens. Are they equal now? "
Of course not, blackhawk. I said as much. I do love osage, too, but it doesn't grow on trees around here in the Granite State.
I wonder how osage would fare in a desert environment? I wonder if hickory would be far superior there? Now take that same hickory bow and bring it to FL. Rhetorical questions.
Availability and regional concerns are important.
A bowyer should not ever be past the point of design because that is the whole key to successful bowyering. That's where this discussion should end.
Those who like short bows should use osage. I don't like short bows because they stack badly and aren't good for my style of shooting. Give me a fairly long Eastern Woodland style bow and I'm happy.
Someone said above that the choice of bow wood is a really personal choice and I've made bows from many, many woods including yew, BL, white oak, red oak, elm, hop hornbeam, hickory, sassafras. maple, Aus. pine, chestnut, and osage. I think some others too.
The only thing I don't like about osage is it makes my workshop yellow. :)
Jawge
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I'm speaking from a controlled environment type testing tho. And not rhetorically. The three most important properties in bow wood IMO are tension,compression,and elasticity. Stack up all the bow woods in a controlled setting for testing and find out which one wins overall judging by those three categories. I'm bringing this up because its just another reason to the many reasons why I believe osage is best.
Mike I disagree with you,some woods will bend farther than others and you know it,its been proven in many controlled settings. Even if you design it to take the abuse of overdraw it will then be overbuilt too much.
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I need to send you a piece of Australian Pine, Blackhawk. It's down side is, it doesn't move at all from how it grows (from what I've found). But, in the categories your looking at; tension, compression, and elasticity, I'd wager Osage doesn't win. Just sayin...
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Who really cares.
I use Osage mainly simply because it's a lot local. I built bows from every kind of wood I could fine and get. Long before the internet it. Where now it so easy to broaden your bow building. Around hear tons of HICKORY,ELM, BL,HACKBERRIE. I've use a few others that are local.
I always have came back to OSAGE. Why it local and I love the color,working it and the color it turns as it ages. The smell and you can do just about ANTTHING to it and it still shoots a arrow. So what if people over build their bows. I do. I like the reflex look. But I think want it'd wort Osage cna't be beat.
And people that has used it for more than a couple bows see this.
Everyone got into building bows for what ever reason. Personally I want a custom long bow and did'nt have the money to buy one. So I built one, sure did'nt know it was going to led me down the trail I'm on or I'd started 20 years soon than I did.
Selfbows are surpose to be PRIMITIVE if you really want to get that tect. You need to start sanding and grinding LAMS or better yet have that compound in the bow press get the levels,tapes tool box. I can look over it it you use a band saw and sander. If for some reason you have to get that bow finished. But even then I don't conceder that very PRIMITIVE. But each his own.
I CAN JUST SEE A BUNCH ON INDAINS SETTING AROUND THE CAMP FIRE PASSING A BOW AROUND.
WELL IT'S NICE BUT IT'S WAY TO OVER BUILT. WHEN YOU GOING TO STOP USEING THAT OLD OSAGE AND USE A REAL WOOD.
End results the same over built OSAGE I built 15 years ago.
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This is a quote from Tim Baker on another property of osage.
"Properly made bows of the same length will be about the same thickness regardless of wood species or poundage, the lighter-wood bow merely wider per drawweight pound than the dense-wood bow. If the outer limb of the light-wood bow is made as narrow as can be for lateral stability, the dense-wood bow will have to be narrowed roughly in proportion to density if it's to be as mass efficient."
"So say a .40sg poplar bow is 1/2" wide five inches form its tip, and that if any narrower it would be unstable laterally. Now make a .80sg osage bow, same length, poundage, etc. To be as optimized as the poplar bow it will be 50% narrower. Osage is about 50% stiffer than poplar, but if the outer limbs are narrowed by 50%, something new comes into play: Reduce width and lateral stiffness reduces by a cubic function. If the poplar's outer limb was reduced in width by half it would become one-eighth as stiff. A wet noodle laterally. The osage's 50% extra stiffness would be insignificant; the outer limb would fold. This is why a best-designed osage bow will be slower than a best-designed lighter-wood bow. Can I get a high five for that explanation?"
Thoughts?
Ryan, back to your original post, is the second paragraph in quotes also Tim's words?
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Wheooo.The civil manner and sticking to points made are very good here.Most commentors must have been in the pits with an angry wife a time or two to learn such exceptional civil manners but getting their pont accross yet,but that's a different debatable subject.....LOL.
All I will say is hedge is not an inferior wood period to me,and that was the question asked in the very beginning.Personally I've never had a hedge bow break for me but a few whitewoods have hit the scrap pile from my learning curve of making bows.I know at MoJam the wood of choice for the beginners is hedge and I'm sure has started and addicted more bow makers than any other kind of wood.
Now as for performance heat treated hickory bows of mine do out perform a lot of my hedge bows.Lighter limbs I'm sure,but the best hunting type bow wood debate does encompass a very large picture.Just to fling an arrow at a range does not convince me at all.
In that light hedge gets my vote.
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Blackhawk, I'd say judging be tension, compression, elasticity and mass, Yew has the inside track. All those other properties should be assesed per unit mass.
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I need to send you a piece of Australian Pine, Blackhawk. It's down side is, it doesn't move at all from how it grows (from what I've found). But, in the categories your looking at; tension, compression, and elasticity, I'd wager Osage doesn't win. Just sayin...
Seriously ???
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Blackhawk, I'd say judging be tension, compression, elasticity and mass, Yew has the inside track. All those other properties should be assesed per unit mass.
Gabe...your then missing the point. I have given reason after reason why osage isn't inferior. I am debating that among all the bow woods it is not inferior,and inferior bow wood would be something like poplar :laugh: Out of all the reasons I have given,even if you don't think its number one in that specific category it still ranks at the top of the list in each category,and many that are debating against me even agree with that. So how can a wood that ranks tops in every category be at the bottom of the list? Osage is one of the best and in my opinion it is the best because it scores higher than any other in each category.
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I like osage so much, I'm willing to pay $50 per stave to have it shipped to Canada from places like Texas.
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I like osage so much, I'm willing to pay $50 per stave to have it shipped to Canada from places like Texas.
And in my book called "one million and one reasons why osage is a superior bow wood" that is reason number 745,891...lol... :laugh:
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I burned my whole pile of osage last night after reading this thread. Actually its still burning, stuff gets hot!!!!!
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Ryan you say you have to be convinced of hedge being a better hunting bow wood.I'm like you in that seeing is believing.Have you actually made a bow go through all of the rigors of day to day bracing,bangs and bumps,weather extremes etc. in a hunting season [I mean at least a month every day]to come to the conclusion you have.If so I don't blame you for saying what you say.If not try it once.
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Yup, the "Australian Pine" - Casuarina Equisetifolia is serious stuff. I once cut a 3/4" sapling and made a bow from it a week later. It is still shooting about 3 years later. Don't really think I ever posted it...but it's a real stickbow about 65" long or so. It looks like a toothpick but pulls 50# at 28". I still like Osage better for the sheer beauty, bending properties, humidity resistance, general 1st class performance properties, etc., etc., but it has it's own qualities. I need to get out and cut some new large diameter good pieces for testing, like this. I'll work on getting some cut soon and bandsawing it in pieces. It's gotta be the nastiest wood on the planet to split because it is the ultimate in interlocked grain. I promise, when I do, a stave has your name on it.
And, as far as firewood goes, I'm thinking that the Casuarina puts out more heat also. From what I've read it's one of the hottest burning woods in the world. It just doesn't burn as long as other woods...which makes sense...
Anyhow...I digress.
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Gordon, You make a very good point about wood thickness is similarly designed bows. But at the same time I've built osage bows that are thicker than whitewood bows with similar designs.
blackhawk, your points on tension, compression, and elasticity are all invalid because design can take all of those into account. *cough* my poplar bow *cough*. And technically, according to the mass principle, it takes the same amount of wood to make any bow. Perhaps you mean it takes less volume of osage to make a bow in which case I completely agree.
With regards to people saying that osage makes a superior hunting bow. The fact that many people have taken game with osage bows is a completely one sided argument considering that many more people make and hunt with them. For thousands of years civilizations have hunted with bows made from woods other than osage. Again, I'm not saying osage is inferior like the title suggests. But you'll have to prove to me that other hardwoods that are capable of making bows can't take the stresses of a hunting season. An explanation would be fantastic. I do admit that the poplar bow I made took a beating but I'm sure harder white woods could take a better beating. Make an osage bow with the grain runout that hickory can take. I dare you! >:D
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That polar board isnt a bow Ryan. Its a bent board that didnt break.
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Pearl Drums, The point is that wood can bend as far as other woods if designed properly. If I made the bow 50% wider and added a handle section then we wouldn't be having this argument. Why is it so difficult for you all to understand that? Also, that osage you burned better have been scrap. If it were staves then you should have sent them to me. ;D
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Reason number 265,432 why osage is one of the superior bow woods....
How many threads have we seen with questions like " what's your favorite wood" or "list your ten favorite woods".....if you have seen and remembered them all, there is a reoccurring theme to this very day and it hasn't changed...osage will be mentioned more times than ANY no matter what number you number it...how can it be inferior then? Oh..they all must be wrong.
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Properties of wood cant be argued. Applying those properties to a usable tool can be. I cant debate your numbers and I totally standunder what your saying, I can however debate them becoming a usable tool. 50% wider? Good Lord man! I dont believe they mill boards that wide!
If you have no osage and want a stave, its yours......even if you are a Sparty! I dont live far from you, so your welcome to stop by and grab one anytime. PM me if you want my address.
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blackhawk, if that logic were true then the earth is technically flat and is the center of the universe!
Pearl Drums, We should definitely meet up sometime. Maybe shoot a little and you can teach me all about why osage is king!
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My pleasure Ryan. Get with me after Christmas if you want to. I have a 17 yard range in the basement, so weather isnt a concern. And I have 9' ceilings so those extra long inferior white wood bows of yours wont hit the floor joists!
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Gordon, You make a very good point about wood thickness is similarly designed bows. But at the same time I've built osage bows that are thicker than whitewood bows with similar designs.
blackhawk, your points on tension, compression, and elasticity are all invalid because design can take all of those into account. *cough* my poplar bow *cough*. And technically, according to the mass principle, it takes the same amount of wood to make any bow. Perhaps you mean it takes less volume of osage to make a bow in which case I completely agree.
With regards to people saying that osage makes a superior hunting bow. The fact that many people have taken game with osage bows is a completely one sided argument considering that many more people make and hunt with them. For thousands of years civilizations have hunted with bows made from woods other than osage. Again, I'm not saying osage is inferior like the title suggests. But you'll have to prove to me that other hardwoods that are capable of making bows can't take the stresses of a hunting season. An explanation would be fantastic. I do admit that the poplar bow I made took a beating but I'm sure harder white woods could take a better beating. Make an osage bow with the grain runout that hickory can take. I dare you! >:D
OK Ryan you get up with me every day for a month at least at 5 AM.Then go back at 2 PM.For a total of 6 to 7 hours a day to hunt.You can do this yourself but it sounds like you hav'nt.That would be fantastic.
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Pearl while he visits go take this boy hunting and knock some sense in him,cus he told me before that he's never hunted
Ryan your point is invalid because we are talking bows and not 15th century thoughts....you have done nothing but proven osage is one of the superior bow woods,and haven't proven and refuted that it isn't yet.
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Man the world at flat,Dang I love this place,learn something new everyday. ;) ;D ;D ;D Thanks for keeping it civil guys.Great bunch. :)
I will check in in the morning,I feel sure it will still be going on. :)
Pappy
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Pearl, Sounds good man!
Beadman, If I get to sleep at 2pm I'm in. ;D
Blackhawk, my point is valid because all three can be scientifically proved. To say osage is better because it can can bend farther than other woods at higher weights is invalid because other woods can be designed to do the same thing. If a wood isn't as elastic then it'll need to be thinner and wider. If it's less dense then wider still. Compression or tension strong? Appropriate trapping. Osage is great wood, don't get me wrong, but to say its better for certain reasons when it's not is bogus.
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Man the world at flat,Dang I love this place,learn something new everyday. ;) ;D ;D ;D Thanks for keeping it civil guys.Great bunch. :)
I will check in in the morning,I feel sure it will still be going on. :)
Pappy
Yup..the earth she's a round pappy...and I'm sure it will still be going on,cus I will do my duty and defend OUR king until the day I day...;)
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I have a question for the people that aren't crazy about osage. Does it grow locally around you? I think location has as much to do with a persons view on bow wood as about anything else. If you are covered up with osage I bet that will be your preferred choice. I think the same would go for other types of trees also. If you have an abundance of one type of wood available, you are probably going to build more bows from that than anything else. You will probably experiment and push the limits with it more than you would with something else thats hard to come by. I love HHB but I don't have any around me so I have to trade for it. I'm not going to push the envelope when I use it because I don't want to risk breaking one of the few staves that I have. Now I'm blessed to live in an osage forest so if I break a piece of that, no big deal. I'll just grab another piece and move on. So at the end of the day if I look at all of my bows and see that the best performers are osage, is it because it is superior wood, or is it because of my location and its availability? :-\ I don't know, its just another view to a question that might not have an answer.
And thanks guys, this thread has really kept me entertained for the last couple of days :)
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I definitely don't think Osage is an inferior bow wood, for many categories of how we measure bow wood, especially in the mechanical properties of wood category.
I just think that when it comes to the "King", across many categories its hard to argue that anything beats Yew wood for making bows. The only place yew wood loses is (1) easily available and (2) using your bow as a baseball bat.
Per unit mass, Yew tends to have higher elastic strength than Osage, while rupture strength and crushing strength are basically a wash per unit mass between them.
Gabe
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Ryan..you have already said osage is great,and I love osage..and it even tops your top ten list..and to me its as simple as this...your trying to debate osage is inferior ....how can you say those things after when your trying to debate that its inferior? Your not making any sense ,if it was inferior it wood be at the bottom of your list, not the top no matter what number you give it.
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Good point OO but this is not the case here.I think he has had good success making some exceptional bows and wants to rewrite the Bowyers Bible series of books requoting the same things said,but with his name on it along with the other authors.Just an observation.....LOL.
There is'nt much out there that has'nt been done before thanks to a lot of the people on this forum.Ryan included........LOL.
A lot of what you are asking to be proven you have to do it yourself Ryan.
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This thread has suffered from a "burden of proof" disagreement. Some folks seem to think the burden of proof is on the Osage guys to show that it is superior, other seems to think the burden of proof is on the other guys to show that Osage is inferior.
Its a hell of a lot easier to show that Osage is NOT inferior than it is to show that it is, in fact, superior to other woods.
I wish poplar had never been part of this though. It just muddied the waters. You can't "design your way" into a very practical hunting weapon with a lot of woods, for most of the hunting styles that bow hunter use. Maybe in the performance category, design is king, but in the 'real world' category wood choice makes a ton of difference. Its hard to hunt with a 76" long bow in most places in North America. Hence, our ancestors (who knew more about bows than this whole site times a million) carefully picked the wood they chose to make bows. Ishi, may have said (and I paraphrase) "any old stick will work for a bow" but given the choice he picked mountain juniper, right?. Hmmm..
"While living at the museum, Ishi made bows from many different woods, but his favorite material for the bows he lived by was mountain juniper (T. Kroeber: 189). He told the anthropologists that other tribes used yew, and he knew the leaves were poisonous to eat (Heizer and T. Kroeber: 175)."
Gabe
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Blackhawk, like I've said in previous posts, the title was mostly to start the discussion. Osage is anything but inferior but to say its better than other woods because other woods can't bend the way Osage does is completely invalid. This conversation was started because I wanted a good discussion on the importance of design with any wood. Also I've worked with less than ten species of wood so it was inevitable! ;D
OO, that's a good point but favorites are favorites. What I don't agree with is the definition of what makes a better bow which I don't think has much to do with availability. I've never used a lot of woods but I'm sure they all make excellent bows.
Beadman, can't say I haven't considered it! I wouldn't start a discussion like this if I didn't feel it was important. I'm no innovator and I don't claim to be. I simply feel its important to spread the ideas that I preach. Like a Bowyer Missionary!
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I definitely don't think Osage is an inferior bow wood, for many categories of how we measure bow wood, especially in the mechanical properties of wood category.
I just think that when it comes to the "King", across many categories its hard to argue that anything beats Yew wood for making bows. The only place yew wood loses is (1) easily available and (2) using your bow as a baseball bat.
Per unit mass, Yew tends to have higher elastic strength than Osage, while rupture strength and crushing strength are basically a wash per unit mass between them.
Gabe
Awesome Gabe..I love yew too ;)..and it tops my "top" list of superior woods
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There is no burden of proof on anyone because all of this is subjective. Terms like "better", "inferior", and "excellent" are all qualitative and the characteristics of a good bow wood are highly personal and subject to one's taste and region. Terms like osage is a better bow wood sound like what I hear on commercials. That's why I avoid threads like this. One of my $8 board bows is capable of shooting further than any osage or other stave bow because it has no crown. Easy with the poplar. I made one too and it did well for25o shots and then it exploded. Jawge
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Good points Scott.
This is anecdotal but,
Low elevation stuff seems prone to trouble under 20 F. High elevation stuff grows where its usually under 20F anyway, and seems to do better.
I've never hunted with yew wood bows in very dry climates either. I've heard osage suffers in dry climates also though.
I think a lot of it has to do with the climate you built it in. Say, you optimize your bow based on a wet or dry climate. Than you move to a different climate, your bow could suffer.
Here's a good quote from PP with names blocked out for privacy:
"When I got to hunt elk with A and B and C in" (a dry part of ) "Oregon a couple years ago, both A and B had spontaneous bow failures. A's was made of yew, and B's was sinew backed osage. B's design was highly stressed (long draw, heavy weight, shorter bow). Both bows would likely have survived to return to more humid climates if they had been weather sealed better."
So, few woods are immune to the effect of climate.
Gabe
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Pearl, Sounds good man!
Beadman, If I get to sleep at 2pm I'm in. ;D
Blackhawk, my point is valid because all three can be scientifically proved. To say osage is better because it can can bend farther than other woods at higher weights is invalid because other woods can be designed to do the same thing. If a wood isn't as elastic then it'll need to be thinner and wider. If it's less dense then wider still. Compression or tension strong? Appropriate trapping. Osage is great wood, don't get me wrong, but to say its better for certain reasons when it's not is bogus.
No.......that's when you go back out to hunt till dark and old hedge will be ready and waiting.Like a good coondog.
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Jawge, You make an excellent point. I think I forgot to mention I was talking about long target bows this whole time!
Beadman, That statement has no empirical value. Wood does not wait nor is its performance affected by the position of the sun. What empirical evidence is there to say that a good white wood bow would be more sluggish than a good osage bow at the end of the day?
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We are running out of humor now.I'm just getting started.If my humor goes over your head it's not my fault.
Osage has always been proven and known as being a quick wood.Not all but most.That's because it recovers quickly from being braced 3 to 4 hours.If you would know this you would'nt ask about it.Yes I've proven that to myself many a time using whitewoods against hedge.
Don't care whether you believe me or not.You'll have to find out for yourself.As this theme has been from the beginning.
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Beadman, you can say anything happens because you've seen it happen in your experiences. But without an explanation it means nothing. If you can't answer the why with anything but "just because" then you don't know the answer either.
EDIT: I do have to apologize as I am probably the worst person on the planet at detecting subtle humor and sarcasm over digital messaging.
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Thought that was obvious with my statement.Hedge is a superior wood and God made it maybe you could ask him.It has qualities overall that are superior.
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Beadman, Why? What makes osage superior? It's snappiness? What makes it more snappy than other woods if it even is? Why does it recover more quickly if it even does so? I could keep going. The point is that all these questions can be answered with a scientific explanation. Because it's osage just doesn't cut it.
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I take it for what it is.I'm not an engineer or physicist.In fact those guys can't agree either.Let me know when you find out.I'll buy your book but.....it won't change my mind from what type of wood I'll grab because it does'nt make a difference in my book.Do you think the Indians asked themselves these questions around the campfire?Neccessity is the mother of invention and convenience and ease of construction contribute to help her.
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If your mind can't be changed then there's no point in ever entering a discussion with you. I'm not saying people can't have their favorite woods but we shouldn't make claims that aren't supported by evidence. In fact I do think native americans and peoples of any archery culture asked these questions. In fact I'd be willing to spell out a hypothetical conversation they might have had.
"What about that tree? Can we make bows from that?"
"That tree produces wood the color of gold and hard as a rock. Too much work and we can make good hunting bows from plenty of other woods. Why bother."
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I just could'nt resist throwing my two cents worth in. I have read about 7 pages of the earlier part of this discussion and decided I would comment.
I'm not near smart enough to even consider the issues on a physics level. Or maybe I should say
I'm too lazy mentally to try and apply myself to that understanding. I do however really appreciate the minds that some of you guys have and the way you are wired. It seems some people don't have to do the mental gymnastics to grasp these concepts and it comes with more ease. I have however benefited from considering the concepts presented regarding design, mass etc... Having considered these things I have drawn a few conclussions that I am confortable with to use as a basis for how I do my bows.
I think that Steve "Badger"s mass theory has merit in terms of optimizing effeciency when the mass is properly distributed throughout the bow. I like to make a bow that is not overbuilt but also not on the edge of destruction either. I don't need to make it the fastest bow around. I need to make it fast enough, without sacrificing durablity. I personally prefer bows around 60" long that will pull around 50# at my 26.5" draw length. I like to make my limbs moderatly narrow in the last 1/3 so as to gain as much cast as I can without sacrificing stability. I prefer to shoot a little heavier arrow (10gr per pound or a little more), so as to harvest as much of the energy stored in the limbs and therefore get good penetration and less of a bump on release. I like to have a bow that is light in the hand, balances well and draws smooth with little or no stack. I want it to be a pleasant expreience everytime I shoot it. For the most part thats what I am able to achieve these days.
Osage orange is what I have the most to work with and so I am very fond of it. I am fully convinced that it has the greatest combination of attributes that are conducive to making a bow such as I described above, time in and time out. I have tried to make good bows with hickory but over time they get sluggish due to the humidity. I have recently worked with Hackberry and find it pretty agreeable but I think I like the way osage recieves and retains its shape when trying to make heat correction in it. I am not impressed with red oak but I have only tried a couple. Mulberry is pretty good but the few I have done with it were not as dense as I would like I think I will try it again soon. My opinion is you can make a bow out of many different kinds of woods but for me, osage orange is just darn hard to beat. It does well in tension, compression, takes heat corrections with ease, is durable unlike so many others, does not get sluggish in high humidity, can get thrown around in the back of the truck and get a few nicks here and there and still be a sound bow. For me, If I was gonna make a bow that I needed to last me for the rest of my life and not worry about it in any condition, it will be osage.
I know I am biased and that I really have'nt tried a lot of different kinds of woods, but I don't need to, cuz I'm in love with the yellar wood and have plenty of it.
It is also excellent for heating and cooking, although my favorite combination for grilling over the open fire is a base of osage coals and then throw in a few semi green mulberry logs and you have a heat and flavor combination that is imparted to the meat that you can't beat at even the most high dollar restaraunts. We eat like kings around our campfires I can assure you.
So there is my two cents worth. Danny
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Danny, If white woods aren't making bows in the style you want then it's a design problem not a wood problem. I recently made a hickory bow that was 60" and 45#@26" and has retained its reflex. Another 5# and half and inch of draw length would be no problem. Humidity is also not a wood problem. Get white woods to low enough humidity and they will have excellent performance. Sounds like you know what you're doing though. Go ahead and make your yellow bows but don't say white woods won't do the same.
Update: I shot the poplar bow. Quite snappy and was able to create a bruise formerly known as my forearm!
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I have recently worked with Hackberry and find it pretty agreeable but I think I like the way osage recieves and retains its shape when trying to make heat correction in it.
Hackberry steam bends better than any wood I have ever tried. Try steam, it works better and is safer for the bow.
Mulberry is pretty good but the few I have done with it were not as dense as I would like I think I will try it again soon.
Thats one of the good features of mulberry, is that although it is very light, it is still reasonably exceptable in compression. So it will make a very qucik and snappy bow. Traditional yumis were made of mulberry. I would not think the horn bowyers would of used it for siyahs in there horn bows either, if it was very dense, as that would be counter productive.
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It's not that my mind can't be changed.My evidence is right in front of me here.You hav'nt seen it but still asking why.Pull some more shavings and find out.There is a distinct disconnection to that point that is not addressed.
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Nice of you to drop by Danny...sit down awhile and stick around for the conversation. ;)
What I liked best about what Danny said and SOOOOO many others have echoed before is that if he had to make one bow to last him the rest of his life and not worry about it in any condition it wood be osage. That speaks volumnes in my opinion.
Ryan the answer is actually that easy..it is "just because"..your making this too complicated..its because it has been proven by many unofficially and officially that it is def a top three superior wood for bows. Its because ash is not osage,its because poplar isn't osage...they don't have the same properties,they were not made equally,and designing them to make the same bend doesn't make them the same. Your thinking in a tea cup called design only.
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"What about that tree? Can we make bows from that?"
"That tree produces wood the color of gold and hard as a rock. Too much work and we can make good hunting bows from plenty of other woods. Why bother."
That would be an interesting conversation except.. didn't the lots of NAs near to the native range of Osage (and beyond due to trade) tribe make their bows out of Osage?
I don't know how credible this source is but...
From the Misourri Dept of COnservation website:
http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/1995/11/enduring-osage-orange
"But early explorers, like Marquette and Joliet, did find the trees growing near Osage Indian villages. And it was from the branch wood of the Osage orange tree that the Indians made their highly prized bows. Osage orange bow blanks and finished bows were prime items of barter among the tribes. One early report said a well balanced bow was worth a "comely young squaw" in trade. Another said that in the early 1800s the price of a good Osage orange bow was a horse and a blanket. Tribal wars were fought for possession of lands generously supplied with Osage orange trees".
I sure wouldn't fight a land war about access to bow wood that sucked.
Gabe
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My personal opinion is that if a different bow wood blows your skirt up then by all means use it. I will make bows from other woods, its just that most of the time, I'm grabbing a hedge stick.
Toomanyknots...thanks for the encouragement on the hackberry and the mulberry. I still have some nice staves of these in the shed so they will get worked for sure. I will say this about hackberry at least around these parts, there is more straight hack than hedge thats for sure and it cures out alot quicker.
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Blackhawk, thanks for the invite, Ill be lurking. Danny
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blackhawk, you say osage is superior because it can do things that other woods can't is where I have the problem. Just because they don't have the same properties doesn't mean one is better than the other. That's where design comes into play.
rossfactor, thats awesome to know. Thank you for sharing that. I bet a good bow of any wood was a valuable item in those times.
Osage guys, how did the native american tribes without access to osage survive for so long? ???
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Survive.......LOL.They were over powered by osage toting indians and the white man with his gun of course........LOL.Then they ate government soured up beef and pork on the reservation.
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i think the entire argument truly comes down to two points. one: does the bow do what you intended it to do? two: are you satisfied and happy with it? if the answer is yes to both of these, then does the wood choice/ design argument really matter? that being said, i think EVERY wood and EVERY design has advantages and drawbacks. the true lesson is that one without the other is nothing at all. you need a wood suited to the design you intend to use, and likewise a design suited to the wood you intend to use. beyond that, it is up to the craftsman to make it work, because wood will not make itself into a bow.
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Beadman, I'm surprised the osage bows weren't able to rise up against guns!
twilightandmist, Here's why I think it's important. I think more often than not, beginners are thrust into an osage is king world. As a beginner, chances are that you'll break your first bow or it'll be a piece of crap. I actually hold the record for worst first bow ever. The old timers that teach newcomers thrust an osage stave into their hands and teach them to make a bow from it. Osage is very forgiving. Because of its strength and density, it can easily be overbuilt and make a working bow even if the skill level is not great. So when a beginner makes an osage bow they may think that its a lot better than other woods which is simply not the case. Everyone is entitled to have their favorite woods but, for me, I'd like bow making to encompass the whole spectrum of woods, designs, cultures, etc. And the only way we can do that is by teaching and emphasizing the principles of bow making. I am extremely passionate about this hobby we all share (as I'm sure everyone can tell) and I want to see the variety that makes making primitive wooden bows such a fun and fascinating hobby.
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guns only work because they can be reloaded faster now and take no skill to fire decently, on the other hand, a bow had shorter range and was in need of skill to be used properly, although before guns really took off bows were still faster rates of fire.
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very true, ryoon. very true. my personal favorite wood to work with is black cherry, harvested locally. but it can be a challenge, as i tend to shy away from backing bows. glue hates me, i cant even get a riser to stay glued on. my only successful glue experiences are 1 sinew backed bow and a single pair of glued up tips. and my first working bow was a black walnut elb. it still works, though i have no idea how. it bends almost nowhere but the handle, and has rather large chrysals all over the belly.
on the note of overbuilding, there are some whitewoods that this can be done with as well. hickory, to name one. I am by no means an osage snob, far from it actually, i love working whitewoods. but i can't get my hands on anything consistently good around here other than the occasional cherry tree. but i must admit, osage makes the job easier. on the other hand, if bowmaking wasnt challenging, then what pleasure would we derive from doing it? I do it for the love of it, not the specs.
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<snip>...guys, how did the native american tribes without access to osage survive for so long? ???
Apparently they traded off all their comely daughters for good Osage staves! Now, I have only a limited understanding of genetics, but if this were the case for an extended period of time, wouldn't we have to expect to find that over time all the tribes that controlled access to good Osage would become very good looking? ...While the other tribes would become progressively uglier? ::) :P :-[ :-*
OneBow
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twilight, if your black cherry bow has a pristine back then try trapping in towards the belly. I'd love to try my hand at a black cherry bow. And technically any bow wood can be over built! Its just easier to overbuild with dense woods.
OneBow, between now and then the definitions of beauty and attractiveness have somewhat reversed. Explains a lot about those osage guys. ;)
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i think it boils down to the challenge that is overcome when they finish a bow. A knotty osage with tons of snake can become a bow, and because they were able to tame it and turn it into a beautiful bow it becomes "supreme" ::) true the wood is amazing, but there is a sense of pride there that you cant shake from them, they will hold onto it until the day they die 8) Its like when i tried to argue that my car beat someone else's because of the fact it road into the finish line gracefully, even if they beat me by a few seconds.(im talking about matchbox and such.) there is a sense of pride in what youve put stock into, so basically weather or not its better isn't necessarily the matter. I know that you all should know what im talking about( i hope ::) ) and in many cases there will be osage beating other bows, its just too big a factor and too much pride in the materials you are familiar with to say otherwise :P dont worry im prone to this same issue ::)
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Ryan, your Mojam bow you postes was 1.5" at the fades tapering to 1.25" at mid limb, and then to 3/8" tips. If that same character stave you started with was hackberry or hickory, would you have made it the same dimensions?
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zip LOL. ::) though hopefully i will have one done by this upcoming summer. Im just saying, looking at how humans behave when they have accomplished something great, like taming a bad stave, they are very proud! i would be if i had done some of the bows on this forum. I am just making speculations on what others seem to do. :laugh: could be wrong (i have been know to be wrong ::) ) but can you honestly say you wouldn't have an ounce of pride to tame a stave like "Black Hole" one of the recent bows of the month? if you can then you have me beat ;D
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iconicmuffin, thats very true. There's nothing quite like a snakey osage stave. Although snakey bows tend to carry more mass in their limbs and as a result are usually slower.
Osage Outlaw, of course not. That's a silly question. :P
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that proves my point then, weather or not it's better is not the question. It's about how much "better" it is to the user/maker ::)
Some of what they say about it being better could very well be true, not going to say they are wrong, just pointing out that if someone who swears by hickory alone and another by sage alone, both bows are evenly matched in all ways(arrowspeed, majesty, arrow pen ect)[theoretical... just sayin] Then who do you think will think whose bow will be better? lets name them Hickory and Sage. :laugh:
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Why not? Why whould you have changed the dimensions?
I don't think its a silly question.
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OO, sorry. I thought you already knew what I was going to say. In fact, I made a hickory bow of almost the exact same specs recently. 68" ntn, 40#@28", 10" handle. Hickory being less dense than osage I made it wider by about 20%. I just weighed them and there's less than a 1oz difference in mass.
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Ryan answer me this question...
Do you believe if a wood is made to the mass principle correctly, it is of proper design? Simple yes or no answer please
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So it took a little less osage to make the same bow?
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Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
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Dictionary, I... AM YOUR FATHER!
blackhawk, I believe if bows are built to the mass principle correctly that they should perform well. So if that means they are designed well then yes I do believe that. Not quire sure what your retort is going to be but I'm all ears. ::)
OO, The volume was less but the amount of wood (cellulose, lignin) was the same.
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I love making bows from all types of wood and all types of different designs. I am not an osage snob and osage only guy. And I do believe the same about the mass principle,and do use it as a general gauge if what I'm building is under or overbuilt and if I need to adjust my intended weight if coming in to light,or reducing sides if too heavy. If that's what you believe then how come you can say mine or Danny's bows were not designed correctly? Why have we and so many others that use other woods come to the same conclusion about hedge? In my experiences that match others here,I have a much better success with producing a long lasting durable bow using osage than other woods. In my experience osage has had a much more consistent,proven,and almost never fails track record when compared to other woods even when they are designed n made per the mass formula,which according to you is a properly designed bow. There's so much more to it than just design.
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;D
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blackhawk, the reason I say they weren't designed properly is because they broke. ANY bow wood will bend to a certain shape if it's thin enough. ANY bow wood will draw a certain weight if it's wide enough. These two properties of wood tell us that we can design a bow to do just about anything we want. You have yet to provide any explanation to answer why osage can do these things and other woods can't. Even if it is stronger in compression and tension, and more elastic, other woods can be designed to do the same work. The problem with your reasoning is that it means there's a LIMIT that other bow woods have that are below osage. This is simply not true.
Many of you think that poplar bow is silly and completely missed the point that it makes. It was made thin enough to bend to the radius for a 25" draw and wide enough for a 50# draw weight. There is no limit to what wood can do. The boundaries lie within the users tastes, not the wood.
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"OO, The volume was less but the amount of wood (cellulose, lignin) was the same. "
How do you know that? Just because you say its so doesn't make it right. I need proof ;D
Why not make a 60" long, 50#@28" bend through the handle bow out of osage and out of a couple of different white woods using whatever dimensions to maximize the woods potential. All having the same tiller. Then cut an inch off of each bow and keep draw it to 28" again. Record weight and set. Keep reducing an inch at a time until they break. I would be curious to see the results no matter what they are.
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I don't have to give you a "classroom" scientific explanation...I and many others have given you our real world experiences because we use our bows what they were made to do,and you do not. This discussion is going to go on for a long time untill you gain some real world experiences and use a bow for what it was invented for. And what I've learned in life experiences are most the time a more important lesson then some classroom explanation. I caught you contradicting yourself here with the mass theory argument and you can't admit it. According to you mine and Danny's bows were designed wrong and right...so which is it?
If you ever do start to use a bow for what it was invented for you will understand better. Now some guys with lots of experience will try and still say a red oak board is the same as an osage stave,but the majority of guys who have gone thru the use of using many different woods come to the same conclusion as me that in the real world uses osage is the choice for many. Even guys that say all woods are same if designed accordingly will grab and depend on a stick of hedge when its time to go to the battlefield.
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OO, I guess there was less wood in the osage. The reason it weighed the same is because of the extra magic in the limbs. That would be interesting to see. If all bows are built perfectly, then theoretically the thickness is just enough to not take much set in the initial build. Cutting an inch off each tip would put more stress on the remaining wood and tiller would most likely be off. My guess is, tension strong woods like hickory would take massive set before breaking. The only reason I think osage would break earlier is because it's more well balanced in tension and compression, if I'm not mistaken.
Scott D, I'll give you the chance to reread your last post and think about what you said. Don't make me get Badger in here. >:D
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Blackhawk, is target shooting not considered a real world use anymore? ??? Without seeing the bows you and Danny made, no one on here including me, knows for sure whether or not your bows were built properly according to the mass principle. The fact of the matter is that they broke and properly designed bows don't break. Your first person experience means nothing if not backed up by more evidence. The properties of wood that I've mentioned have been backed up by evidence and it's been proven time and time again that the mass principle works. The fact that you bring the bows use into this has no impact on the woods ability to make a good bow. If people really wanted to hunt with bows made from other species of wood I'm sure they'd have great success.
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Scott D, I'll give you the chance to reread your last post and think about what you said. Don't make me get Badger in here. >:D
Badger built nothing but several osage bows when we were at the Tennessee classic..hmmm? Wonder why >:D
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Keep up the good work, my friends. This has been a good civil, discussion. I hope it will continue. Jawge
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Scott D, You'd have to ask him yourself. The properties of wood that I keep restating are proven, not just by bowyers, but are an understanding of material science. They are facts that we know about wood where you and blackhawk's individual claims mean that wood has particular limits which have no evidence to exist. Both of you still have yet to provide an explanation to your broken bows other than "just because". My poplar bow is an excellent example of how we can change wood dimensionally to get it bending the way we desire.
blackhawk, I do the same thing at MOJam. Its nice to work different woods every once in a while and I bet he doesn't get much osage in Cali.
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Scott D, of course they can but that's not what you or blackhawk are saying. Neither of you have said that your bows broke due to defects or cold or other problems. You've both blamed the wood species which is completely unfounded. Osage is a great bow wood for those reasons but it doesn't necessarily make better bows because of it.
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I hate speaking for someone else...but its because he believes its one of the best,if not the best...
I agree with Scottd...the burden of proof is on you...how can I make you understand my point and reasons when you don't think I'm telling you the truth...I hate having to repeat myself...I have a much better chance of success,consistency,and proven track record making a long lasting real world used bow with osage than I do with using a lot of other woods,and I make all of mine at proper design and mass. Why is that Ryan?
And quit calling that "thing" a bow.
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"I have a question for the people that aren't crazy about osage. Does it grow locally around you? "
Here is a photo of an old growth osage from my main osage spot:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Cutting%20osage%20pictures/PICT0032001_0001.jpg)
It doesn't look like it in this picture, but it is actually a huge tree. The woods around there are like 50 percent osage. If I wanted, every bow I make could be osage. Although, I never said I wasn't crazy about osage at all. I'm crazy about basically all bow wood. Anyway, I thought I would share some of my own personal thoughts. So, to tastelessly rehash what Mike Keswick, Ryoon, I think George too, and probably a bunch of other people on here might have said in so many words, I will get all crazy and quote a paragraph from the book of five rings:
"In the construction of houses, choice of woods is made. Straight un-knotted timber of good appearance is used for the revealed pillars, straight timber with small defects is used for the inner pillars. Timbers of the finest appearance, even if a little weak, is used for the thresholds, lintels, doors, and sliding doors, and so on. Good strong timber, though it be gnarled and knotted, can always be used discreetly in construction. Timber which is weak or knotted throughout should be used as scaffolding, and later for firewood."
So in other words, if the bow wood is too dense to allow for a brilliant cast, than make the bow shorter. If the Bow wood is very light, than take advantage of it to increase cast. If the wood is not as compression strong, make it wider. If the wood is very compression strong, than take advantage of it by heavily reflexing it, and creating higher early draw weight. I agree with whoever said in this thread that design trumps species. I believe that human innovation has the potential to overcome subtle differences in traits and qualities of bow woods in general, and overcome short falls that this or that species may have, to result in high performance bows of most any of the typical known bow woods. And I don't think that there is any "best" bow wood, (never tried yew, so I might be wrong), but I think even osage has negatives, that you have to work around. Like I said in the other thread, density just don't equal fps. In fact, I get better shooting bows alot of the time out of woods that have been condemned as lesser bow woods. My silver maple longbows shoot 1000 times better than my osage longbows. Mostly because of it's dramaticly light weight when compared to osage. You say that osage takes less mass to make a bow than other woods. But for what you trade in less mass, you gain back in more weight, specifically detrimental outer limb weight, than the other guy would have. So what fps you might gain from a narrower bow, you might just end up losing again due to excessive density? Blackhawk and Pearl, neither of you can truthfully say that osage is the end all of all bow wood when because of it's density, it will make a handshocky sluggish longbow when compared to lighter woods, and even more so in a warbow (in selfbow form in both cases of course). Are longbows not legitimate bows in your guy's worlds? But you know what would make a nice shooting longbow? Basically any fairly light, so - so bow wood. Woods like silver maple will make a nice shooting longbow... silver maple, which would make a horrible flatbow chrysaled to heck and back in the same design of an osage flatbow. Osage does have it's negative qualities like all things in life. It is the responsibility of the bowyer to effectively make use of his bow wood, it is not the responsibility of the wood.
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Also, random cool moth. For no reason at all, ;D:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Cutting%20osage%20pictures/PICT0033003_0001.jpg)
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blackhawk, Like I said, well designed bows don't break for no reason and you have yet to provide one other than "just because".
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Scott, Sorry. I grouped you two together and I apologize. You're allowed to like osage. Nothing wrong with that. But when you claim osage is better at certain things you better have backup because it's not about belief. These things are measurable and empirical and the truth doesn't care what you believe.
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Too many...please find a quote from me that says osage is the end all wood....your misunderstanding and misinterpreting what I am saying. If I thought that you would see nothing but osage bows being posted by me. Re read where I said I love making all types of bows from all types of wood.
Ryan that is a fallacy...were using wood,and were human,and both are imperfect,and wood bows break even if properly designed,stored in proper conditions,properly tillered,and executed perfectly,and then properly set in a safe place when finished,used in the right conditions only,and never banged around etc........
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Scott D, I completely agree. I think we're on the same page just trying to argue different points.
blackhawk, think about what you just said please. Still no reason provided.
Anyone else understand the point I'm trying to make and want to chime in? I think I'm probably not explaining myself well.
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"There is no limit to what wood can do. The boundaries lie within the users tastes, not the wood."
I do not believe this is true.
For example you couldn't have made your poplar bow 50" long and 1 inch wide, and gotten the same draw length and width. The bow would have broke. And if you needed a bow 50" long and 1 inch wide you would have to use a different wood. Regardless of your taste in design. And for many people who survived with bows that had NEEDS, not just tastes for design. End of story.
Gabe
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I mean "they" had needs, not "that" had needs. Sorry.
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Apparently your not speaking clearly..cus read what you just said..you said that a well designed bow won't break...that's a bunch of malarkey
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"There is no limit to what wood can do. The boundaries lie within the users tastes, not the wood."
I do not believe this is true.
For example you couldn't have made your poplar bow 50" long and 1 inch wide, and gotten the same draw length and width. The bow would have broke. And if you needed a bow 50" long and 1 inch wide you would have to use a different wood. Regardless of your taste in design. And for many people who survived with bows that had NEEDS, not just tastes for design. End of story.
Gabe
YESSSSS!!!!!!! I think your now understanding me Gabe ;)
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Me?
I don't think I said that.
Gabe
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No Ryan said that a well designed bow won't break
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No revelations here Blackhawk. Just typing what I've though for a long time. Been making bow for only 10 years, but that's enough time to stew on ths stuff a bit. :) I still don't worship your yellow King. >:D But I'd like to try it a few more times.
Gabe
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Rossfactor, what i mean is the degree to which we can get wood to bend, not specifying dimensions. I don't think you understand what I'm saying either.
blackhawk, I'm waiting for a reason. A well designed bow won't break. If it breaks it's not well designed. Unless of course you were going for firewood.
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Too many...please find a quote from me that says osage is the end all wood...
Gee, ok:
"Anyways...I'm out and don't need to explain myself anymore even tho much more can be said...I know osage is best. <------ that's a period"
From page 3 of this thread, in your 3rd post from the top, right here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36150.30.html
Also, you never answered me, you said on page 2 ",and can make ANY design out there and do it well," So, is a warbow not a legitimate bow in your world? Since osage is the best wood, does it also make the best warbows?, that aren't handshocky, or sluggish at all?
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Well, I understand the that we can get wood to all wood to bend about the same amount given design modification. But for bows to meet peoples NEEDs, dimensions are sometimes important.
If we have 20 pages of thread arguing that lighter woods need to be wider to bend the same amount, we should all be ashemed of ourselves. ;)
And if we can get 5 or 10 fps more from well designed bow with a lighter wood, that doesn't make it a better bow wood necessarily to meet someones needs.
That is why I said, way back somewhere that first you gotta define what you need your bow to do before you build it. But depending on that answer, design is only part of the equation.
Gabe
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TMK, in defense of the point I'm trying to make, osage can indeed make a good warbow without handshock. Because of it's density it would need to be more elliptically tillered than lighter woods so there's less moving mass. Because of osage's density it can make great warbows.
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ross, thats very true but design can take those important dimensions into account. Just because my poplar bow didn't have a handle, doesn't mean it couldn't. I was challenged to make it bend through out its length so I had to adjust accordingly.
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You got a lot more bows to make if you honestly think the sole reason alone a bow breaks is because it was not designed correctly.
And I've already given you umpteen reasons,and so has a lot of other folks...if ya want the rest you'll have to buy my book cus I can't disclose any more information. :laugh:
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TKM, in defense of the point I'm trying to make, osage can indeed make a good warbow without handshock. Because of it's density it would need to be more elliptically tillered than lighter woods so there's less moving mass. Because of osage's density it can make great warbows.
Woah, that was just your 666th post,... Hmmmm, wonder if that means anything... >:D Anyhoo, osage is (I guess IMO) a horrible choice for a warbow. In a triple laminate I can see it being put to good use. But as a selfbow bow, it is just all kinds of dense. For heavier bows it can take the compression for sure, but handshock and fps loss is just inescapable no matter how much you reduce outer mass, till the dang thing is just whip tillered even. I think an elliptical tiller can be a good choice for a light draw weight longbow. An elliptical tiller will slightly reduce handshock, but then stack will be the result, that in lesser weights would not be noticeable, and stack is definitely not to be desired in a warbow. It will also end up taking more set than an even bending and even working bow. You really think for a 32" draw, you should keep the handle stiff? I'm not saying you can't get an alright longbow in general out of osage, I have 3 in the works right now, ridiculously, but these 3 longbows all have more than 3" reflex, that will add a bit of umph to the early draw weight to make up for things. And although I love my osage longbows, they never shoot as good as my mulberry, silver maple, hackberry, even ash, longbows. Yes, even ash, 2 1/2" of set and all. I can make a hackberry longbow that will smoke the living crap out of any osage longbow you could make at the same draw weight, and that is NOT a challenge, because I know you would take me up on that right away, ;D. Anyway, my main argument was simply that osage was not the king of bow woods in all scenarios, such as, a warbow, not that you couldn't make a warbow out of it.
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I've never sad that the only reason a bow breaks is because of improper design. I said that if a bow is designed perfectly then it won't break. You claimed that your bows were designed to the best of your abilities and they still broke. If the reason wasn't poor design then what was it? What you're saying is that a near perfect bow broke. What was the flaw if it wasn't design? It didn't have to do with the properties of the wood because those can be accounted for in design. My guess is you weren't making them as well as you thought you were.
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But, I think I do see and agree with the point you are trying to make Ryoon. It has been kind of hard to keep track of all the conversation in this thread for me. But if you were saying that regardless of who the king of bow woods is, that design is the king of bowyers, than I do agree with you, ;D.
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TMK, a long bow with elliptical tiller won't stack. The points you are trying to make have no evidence for them so for me to try and argue would just put us into a loop. Light weight osage bows can be made without handshock and warbows are no different. You send me a piece of osage good enough for a warbow and I'll show you. ;D Yes. Design is everything. Thank you.
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I agree with beadman that hunting everyday is a big factor that needs to be considered. Also sitting in a rain and fog and snow. The bow should be able to handle hunting seasons that range from 80 degrees to 10 degrees (Iowa hunting). The bow needs to rebound fast so that it can be used twice in one day. It needs to be able to whack a small limb and break it if it is in the arrow lane. it should be able to be dropped multiple times from a stand and still shoot. It should be able to handle the shock of hitting the stand if you were not focused and smacked the stand while shooting. If you are using primitive string then should be able to handle the shock of a sting break (it happened to a flax sting I made a couple of years ago). To me the argument is not FPS but overall performance. If you take deer with your bow and it takes what you dish out then you are using the right wood. I think this is 20 pages of posts about who can build a faster bow not what works best in practice.
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Too many...please find a quote from me that says osage is the end all wood...
Gee, ok:
"Anyways...I'm out and don't need to explain myself anymore even tho much more can be said...I know osage is best. <------ that's a period"
From page 3 of this thread, in your 3rd post from the top, right here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36150.30.html
Also, you never answered me, you said on page 2 ",and can make ANY design out there and do it well," So, is a warbow not a legitimate bow in your world? Since osage is the best wood, does it also make the best warbows?, that aren't handshocky, or sluggish at all?
Try again..I don't see the words osage is the end all. More misunderstanding and misinterpretation on your part.
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Rossfactor, what i mean is the degree to which we can get wood to bend, not specifying dimensions. I don't think you understand what I'm saying either.
blackhawk, I'm waiting for a reason. A well designed bow won't break. If it breaks it's not well designed. Unless of course you were going for firewood.
Uhhh....then what does this say with no further explanation,and that wasn't the only time. Again more contradictions and trying to cover up a faulty saying.
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iowabow, That's an excellent point. The problem I see is that a lot of guys claim that many other woods can't do those things when really they've never tried. If a bow is designed properly and well maintained then the shooting characteristics shouldn't be an issue. But a poplar bow may very well get too damaged in the rough to make it through a hunting season. But I'd be willing to bet there are many hard woods that can.
blackhawk, thats true but your pointing out my contradictions instead of trying to see the point that I'm making which should be clear. Bows can break if properly designed but not because of that. You're saying that your bows that broke were properly design and have failed to cite a reason other than the fact that they were of different woods. Was the wood flawed or too dry? If not then I think it might be the bowyers fault.
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Yew is King, >:D >:D There I said it, end of discusion! >:D >:D You can all send me hate mail now. LOL You can all say what you want but I'll just sit back and let you all go to war over your hard woods, and I'll sit back and gently scrape the buttery smooth shavings of cream colored sapwood and rich red heartwood of the mighty yew! Did I mention it is great in tension and compression as well as very forgiving with knots, heat corrects well and you don't have to chase a ring. Great for an ELB, flat bow, sinewed shortie or any design period! LOL >:D Bet I sirred up a hornets nest now. O:)
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TKM, a long bow with elliptical tiller won't stack. The points you are trying to make have no evidence for them so for me to try and argue would just put us into a loop. Light weight osage bows can be made without handshock and warbows are no different. You send me a piece of osage good enough for a warbow and I'll show you. ;D Yes. Design is everything. Thank you.
Yes, although I agree that design generally trumps species, designing a warbow out of osage is a bad design. A light weight bow and a warbow are entirely different things. A warbow will generally bend in the handle alot more than a light weight osage bow. Yes, stack will be apparent in an elliptically tillered (read: slightly whip tillered) warbow. In fact it will be excruciatingly apparent. So much that you'll never make one again. Ask me how I know. How long is this "osage warbow" we're talking about"? Alot of the maryrose bows were close to 78"? If this osage warbow is anything over 72" it will have handshock, no getting around it. It's just too heavy. If it is alot shorter than that, it will not draw as smooth as a warbow ideally (or hopefully) should, especially if it is elliptically tillered. Elliptical tiller is more favorable in lighter weight longbows IMO.
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TMK, Warbow's don't necessarily have to bend in the handle to the degree you're explaining. The length of the bow decreases the string angle so stack wouldn't be apparent unless the bow were whip tillered to the point of it being poor tiller and design. The longer the bow the more elliptically tillered it would have to be. You're making absolute claims about osage as a warbow that are completely unjustified except for your own experiences. I'd like to see your warbow that gave you these ideas. Also I'll be waiting for that stave. ;D
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It is silly to say that a hunting environment will show why Osage is the best. In the grand scheme of archery history in a meaningful sense, it barely registers. During the time that its use in archery really mattered it grew in a restricted area.
Virtually no wars were won with it, nor was even a fraction of total game harvested accomplished by osage bows.
Osage certainly won't make you a more successful hunter.
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I like elm ! Enough said!
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It is silly to say that a hunting environment will show why Osage is the best. In the grand scheme of archery history in a meaningful sense, it barely registers. During the time that its use in archery really mattered it grew in a restricted area.
Virtually no wars were won with it, nor was even a fraction of total game harvested accomplished by osage bows.
Osage certainly won't make you a more successful hunter.
If you take deer with your bow and it takes what you dish out then you are using the right wood. Did I say Osage? I do see why you would assume...
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Yew is King, >:D >:D There I said it, end of discusion! >:D >:D You can all send me hate mail now. LOL You can all say what you want but I'll just sit back and let you all go to war over your hard woods, and I'll sit back and gently scrape the buttery smooth shavings of cream colored sapwood and rich red heartwood of the mighty yew! Did I mention it is great in tension and compression as well as very forgiving with knots, heat corrects well and you don't have to chase a ring. Great for an ELB, flat bow, sinewed shortie or any design period! LOL >:D Bet I sirred up a hornets nest now. O:)
Right on Keenan..Atta boy ;)...I love yew too,untill I bang it into something or drop it :laugh:
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Yew is King, >:D >:D There I said it, end of discusion! >:D >:D You can all send me hate mail now. LOL You can all say what you want but I'll just sit back and let you all go to war over your hard woods, and I'll sit back and gently scrape the buttery smooth shavings of cream colored sapwood and rich red heartwood of the mighty yew! Did I mention it is great in tension and compression as well as very forgiving with knots, heat corrects well and you don't have to chase a ring. Great for an ELB, flat bow, sinewed shortie or any design period! LOL >:D Bet I sirred up a hornets nest now. O:)
Right on Keenan..Atta boy ;)...I love yew too,untill I bang it into something or drop it :laugh:
Well your not suppose to beat on it like it's a club. You carry her like a highly crafted and detailed black powder rifle ;D
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Guess ill have to start doing that Keenan ;).... and ya forgot to mention how smooth as molasses yew is to pull back,and how sweet it is upon release :laugh:
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Blink and we're up to 21 pages....
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TMK, Warbow's don't necessarily have to bend in the handle to the degree you're explaining. The length of the bow decreases the string angle so stack wouldn't be apparent unless the bow were whip tillered to the point of it being poor tiller and design. The longer the bow the more elliptically tillered it would have to be. You're making absolute claims about osage as a warbow that are completely unjustified except for your own experiences. I'd like to see your warbow that gave you these ideas. Also I'll be waiting for that stave. ;D
I said elliptically tillered, not poorly tillered. Because it is so much fun, I will repeat myself:
"Yes, stack will be apparent in an elliptically tillered (read: slightly whip tillered) warbow. In fact it will be excruciatingly apparent."
And like I asked before, how long is this warbow we are talking about? If maryrose length, where stacking would not be as apparent, handshock would be wrist shattering. Ya ever shot a bow that you just hated to shoot? A bow that just hurt to shoot? Where if it were made of a lighter wood such as yew (or mulberry, if ya didn't have no choice, and didn't have no yew like me) handshock could and would easily be acceptable with a comparable bow. And if the bow would be 71" - 73" like I would make it to cut down on the sluggishness of a longer dense bow, if tillered ellliptically, it would definitely stack to heck and back. Stack is definitely more noticeable in heavier weight bows. And it is more important (to me, I would assume everyone else as well) to have a smooth drawing bow when the draw weight is high.
"TMK, Warbow's don't necessarily have to bend in the handle to the degree you're explaining."
"The degree I am explaining" is a warbows normal tiller. If this osage warbow is long enough to draw smooth when elliptically tillered, it will absolutely shoot like a dog (compared to lighter woods). If this osage bow is short enough to make up for the extra outer weight, than an elliptical tiller will cause a very unenjoyable draw stacking at the last 2" to 3" of draw. It will also have more set due to more working being done in the mid and outer limbs opposed to an ideal even bend. If this bow is than tillered properly to reduce stack and set, it will have wrist shattering hand shock. I have made alright heavier "longbows" of osage, but it is a poor choice for a warbow. And I mean "alright", but not ideal by any means. Once again, my only point about all this was that osage is not the best bow wood in all scenarios, not that you cannot make a warbow out of osage. I do agree that design trumps species, but I do not mean that every wood is ideal for every design, and I believe we do in fact have to take species into account with when designing a bow.
"You're making absolute claims about osage as a warbow that are completely unjustified"
No I'm not. I'm not doing anything even close to that.
"I'd like to see your warbow that gave you these ideas."
Nothing I said is an idea based on one bow, or an idea of my own at all. I don't own any of the early warbows I have made, nor do I even own a warbow at this time. I haven't made a warbow for about a year since popping out my out rib when tillering.
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Then where are you getting these ideas from? Just making them up? I've never heard anyone say that longer bows stack so perhaps you and I disagree on what that means. And you're saying that osage won't make a comfortably shooting warbow which is entirely untrue. Like I said before, osage can make comfortably shooting bows of lighter weights. To say it can't make one of heavier weights makes absolutely no sense. Your ideas on the weight of osage limbs in a heavier bow is a gross over exaggeration with no support. Also the bow with the worst handshock I've ever shot was a short (sub 60") juniper bow.
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All right. Now you are arguing for osage. I knew you would come around ;D Welcome to the winning side >:D
When you target shoot with your bows do you leave them strung for hours at a time? Do you target shoot in below freezing temperatures or in the rain?
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OO, Notice I said it would make a good warbow, not a better one. ;) I do leave my bows strung for as long as I'm shooting but I can't say I've shot in any temperature extremes. Let me ask you this. Have you made an excellent white wood bow and left it strung for hours at a time and shot it in below freezing temps or in the rain?
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@toomanyknots.....sounds like yew need to get the heck out of dodge and move to the pacific northwest so you would have yew available to you...if a smooth pulling,sweet upon release shooting Longbow is important to you,yew would love yew and fall head over heals in love with it. ;)
Finally,I agree with Ryan. And that a well made osage elb is within reason for osage. I'd also like to welcome you to the winning side..lol :laugh:
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As I said above all the weather extremes that Osage copes with make little sense. There are bows used everywhere on Earth where Osage has never been heard of.
I target shoot and hunt for hours on end without using Osage. Freezing. rain, snow etc. etc.
I have a thought that the Osage guys don't really know what cold actually is.
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blackhawk, when it comes to making bows we all win. But I would like to understand what it means when a bow is smooth pulling and sweet upon release. >:D
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OO, Notice I said it would make a good warbow, not a better one. ;) I do leave my bows strung for as long as I'm shooting but I can't say I've shot in any temperature extremes. Let me ask you this. Have you made an excellent white wood bow and left it strung for hours at a time and shot it in below freezing temps or in the rain?
Yes, from HHB, my second favorite bow wood. I'll give you one guess to figure out what my #1 is ;D It did take a little more set than what I would have liked. It was a sweet shooter.
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Ryan, I give up for the night. I've been awake since 3 pm yesterday :P
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Well I've mostly stayed out until now. But I gotta throw the brakes on "Osage guys don't know what cold is." We actually dipped below freezing here once a few years ago. It's still talked about!
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OO, If I had to guess from your name I'd say... POPLAR! >:D Did your HHB bow take more set after use or during its making? I'd like to know more about it. See you tomorrow!
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I've never heard anyone say that longer bows stack so perhaps you and I disagree on what that means.
I explained myself clearly enough for you to understand what I was saying, I am tired of repeating myself. Either read what I type, or don't try to quote me. A warbow that draws to 32", not a longer bow in general, a warbow, that has 2 to 3 times the draw weight of a typical recreational target or hunting bow, a higher draw weight that will by all means make any small amount of stack 1000 times more apparent even if said stack was basically a non - issue on a light draw weight 32" draw length bow, a warbow, specifically a 72" osage warbow with an elliptical tiller, will stack like heck. Thats drawing out to 32" not 26" or 28" like you might be used to. Or do you purpose I make the bow a full 78", and shatter my wrist to crumbs with the bone crushing handshock, just to be rewarded with a slow motion fps speed? Ya, that sounds like a better "idea". And no, these are not "ideas" I came up with, these are facts by any definition. But I guess some people might prefer handshocky slow shooting bows, ya never know. I sure don't.
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TMK, I made a hickory warbow that was under 72" ntn, and 120#@32" and it didn't stack. You were saying?
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I've never heard anyone say that longer bows stack so perhaps you and I disagree on what that means.
I explained myself clearly enough for you to understand what I was saying, I am tired of repeating myself. Either read what I type, or don't try to quote me. A warbow that draws to 32", not a longer bow in general, a warbow, that has 2 to 3 times the draw weight of a typical recreational target or hunting bow, a higher draw weight that will by all means make any small amount of stack 1000 times more apparent even if said stack was basically a non - issue on a light draw weight 32" draw length bow, a warbow, specifically a 72" osage warbow with an elliptical tiller, will stack like heck. Thats drawing out to 32" not 26" or 28" like you might be used to. Or do you purpose I make the bow a full 78", and shatter my wrist to crumbs with the bone crushing handshock, just to be rewarded with a slow motion fps speed? Ya, that sounds like a better "idea". And no, these are not "ideas" I came up with, these are facts by any definition. But I guess some people might prefer handshocky slow shooting bows, ya never know. I sure don't.
That's called running out of strength. Osage should be able to make a shorter warbow because off all of its supposed strengths.
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TMK, stacking has nothing to do with draw weight and everything to do with string angle. A 72" bow with a 32" draw will not have a drastic increase in draw weight near the end of the draw. I think PatM is on to something.
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TMK, I made a hickory warbow that was under 72" ntn, and 120#@32" and it didn't stack. You were saying?
Yes, so have I. That bow was not elliptically tillered, so basically you are making no point. Either way I am done with this. Good night and have fun.
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TMK, stacking has nothing to do with draw weight and everything to do with string angle. A 72" bow with a 32" draw will not have a drastic increase in draw weight near the end of the draw. I think PatM is on to something.
YES it WILL when the elliptical tiller you purpose is making the string angle less than ideal. When the bow works evenly, it is funny, that it alot of the time will have an even force draw curve as well. Yes this could be argued to be solely string angle, I am not going to even get into that. And I never said stack had anything to do with anything. I said it is more apparent and more of an issue at higher weight, which it is Anyway, good night, ;D.
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If a bow like that stacks... which it wouldn't... ???
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Lordy it's still going.....Pat M....15 F is my limit.I sit in it often enough with hedge,but I've target shot white woods that cold too with no ill effects.I'll target shoot occasionally because of cabin fever as low as 0 F.I'm from Iowa.Where are you from?Does it get that cold by you?
There have been winters that it does'nt get above zero during the day for three weeks in a stretch and down to 25 below at night.I'm a retired farmer so I feel I do know what cold is.
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OK everyone, we've had some nice discusion and even a little fun with the verbal jousting. Everyone head back to your corners and make your best bow. Next week we'll all get together for the shoot off. First will up north with at low tempt test of 10 degrees for the ice breaker challenge. Then we could all head down to the local spa for the hot and humid test in the sauna to measure loss of poundage, loss of cast and mass increase of set. :o Just kidding of-coarse. You all get the point. We could go on for days about extremes and who can pee into the wind the farthest and get no where. I think we can all agree we each have preferences most due to enviorments and experiences that we have had. I have my favorites but always love trying new wood types and new styles as well. after all that is how we learn. Heck I may even have to try some of the theories that have come up on this thread for my own info
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For example. I'm just finishing up a couple bows that are 56" long and 50#@28". Even with that ratio of draw length to bow length the weight only increases less than 3# each of the last four inches of draw. A 72" bow with a 32" draw has a much shorter ratio of bow length to draw length and would have to be incorrectly tillered to make it stack.
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Interesting and fun..
Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)
Doesn't really matter what we call Osage.. It's still Osage bearing all it's qualities.
Cipriano
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I think some people on here need to revisit the shapes of a circle, an ellipse,and a parabola. Why do we never talk about parabolic tiller?
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If a bow like that stacks... which it wouldn't... ???
A bow that is 72" and even 100# @ 32" with an elliptical tiller, that is a tiller that barely even works if at all in the center, and does most of the work in the mid to outer limbs, making string angle less than ideal at fulldraw and creating less leverage than a normal warbow tiller would have in the outer limbs to tips, is going to be a horrid bow to draw and IMO an elliptical tiller for a warbow is a poor choice and is a poorly designed bow. Nuff said. That ain't no bullpoop man. That ain't some idea I just pulled out my behind. Anyway, I am going to bed, I am tired, it has been great, I will correct your misquotes and deal with the words you put in my mouth in the morning, good night, 8).
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Less than ideal is relative to draw length and at 72" long with a 32" draw the length is plenty. If you send me an osage stave I will make you an osage warbow you would be happy with. Promise.
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Keenan your a hoot.......but I would fail on the peeing contest.......LOL.Ryan I hope some day that your designs correspond to hedge to appreciate its value.Goodnight.
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Less than ideal is relative to draw length and at 72" long with a 32" draw the length is plenty. If you send me an osage stave I will make you an osage warbow you would be happy with. Promise.
I see what your trying to do, your just trying to score some "inferior osage", ;D. Ryoon, seriously, I guarantee you, there is nothing I am doing in regards to warbows that is in anyway significantly different than whatever you are doing. If you gave that bow an elliptical tiller like you have purposed, that stacked like heck for the last 2", you can go ahead and keep it. If I remember correctly, your hickory was tillered very well, and not in anyway an elliptical tiller. Tiller shape and string angle make a big difference in the draw in heavy weight bows I have found, and the effects of either are both more noticeable. Anyway, like I've said a couple times, my point is not if you can make an osage warbow, it is that an osage warbow will not in anyway compare with a similar warbow of better wood choices, and is in no way the "best" bow wood in every scenario. This was in response to all the people in this thread claiming osage is the utmost best bow wood period. I guess you are claiming that all bow woods perform exactly the same always as long as design is taken in mind and executed accordingly. To a small extent I agree, but to claim that this is always the case is an absolute in itself.
EDIT: Also, anyone who seriously shoots warbows of any significant weight typically does not shoot bows so short as 72". The couple more inches has a big effect on stack. Believe me or not. Or at the very least, I am sure they would rather shoot a 74" - 78" bow, especially if shooting for a long period of time.
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The bow I made was slightly elliptical and actually should have bent more in the handle for less set. I've provided several examples and explanations for why an osage warbow wouldn't stack or have handshock but I have yet to see one from you other than the fact that it's a dense wood which actually is a great advantage for a warbow. And again, draw weight will not change the behavior of the draw. If a heavy bow is tillered in such a way that it stacks at the end of the draw then a light bow would stack in the same manner. I do believe that all woods will perform similarly if designed correctly. There may be extremes but an osage warbow isn't one of them. If I ever get a good piece to make one I'll be sure to share it here.
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if you are talking self bows than osage is not a prime warbow wood, in a laminate however, this is far from the truth. In fact i really want to see about making a hickory/bamboo backed madrona/rhododendron warbow. with the compression strength of the last two combine with the tension strength of the first two it could be a very effective weapon...
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The bow I made was slightly elliptical
Yes, after looking at your warbow, I see it is indeed slightly elliptical.
I've provided several examples and explanations for why an osage warbow wouldn't stack or have handshock but I have yet to see one from you other than the fact that it's a dense wood which actually is a great advantage for a warbow.
Ya, longer bows always shoot better the heavier they are. K then. Yes, this is my point, (that it is a dense wood which is sluggish and shocky in a warbow) which has been my point the whole time. Duh. And you have only purposed that elliptically tillering it will magically make in it an entirely different wood. K then. Cause thats the best shape for a heavy 32" draw 72" long warbow. Alrighty. I'm sure the draw would be smooth as butter. I don't care about any theoretically crap you throw at me, that couple inches makes a huge difference in a warbow, it just does, like it or not, no getting around it. An elliptical tiller is a bad choice for a warbow. For a longbow or target bow, it is a nice tiller shape to make a non-shocky bow. A warbow will need an even bend to evenly compress the wood, to reduce set. Full compass. Make a couple more warbows and come and talk to me.
if you are talking self bows than osage is not a prime warbow wood, in a laminate however, this is far from the truth.
This is been my point the entire time.
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You're loosing it man! :o I guess the only way to show you you're wrong will be to add an awesome osage warbow to my collection. 8)
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You're loosing it man! :o I guess the only way to show you you're wrong will be to add an awesome osage warbow to my collection. 8)
Ya, make 20 and tell me you don't get tired of the handshock slow shooting performance. It don't make the best warbow, there are better choices for longbows in general, osage is not the best bow wood in every scenario, you are the one who has lost it if you think osage will make just as good of a warbow as yew.
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Idk if anyone told you but I don't make slow shocky bows. 8) And I'm pretty sure I haven't mentioned yew once although I think it probably could. ;D
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Idk if anyone told you but I don't make slow shocky bows. 8) And I'm pretty sure I haven't mentioned yew once although I think it probably could. ;D
Than yes, you have definitely lost it. >:D
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Last time I checked this topic it was on page 12 or something. Took me awhile to catch up. Very good discussion boys. Lets all hit the sack and get back at each others throats in the morning hahaha.
I think I've heard just about everything there is to know about 'bow physics' on this topic. Very nice
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Wow,Still at it. :o I don't know how yall have time to make bows. ;) :)
Pappy
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I can't believe this is still rolling...
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Lots of great info for sure.
In any good debate it's always important to remember that it's, "not WHO is right, but WHAT is right." That keeps it clean.
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This may well be a record for PA. Jawge
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TMK, I don't see how a warbow of Osage that is 74 or even 76 rather than 72 is going to magically be less stacking or more shocky.
A Warbow is supposed to shoot a heavy arrow which should soak up that shock nicely.
In any event the purpose that a warbow is made for is supposed to winnow out the guys who are worried about getting sore wrists.
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And conclusion is.....You can't make a "GREAT" bow with whitewood.
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Ugh! Blackhawk! Noooooooooooo! ;D ;D ;D
I can just picture you sitting at your computer with your fingertips pressed together quietly whispering "gooooood...goooood...release your anger and join me on the dark side of the force!"
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BH, I think you meant "I can't make a great bow from whitewood." You're getting there though, and with a bit of design study and execution I think you have the potential to be one of the great whitewood bowyers. ;)
You Osage guys have at least motivated me to finish this bow and see what all the hoopla is about.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/sept2011005.jpg)
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"I can feeeeel your hate"....."strike me down" >:D
You'll have to show me if you already know how patm ;).....and THAT is looking like a great bow :laugh:
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I'll have to dig out my elm rocket launcher that is 65 inches long and draws 32 inches when necessary. 10 years old and unchanged in performance.
The Osage stave above is obviously going to be a spliced in tip bow since the stave was just 4 feet long but I won't give any credit to the Elm tips for helping out.
It is 57 inches long with the tips in place and the limbs are at least two inches wide. What will that theoretically get me in drawlength and weight?
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Well I'd like to put my elm rocket launcher that's 64" and draws 32" everytime head to head against yours patm >:D. That bow still holds 2 1/2" of resting reflex n shoots great yet. Some elm can be good,and some just so so,but when ya do get a good one and design it well it can do some good things. But it still ain't osage ;)
how long are your working limbs pat?
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TMK, I don't see how a warbow of Osage that is 74 or even 76 rather than 72 is going to magically be less stacking or more shocky.
A Warbow is supposed to shoot a heavy arrow which should soak up that shock nicely.
In any event the purpose that a warbow is made for is supposed to winnow out the guys who are worried about getting sore wrists.
In my endeavors, regarding a 72" warbow verses a 76" warbow, there has been an absolutely huge difference in how smooth the bow draws. Ask some warbows guys on here. I'm really not one of them, but I have built enough of them to know how they work. And I agree that there wouldn't be a huge difference in the handshock, because the 72" one would probably still have some degree of handshock anyway compared to a lighter wood that could handle a warbow design. It would just be worse with a typically 78" bow. And yes some maryrose bows were shorter, but I believe 78" was the average? I could be wrong, if anyone wants to correct me, please feel free? You make good points about arrow weight and "sore wrists" I guess, but neither of them are really relevant to my main point, which was that osage is not always best wood in all scenarios. Especially a warbow. Yes, you can make a warbow out of osage,... but why??? Anyway, I am sure you know how I feel, I know how you feel, it's cool. I need stop sitting at my computer for hours, so I am going to stop right now or this "osage warbow" thing will never end. I don't even know what possessed me to jump into to cursed thread, ;D.
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Well I'd like to put my elm rocket launcher that's 64" and draws 32" everytime head to head against yours patm >:D. That bow still holds 2 1/2" of resting reflex n shoots great yet. Some elm can be good,and some just so so,but when ya do get a good one and design it well it can do some good things. But it still ain't osage ;)
how long are your working limbs pat?
Well I already know mine shoots further and it has a stiff handle and static ends so the working limb is more optimally strained.
It's also made from "pithy" elm which is feather light. There is no such thing as bad Elm here unless of course it is rotten with blight.
Working limbs on the Osage are a total of about 28". I think I will change the ends to longer less angled static levers which will increase the total bow length to 62 inches or so. I like that look better and according to studies the lower angled tips are more efficient despite storing less energy than sharp curves.
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TMK, At MOJam I was able to shoot the yew warbow of a real expert, John Murry, who happens to be the only American member of the English Warbow society. His bow was 120#@30.5" and 76" long if I remember correctly. There was no noticeable difference in the draw characteristics between the bows and although it sounds biased, the hickory bow seemed quicker to both me and John. You have yet to provide any evidence for your claims where two people here disagree with you and have provided several explanations to why you're opinion on stacking with heavy elliptically tillered longbows is wrong. I'm sorry you weren't able to make a good warbow out of osage and have these incredible biases. I'll teach you once I make one. 8)
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TMK, At MOJam I was able to shoot the yew warbow of a real expert, John Murry, who happens to be the only American member of the English Warbow society. His bow was 120#@30.5" and 76" long if I remember correctly. There was no noticeable difference in the draw characteristics between the bows and although it sounds biased, the hickory bow seemed quicker to both me and John. You have yet to provide any evidence for your claims where two people here disagree with you and have provided several explanations to why you're opinion on stacking with heavy elliptically tillered longbows is wrong. I'm sorry you weren't able to make a good warbow out of osage and have these incredible biases. I'll teach you once I make one. 8)
What evidence are you talking about? Where the heck is your evidence? And why the heck do you figure his bow was 76" long? Is he biased too? Your ridiculous man.
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TMK, I shot his bow at MOJam and I think it was 76" long. Can't remember for sure but it was longer than mine. Length is measurable so no bias there. The fact of the matter is that the last few inches of draw on both bows did not drastically increase like you claimed it would. You can call me a liar but my word is my word. ;)
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I mean come on. You, who have admittedly never even made an osage warbow, are going to tell me, who has made a bunch of osage warbows, that I am wrong about how an osage warbow performs. That is ridiculous and insulting. I'm done. I would like to exit this arguement in a good natured way though, if I could.
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It's simply a matter of the physics. Nothing tells us an osage warbow would perform differently if made well. Change in wood species won't affect stacking and differences in density can be accounted for in dimensions and tiller shape. We can stop since we don't seem to be getting anywhere but I'll eventually make an osage warbow and it'll be grand! :)
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Change in wood species won't affect stacking
I NEVER SAID THAT, stop misquoting me. That is utter bull poo. If you wanna quote me, use the freakin quote button. Why the heck would I ever say that? Anyway, I am done.
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Here's a good example and I trust Adam and his word....this is just one example of evidence and I know for a fact many others have built osage warbows without stacking and handshock issues
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=13967.0
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I guess what I got out of this 25 pages was an understanding of how passionate people still are about wooden bows and that's a real good thing! I do hope that we can see some bows come out of this talk and learn something from the ideas. I know I cant wait to make my next bow and use some of what was said from this post.
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Do you suppose war bows would have been historically 66" long if osage grew like yew did across the pond? Do you suppose yew/elm warbows are commonly 80" long because they had to make them that long to accomodate the draw weight?
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Settle down a lil folks... 8)
Toomany...do you remember the exact stats of the osage elb warbows you made. What's the bow length,draw weight,and draw length?
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And why do warbows have to be 80 'ish inches long while any other style of bow can be altered according to the wood we use? Why cant a warbow be 68" long and made from osage?
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iowabow, I feel the same way. When I initially posted I thought people wouldn't take it seriously. I hope people are able to learn something on both sides.
Pearl Drums, You make some excellent points. Not all warbows have to follow Mary Rose dimensions. They just need to throw spears! :o
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Those are honest to goodness questions from a warbow ignorant guy! Ive never studied or built one, probably wont as Im a hunter 100%.
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Where's Steve...he's built several and I know for a fact his favorite length for an osage elb is around 68" and no longer...and for good reason
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Steve would have ended this 3 days ago with hard numbers, he is amazing in that way. He has probably forgotten more than any of us will know.
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I was thinking the same thing. His profile says he's been on since this thread has started. Hopefully he's well.
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He is probably like the parent that is tired of repeating himself to kids that wont listen!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Hahaha! I was thinking that too! :laugh:
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He's prob kicking back with a smoke in one hand and a beer in the other laughing at all our dumb @##'$ :laugh:
You know what Ryan...seriously speaking..you and I really do believe in pretty much the same principles(just different preferences of wood)...but it is good fir us to challenge and question what we have been taught and even what we believe in...because discussion's like this advance our hobby and all the lurkers out there reading learn tons from our passionate stubborn rears :laugh::laugh:...and you dk realize now that I like to challenge folks,and pot stir fir the reasons I mentioned
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I've made many osage war bows (all laminates, mind you) up to 78" ntn, with no issues of excessive hand shock, stacking, or poor cast. I've tillered them elliptically and round. They're all narrow no more than 1 1/4" at the grip tapering to 3/8" nocks. I try to keep the tips very small and light to improve cast. In fact, an osage bellied multi lam war bow is my favourite type.
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alb, have you ever done one with more than 3 lams? i wonder how one would turn out.
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Isn't yew supposed to like to blow up in both frigid and dry conditions........
Ha ha! Don't tell that to any of the yew hunting bows out there. They don't know any better.
Ryoon - Tell that sister of yours to get her bow done! She needs it to fend off the unacceptable suitors.
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alb, have you ever done one with more than 3 lams? i wonder how one would turn out.
No.
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<snip>You know what Ryan...seriously speaking..you and I really do believe in pretty much the same principles(just different preferences of wood)...but it is good fir us to challenge and question what we have been taught and even what we believe in...because discussion's like this advance our hobby and <snip>
I knew IT!!! You two conspired to put this whole thing on didn't you?!?!? Stir up a little controversy and make us think instead of just oogleing and oggling purty pitures of other people's bows! You guys are insidious!!! ;) :laugh:
OneBow
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Where's Steve...he's built several and I know for a fact his favorite length for an osage elb is around 68" and no longer...and for good reason
I wonder what that reason is. I'm sure I haven't mentioned it 10 times by now or anything.
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Settle down a lil folks... 8)
Toomany...do you remember the exact stats of the osage elb warbows you made. What's the bow length,draw weight,and draw length?
Ya, from 68" to 74", from around 75# to 120# @ 32". I can hardly do a full 31" / 32" myself now, and am sure I wasn't drawing these bows out that far. These were made years ago, and I have no fulldraw pictures. I don't make warbows really anymore, and haven't made one since last year when I popped my rip when tillering one. I would like to get a pulley system set up where that would not be an issue, but until me and old lady move that is not possible. I am probably one of the last people qualified to give advice on warbows at all admittedly, but jesus, at least I have made an osage warbow, where I am guessing no one else arguing with me has. Either way, you guys win, I give up, osage is the best bow wood in the world. And also, all woods perform exactly the same always. And also, osage makes a better warbow that yew. ;D
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I live in the high desert of Central Oregon. Had my yew bows out in the heat near 100 and extremely dry conditions and out hunting the late seasons in 10 degree cold. never had any problems.
Toomany, "And also, Osage makes a better warbow that yew." I can't believe you would spew such heresies. Have you no shame! ;D >:D Maybe you are very cunning and trying a new tactic to get us yew lovers to send you some :o
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Pretty civil discussion. Please keep it that way. Whippy bows will stack unless made longer than usual. Bows tillered circularly will stack if not long enough in relation to draw length. Type of tiller is a non issue for stacking and so is weight. It's about the design. Stacking is only a function of string angle. As string angle approaches 90 deg the bow stacks badly as Bobo used to say. I do agree that getting more bending close to the handle decreases stack...again because of string angle. Now I don't make war bows so take my remarks with a grain of salt. :) Jawge
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And why do warbows have to be 80 'ish inches long while any other style of bow can be altered according to the wood we use? Why cant a warbow be 68" long and made from osage?
I was hoping that someone with more “credibility” on this site would bring this up.
The question should not be about an “Osage” EWB. Instead should be how would Osage be optimally designed to shoot a “War” arrow. That would also go for White wood bows. Just because they are “secondary” bow woods for an EWB design does not mean that they “could” not be a first class war bow if designed to the strengths of the wood.
It would be interesting to see what the experts would come up with using their favorite wood if the only criteria was that it had to shoot a 800 - 900 grain arrow with an armor piercing tip farther than 150 yards.
Keith
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Keith I believe that has been Ryoon's point from the start.
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Keith, what Pearl Drums said. ;D
TMK, my guess is your bows weren't made well and that's why they performed the way they did.
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i think that there has been a large amount of nastiness because of this post... it may be wise to avoid any insults that people plan on throwing around. might not end up in smiles.
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The nastiness just appeared muffin. Most has only been colorful conversation.
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Didn't mean to insult. I've seen your craftsmanship and know you can make a good bow. But you did say the warbows you made were made years ago which lends me to believe you may not have been at the skill level you are now. I know A few years ago my bows were no good. I just can't see how you're making those claims when they make no sense. And I don't claim to have godlike bow making abilities. Most of that was joking around. Maybe one day though. O:)
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maybe add some hint of joking or sarcasm like roll of the eyes where appropriate to make sure people get your joke? dont know if you did.
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I wonder what kind of war bows we would have seen if medieval bowyers had been able to access osage.
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Dar she blows...lol :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Well it looks like this conversation is coming to a close. I just want to say thank you to everyone who participated and thanks for keeping it clean. This by far the most fun discussion I've been a part of since I started making bows. It makes me happy to the the inferno of passion we can get within this community just by stoking the fire a little bit. I hope we are able to have many more talks like this in the future. Happy bow making!
Also I still want to see more poplar bows... >:D
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Didn't mean to insult. I've seen your craftsmanship and know you can make a good bow. But you did say the warbows you made were made years ago which lends me to believe you may not have been at the skill level you are now. I know A few years ago my bows were no good. I just can't see how you're making those claims when they make no sense. And I don't claim to have godlike bow making abilities. Most of that was joking around. Maybe one day though. O:)
Ya, I probably got the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. I suck at heated forum discussions. I apologize, and will delete my previous post. But the only so called "claims" I am making are well known facts. Yes, I know the definition of a fact is something that can be proven, blah blah blah, you know what I mean. ::) Here you go so you don't go putting words in my mouth, this is all I am saying:
- Osage is not a great choice for a warbow because it's density can make it sluggish and shocky at longer lengths. This ain't no claim, it's a well known fact.
- There are way better (read: better performing, because that is what matters to me) choices of bow wood for a warbow, or even a longbow.
- Because of this, I believe osage is not ideal in every scenario. (I also think that I can easily get better performance in other styles of bow out of "white woods" than osage, too while were at it, but I would never dare try to argue that in public after all this, ;D.)
- And only as a result of our discussion, I will tell you now, that a 76" - 78" warbow will always pull a thousand times smoother in the last couple inches of draw compared to a 72" warbow. I believe tiller has alot to due with the nature of the draw, and that an elliptical tiller on a shorter bow does have the potential to stack in the last couple inches, due to string angle like george pointed out. I firmly believe that an elliptical tiller is not ideal tiller for a warbow for this reason, and that of the added set an elliptical tiller has the potential to create (sometimes). Although I know elliptically tillered warbows are the norm alot of the time, and it is very very common. I have read many times that a warbow that bends in the handle too much will be a slow shooter. And we all know handshock is an issue. But after making 100# draw warbows out of woods which I really shouldn't of, I have come to dislike an elliptical tiller, because:
A ) An even bend, when compared to an elliptical tiller which would bend mostly on the outer - mid limbs and only slightly in the center, is more ideal as far as set is concerned. I used to think the other way, my thinking being that the center is under so much pressure compared to the outer limbs, that I was scared to get it bending much in fear of set. And we all know set in the middle is killer. But what kept happening to my warbows, was that I would end up with set mid limb. I do admit that at the time I was not using osage, but lesser grade woods. That is what I believe anyhow, I still have a horrible habit of tillering longbows elliptically, if you have seen any of my longbows I have posted. I really don't mind it in a longbow, as it reduced handshock a bit, and none of the longbows I make are 32" draw or anywhere close to heavy weight anymore. But for warbows of mulberry or silver maple (which is a horrid wood in compression btw, maybe the worse even. And yes, I've made warbows out of it. Because I am that stupid.), I would just end up with too much set mid - limb. And...
B ) An even bend simply will pull smoother. You can easily claim this is because of string angle. I think that is a simple way to put it. I believe leverage is a factor in there too though. Like the longer a molly's lever is, the smoother the draw, if you catch my drift. Do you know what I'm saying? I wish I could put a elliptically tillered warbow, and an even bending warbow in your hands in real life, and have you draw both to compare.
Anyway, what exactly doesn't make sense to you?
Also:
I've seen your craftsmanship and know you can make a good bow.
Now your definitely full of crap, ;D.
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I didn't see any nastiness. I've been reading a highly interesting debate, about wood bows, their construction and design. Seems to me their could have been a conspiracy of sorts between the two main protagonists to get this thing going. Lots of ideas and opinions thrown around, but both ready to back up their assumptions with data. Both eager to call unsupported dogma just that. Ryoon, your a bulldog! Get 'em on the run and then keep snapping at their backside during their retreat. My hat's off to you Sir. Blachawks bonafides are well known by his work. Enjoyed this one a bunch.
Edit. Spoke too soon. ^
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I didn't see any nastiness. I've been reading a highly interesting debate, about wood bows, their construction and design. Seems to me their could have been a conspiracy of sorts between the two main protagonists to get this thing going. Lots of ideas and opinions thrown around, but both ready to back up their assumptions with data. Both eager to call unsupported dogma just that. Ryoon, your a bulldog! Get 'em on the run and then keep snapping at their backside during their retreat. My hat's off to you Sir. Blachawks bonafides are well known by his work. Enjoyed this one a bunch.
Edit. Spoke too soon. ^
What unsupported dogma do you speak of? Aint nobody ran me off anywhere bob.
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I was speaking in general tmk, not about you specifically. You put up a good argument. No disrespect intended.
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I was speaking in general tmk, not about you specifically. You put up a good argument. No disrespect intended.
None taken, I was just curious. Don't worry, I ain't no bulldog like ryoon. If anything, I am one of those annoying little miniature dogs, that just won't stop barking at nothing, ;D.
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This discussion reminds me of that old cartoon where I think it was a dog and cat punch in at work and spend all day trying to kill each other and then the whistle blows at the end of the day and they clock out and walk home friends. It has probably been 20 or 25 years since I saw that one.
Ryoon. I am requesting that you please change your user name to "Poplar Pontificater" ;D
Read this on urban dictionary and thought it fit >:D
pontificate:
pontificate to rant rave and other wise try to convinse some one of your own point with out careing if they are lising or not
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:) :) :) :) :) :) funny
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Yep, that's the one I was thinking about.
I found it on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOSuhxFo76o
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I love that cartoon ;D
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I finally caught up And I'm not quite sure what arguments Are relevant And which ones are just people listening to their own words Covered all topics now including cartoons ;D ;D ;D at the end of the day facts of been presented , and real world experience combined together this go in circles is get me dizzy however there are tid bits of useful information I'm going to have to stay tuned so I don't have to play catch up so far next time ;D I'm surprise no 1 has mentioned string >:D
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SOY!!!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!
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I wouldn't use Osage if it was the last wood on earth. Poplar makes the best and fastest bows around:) And it grows every where nice and straight.
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Finally this thread went to the second page......I got more,anyone care to argue against me >:D
Roy lemme know if ya need any help cutting some poplar,ill help ya out but you can keep it all fir yourself :P
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You just wanna check out my new pile of osage:)
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Now what did we all learn from this?.........LOL.That hedge is NOT an inferior wood for bows accross the vast majority of bow makers out there.I'll tell ya what I did'nt learn but already knew a longtime ago.There are talkers and there are doers in this world and that personal preferences should be respected.
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Finally this thread went to the second page......I got more,anyone care to argue against me >:D
Roy lemme know if ya need any help cutting some poplar,ill help ya out but you can keep it all fir yourself :P
I'm still waiting for ryoon to explain to me what doesn't exactly make sense about anything I've said...
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I leave for a little bit and you guys start talking about cartoons? ::)
TMK, I've made my points. You've made your points. All that I can do now is put my money where my mouth is. An osage warbow had been on my list for a while so once I get a suitable piece I'll get to work.
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I leave for a little bit and you guys start talking about cartoons? ::)
TMK, I've made my points. You've made your points. All that I can do now is put my money where my mouth is. An osage warbow had been on my list for a while so once I get a suitable piece I'll get to work.
Btw, I do feel bad, didn't mean to go off the handle. I get too easily worked up in these discussions Ryoon. If you want I can send you a roughed out osage warbow stave, but it ain't gonna be super pretty, as I got rid of all the good osage staves I harvested this year and kept the duds that nobody would want for myself. The stave is 70 1/2", and has a bit of natural reflex. It will need to keep the sap wood on as I was going to use it when I roughed it out, and there is not enough wood to chase a ring I would think. The sapwood is still only about an eighth of an inch though, so there will be more than enough heartwood I hope to make you happy, ;D. Both ends have propeller twist for the last couple inches, which will need to be crowned (as much as you can without violating the back ring), as steam or heat correcting will not work on a stave this narrow. As long as the crown is not violating the back ring, it is safe and reliable to do this, if you haven't did that before. The alignment on one end needs to be corrected a bit too, as it warped a bit when I roughed it out too soon. Also, it was cut this spring, so it might need some hot boxing. If you think your up to the task, PM me your address, and i'll fedex it out to ya. Pics:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Osage%20Warbow%20Stave%20for%20Ryoon/DSCN0033.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Osage%20Warbow%20Stave%20for%20Ryoon/DSCN0034.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Osage%20Warbow%20Stave%20for%20Ryoon/DSCN0036.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Osage%20Warbow%20Stave%20for%20Ryoon/DSCN0039.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Osage%20Warbow%20Stave%20for%20Ryoon/DSCN0041.jpg)
(This is a remnant of a knot, not and actual knot, the stave it's self is clean and knot free.)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Osage%20Warbow%20Stave%20for%20Ryoon/DSCN0042.jpg)
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TMK, I don't think that stave is large enough for what I'd want to ask of it but I really appreciate the offer. I'd definitely like to see what you can do with it though. I love the look of the sapwood on the back.
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TMK, I don't think that stave is large enough for what I'd want to ask of it but I really appreciate the offer. I'd definitely like to see what you can do with it though. I love the look of the sapwood on the back.
You sure? You could easily get 150# @ 32" out of this stave if you really wanted to?, heck, probably way more. I mean easily. And tension wise, the back is nice and clean, there shouldn't be no real reason why it should fail. Especially if you keep it around 100#. It would probably end up about 69" ntn...
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Well heck if he don't want it ;D
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Yet another thing we disagree on! ::)
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Yet another thing we disagree on! ::)
;D What exactly do you think is too small about it? In the thickness, or the length? Either way, yes, I disagree with you! I only ask though because the thickness photo is near the tip, so show the sapwood ratio. There is definitely enough meat to get a darn 200# bow if you were crazy enough, and then some. If you are concerned about a 68" - 69" 100#-ish 32" draw osage bow... well..., you shouldn't be. 8) It has been done many times. (...Ryoon, I think you might just be wussing out... ... j/k ;) ) Either way, your choice. The offer will still be on the table if you change your mind in the near future.
EDIT: Also, if I had a bigger stave, I would send you one.
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Well heck if he don't want it ;D
;D ;D ;D
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I'll take it, if no one else is interested. I pay a fortune to get osage up here! I'm serious!
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It's not that I don't want the stave. It would make an excellent bow. But I'd like to get 120#@32" out of it and it looks a bit too small. What's the width and thickness in the middle and on the ends?
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It's not that I don't want the stave. It would make an excellent bow. But I'd like to get 120#@32" out of it and it looks a bit too small. What's the width and thickness in the middle and on the ends?
It is far far wide enough everywhere, I will tell you that. Honestly, I know I said 150, but that is accounting for the possibility of correcting sloppy tool marks that might of resulted from me roughing it out. Honestly, if you wanted, you could go as heavy as you want with this stave. I wouldn't offer it if it wouldn't give you your warbow. It don't take much osage to make a bow, I'm sure you know this. ;) The thickness is around 1 1/4" at center. It's been a while, but around 7/8", (more than likely 3/4", or possibly even less) thickness at center at 68" ntn or so should be all you need for basically as heavy as you want with good osage.
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Ok i will take the osage stave lol
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Ok i will take the osage stave lol
Haha, I feel like I'm back in jail around here, trying to fight for my lunch tray again, ;D ;D ;D. I should know better than to whip out some osage around you guys... ;)
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>:D >:D
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How wide is far far wide enough? ???
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Speaking from what I have read. Why would someone pack around a bow that weighs 20lbs and some 74 inches long. OK my understanding is that Osage is quite heavy.........and a heavy puller. Sounds like a tank in the bush, Where as a nice light shorty made from a lighter wood is more agile and quicker..
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You need more of the lighter wood to make a bow of the same draw weight and draw length. The physical weight comes out nearly the same and the lighter woods have more more volume making them arguably 'bulkier' than the comparable osage bow.
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bow101, heavy warbows were used just as their name suggests. For war. Length wasn't an issue. The most important part of a warbow is its ability to shoot very heavy arrows efficiently. Also bows of the same design specs will weigh close to the same weight no matter what species of wood.
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Ryan..I think there's enough width there fir ya in toomanys stave..and judging by pics I'd say you can get 120# out of it...but that shadow side knot concerns me though..I'd need to see the width there and where it is in the stave to make a better assumption
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Ryoon, I'm not lying, I know what I'm talking about, whether you think so or not. But if you really don't want the stave, I won't make you take it.
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It's really a simple question so I'm not sure why you can't answer. Not saying anything about you. Ill have to pass. Thanks anyways.
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It's really a simple question so I'm not sure why you can't answer. Not saying anything about you. Ill have to pass. Thanks anyways.
Ryoon, I'm sorry, I just didn't feel like measuring it at the moment. But like I said a couple times, it would give you whatever weight you want?, ??? I guess you and blackhawk don't believe me? Fine by me though, I don't got no problem keeping my stave, >:D >:D >:D.
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Iowabow will gladly take the nice gift of a wonderful golden Osage stave and will not look it in the mouth!
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TMK where did you find scales heavy enough to make/weigh bows that heavy? I have never seen any over 150# max. Could just be my small world. Im guessing scales would be the number one tool with bows at that extreme weight. One slip up and your screwed.
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I use one of them mouth scales on real heavy bows. Ya just hold it between your teeth and pull the bow back. The harder ya grit your teeth the more pressure ya place on the scale. Then ya just spit it out and read the weight:)
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TMK where did you find scales heavy enough to make/weigh bows that heavy? I have never seen any over 150# max. Could just be my small world. Im guessing scales would be the number one tool with bows at that extreme weight. One slip up and your screwed.
You can order spring scales that go over 200 online, and probably some electric ones too, but I got mine at a local tracker supply co, if you got any of those around you.
EDIT: Heres one they have that goes up to 280, http://www.tractorsupply.com/taylor-hanging-scale-280-lb-capacity-1020594
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I got my hanging scale at a local butcher supply store. It goes up to 160#. They had them up to any weight you want.
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Starting to look like the stave is coming to my house >:D 8)
I'll make a warbow out of it.
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finally caught up and i figured i would let you guys know i am actually in the process of making an Osage warbow and unless im mistaken the osage im useing came from toomanyknots ;D
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This thread reminds me that there are no inferior woods. Now woodworkers, thats another story.
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I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning (Monday) when Pappy post's a picture. ;D
Friends it's a really neat picture. Stay tuned, should bring a smile, it did make me crack a wide grin. 8)
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Thought yall might like this. ;) ;D ;D ;D More on another thread. ;)
Pappy
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I look at osage as a premier hunting bow material but for bowyering it's a beginner's wood.
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;D ;D ;D
Awesome pappy ;)
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Thanks Chris,I thought you might like that. ;) steve b. I hope you are just trying to stir the pot and really don't believe that. :o ??? :) :)
Pappy
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LONG LIVE THE KING!
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Yes osage is amazing....lets keep this post going!!!!!
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I look at osage as a premier hunting bow material but for bowyering it's a beginner's wood.
Ok..I'll bite...
So if your serious please explain further why you think this. That's a pretty general vague statement that can be interpreted ten different ways or more. So tell us about your experiences with osage and other bow woods and why you feel this way? Like how much osage have you harvested,how many osage bows have you made compared to using other woods,and how many times have you made bows out of those other woods? And of those bows how many woukd you say will last a good while thru every weather and environmental abuses,yet still cast a good arrow. Id like to know how much your grain of salt weighs.
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I look at osage as a premier hunting bow material but for bowyering it's a beginner's wood.
Ok..I'll bite...
So if your serious please explain further why you think this. That's a pretty general vague statement that can be interpreted ten different ways or more. So tell us about your experiences with osage and other bow woods and why you feel this way? Like how much osage have you harvested,how many osage bows have you made compared to using other woods,and how many times have you made bows out of those other woods? And of those bows how many woukd you say will last a good while thru every weather and environmental abuses,yet still cast a good arrow. Id like to know how much your grain of salt weighs.
Yes do tell :)
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I look at osage as a premier hunting bow material but for bowyering it's a beginner's wood.
Ok..I'll bite...
So if your serious please explain further why you think this. That's a pretty general vague statement that can be interpreted ten different ways or more. So tell us about your experiences with osage and other bow woods and why you feel this way? Like how much osage have you harvested,how many osage bows have you made compared to using other woods,and how many times have you made bows out of those other woods? And of those bows how many woukd you say will last a good while thru every weather and environmental abuses,yet still cast a good arrow. Id like to know how much your grain of salt weighs.
Yes do tell :)
Yup... I'm all ears too. Enlighten us.
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Pappy, Pappy, Pappy,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I can see I am going to have send you some more KING YEW! ;D >:D All kidding aside I do believe the two tops woods are Yew and Osage,,,,,, But we all know there is only one Top Dog.... :o
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I look at osage as a premier hunting bow material but for bowyering it's a beginner's wood.
Ok..I'll bite...
So if your serious please explain further why you think this. That's a pretty general vague statement that can be interpreted ten different ways or more. So tell us about your experiences with osage and other bow woods and why you feel this way? Like how much osage have you harvested,how many osage bows have you made compared to using other woods,and how many times have you made bows out of those other woods? And of those bows how many woukd you say will last a good while thru every weather and environmental abuses,yet still cast a good arrow. Id like to know how much your grain of salt weighs.
Yes do tell :)
Yup... I'm all ears too. Enlighten us.
Obviously, I would assume he meant the wood is more forgiving to poor tillering and beginners mistakes, making it an over all easier wood to get a shooter out of than other woods for a beginner. Which it is.
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Maybe that is what he meant. :-\ But I can tell you I have been involved with a whole lot of beginners 100's and if you give them a piece of a piece of white wood/Hickory/Elm/Hackberry/HHB and most other white woods they can make a bow that will shoot on the first try with minimal supervision,Osage on the other
hand, they will be overwhelmed from the start and you had better keep a close eye on them all the way through the process. O sure if you get it de barked,a ring chased laid out floor tillered and straightened and give it to them it all steam ahead. :)But all of that comes from experence not what a beginner knows how to do with out experence,thust the word beginner. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Maybe that is what he meant. :-\ But I can tell you I have been involved with a whole lot of beginners 100's and if you give them a piece of a piece of white wood/Hickory/Elm/Hackberry/HHB and most other white woods they can make a bow that will shoot on the first try with minimal supervision,Osage on the other
hand, they will be overwhelmed from the start and you had better keep a close eye on them all the way through the process. O sure if you get it de barked,a ring chased laid out floor tillered and straightened and give it to them it all steam ahead. :)But all of that comes from experence not what a beginner knows how to do with out experence,thust the word beginner. ;) :) :)
Pappy
Now that's a heavy grain of salt right there ;)....
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"I can tell you I have been involved with a whole lot of beginners 100's "
Pappy you certainly have inspired allot of beginners and the heritage and skills you are passing down is an inspiration to all bowyers ;) I know many will hold the memories of the Twin Oaks dear to their hearts for a life time.
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Maybe that is what he meant. :-\ But I can tell you I have been involved with a whole lot of beginners 100's and if you give them a piece of a piece of white wood/Hickory/Elm/Hackberry/HHB and most other white woods they can make a bow that will shoot on the first try with minimal supervision,Osage on the other
hand, they will be overwhelmed from the start and you had better keep a close eye on them all the way through the process. O sure if you get it de barked,a ring chased laid out floor tillered and straightened and give it to them it all steam ahead. :)But all of that comes from experence not what a beginner knows how to do with out experence,thust the word beginner. ;) :) :)
Pappy
True. Just guessin anyway.
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Alright ive stayed out of this so far but i cant hold back any longer. To say that osage is a beginners wood is about as ridiculous a statement as ive ever heard. Kinda like pappy said if someone else does all the hard work and then hands a beginner a floor tillered stave then it is easy. To me cutting the tree, splitting the staves, debarking and removing sapwood and trying to keep the wood from checking is all part of the bowyering process. If you think osage is the easiest wood to accomplish all that with then you've obviously never tried it.
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Pappy, yes I mean that. First of all, I love your recurve. I really like the sleek tip overlays. I was thinking I wish I had a backyard like that.
I'm just referring to what has already been pointed out, that osage is forgiving. So tiller and knots can be mistreated and the bow will still live. Chasing the ring and following the snakiness can be challenging but all things equal the osage bow is more likely to survive, and with less set.
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I find it funny when people say they don't like to chase rings on osage. When I first learned to chase rings I was using hickory. Now when I have to do it on osage it's like a dream! I'd chase rings on 4 osage staves before one hickory. ;D
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why bother chasing rings on hickory?
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Belly split staves don't have the pristine back left after debarking. And I'd rather chase a ring than try and flatten out the back which, with my staves, seems to be pretty squirrely.
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you should chase a ring on any wood when a back ring is violated, or back it.
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I've got a bow I'm finishing up right now that had so many whoop de doos and twist in it that I guarantee if it was a lesser wood it would not have survived to be a shooter. At least if it were made by me...lol ....and yes osage does compensate for poor tillering skills and still make a good shooter as many of my bows can testify to. I am also fairly certain that osage can handle being overdrawn a couple inches without taking on too much set to make it doggy and without failing completely, cuz I've done it a number of times ( not that I am recommending it as a regular practice of course).
I have yet to work with or shoot yew and have no doubt that it is a truely wonderful bow wood, however I highly doubt that it can handle the abuse my osage bows can due to it being a softer wood. I will say though that the creamy sapwood and contrast of the heartwood is truely stunning on a yew bow and I admire it tremendously and in fact think it may be the most beautiful when well finished.
I kind of liken the yew wood as the classy dress shoes verses osage as a rugged pair of hunting boots. Or to put it another way yew wood would be the Lexus or Mercedes luxury car and osage a good Ford 4x4, ( no offense to the Dodge and Chevy owners, not trying to hi jack the thread...hehehhe). I've just gotten a couple hundred thousand miles out of my Ford truck on a number of occasions and I am convinced they are the most durable long term.
To me the durability of the osage is the thing that makes it my choice.
Danny
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Perhaps Osage is "an inferior bow wood" because it re-enforces the bad / enept practices of LESS THAN EXPERT bowyers? Perhaps it leads us to over build our bows because it allows us to build a bow that doesn't look like it's over built, (like Ryan's Poplar Molly), but still has room to be overdrawn or otherwise abused.
I mean, isn't it kinda like that Highschool Algebra teacher that let's you skate by with a less than full effort and doesn't make you work out the full proof? When you get to the University level upper math courses, you're NOT going to appreciate what that old math teacher in Highschool did "for you" as much.
BTW - Ring chaseing on Hickory is NOT for the normal sighted person. Like good quill work and beadwork, and flint knapping, it nearly REQUIRES that one be severely near-sighted. Which is funny, because if your eyesight is bad enough to be able to make a great Hickory bow, great stone arrow points, and a great beaded quiver; then you're probably too blind to hunt with them!
OneBow
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I learned this craft working on Bois d'ark staves. We cut our own wood for the most part, so that meant selecting the trees, cutting sealing, splitting, storing, ring chasing, so on and so forth. My first white wood bow was a snap in comparison. Hit in on the floor to knock the bark off, draw and cut it out, and then tiller. Much easier for a beginner. True, Osage is more forgiving of poor tiller than most white woods, but nobody aims for a poorly made bow. We all shoot for well crafted finely made bows. So yes, Osage may get a beginner a "barely holding together but still shootable bow" where a white wood would fail. But only if he first got all the other stuff done correctly. That, is what makes Bois d'ark "The King"! That same stave in the hands of a great bow maker can be transformed, from the barely serviceable shooter it might have been, into a "Great Bow". Not because it was easier, it was not, but because the quality of the wood made both extremes possible.
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you should chase a ring on any wood when a back ring is violated, or back it.
I don't think this is necessarily true. A lot of woods tolerate some degree of ring violation. Backing is often not necessary even on bows with ring violations. This is observed in some neolithic yew bows, and has been re-documented recently. Here is yet another reason why design is not everything.
Gabe
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I don't think its necessarily true either. I was making a general statement to Dictionary in order to get him thinking in that direction. I have bows with violated backs and they work. If a bow breaks it may or may not have been by a thin back. One may never really know. It is insurance and a good practice. Lots of "rules" of bowmaking are broken without incident.
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Lots of "rules" of bowmaking are broken without incident.
Guilty as charged. I dont do much of anything "right" when I build bows.
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:)
Yup, not trying to spew dogma, just thought I'd mention it. I'm glad we don't have a rule book in archery. That would be so boring!
Gabe
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The last two yew bows that I've made have the sapwood reduced without chasing a ring. the back is violated and they shoot fine. I know Del has done the same on several occasions. I agree that it depends on the wood and the design.
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The last two yew bows that I've made have the sapwood reduced without chasing a ring. the back is violated and they shoot fine. I know Del has done the same on several occasions. I agree that it depends on the wood and the design.
I have read that on here so many times, that is just insane. I wish I had yew near me. I would move out west, but than I wouldn't have osage anymore, :'(. Maybe I will just pull an osage outlaw one day, pack me up my 500 osage staves on the top of our plymouth voyager, and move out to oregan to annoy my sister who lives in portland,... and cut her yew trees down in her back yard, ;D.
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There ain't much yew in Portland.
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There ain't much yew in Portland.
Truth.
I'm pretty sure I've seen most of the yew trees in Portland and I can count them on my hand. They're all in Forest Park. :-\ O:)
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The last two yew bows that I've made have the sapwood reduced without chasing a ring. the back is violated and they shoot fine. I know Del has done the same on several occasions. I agree that it depends on the wood and the design.
I have read that on here so many times, that is just insane. I wish I had yew near me. I would move out west, but than I wouldn't have osage anymore, :'(. Maybe I will just pull an osage outlaw one day, pack me up my 500 osage staves on the top of our plymouth voyager, and move out to oregan to annoy my sister who lives in portland,... and cut her yew trees down in her back yard, ;D.
Toomany, Your plan is on the right track just needs a little tweeking. To heck with the big city stuff and aim for the little small towns in the foot hills of the Cascades. Something right on the edge of the forest. Get a good draft breed horse and train it to pull logs ;D and start your own Yew stave business, offer room and board living in exchange for labor and you could have all your bow building buddies along for the ride,,,,,,,,if only it were that simple ::) ::) >:D
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There ain't much yew in Portland.
Truth.
I'm pretty sure I've seen most of the yew trees in Portland and I can count them on my hand. They're all in Forest Park. :-\ O:)
Yep and there I've only seen 3 in forest park. I did find some growing on a hillside next to a small lake in Clatskanie :)
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Well don't stop listing locations there Bryce....that way I know where to go next time I'm cruising on thru the area >:D
LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!!!!!!
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Haha there both state parks :P
I'll 2nd that Yew is the king >:D
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You think thats gonna stop me >:D...it ain't the states land..its gods..and the good lord giveth and the blackhawk taketh away >:D
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YOU TELL EM CHICKEN HAWK 8)
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The good Lord made Osage grow a lot faster than Yew. Thataway you can grow 10 Osage staves in the time it takes to grow 1 yew stave. This is because He knew that the Osage boys were gonna be crazy and wanted to protect his favorite bow wood, by distracting the masses with the yellow stuff. Lets face it, God prefers Yew. O:) O:) O:)
Gabe
Please excuse the religious overtones, no disrespect is intended here, just having a little fun.
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thanks again for those locations bryce ;)....that didnt take me long to find and get >:D....talk about easy pickins :laugh:
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-02_10-02-41_520.jpg)
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I can see one in that pic that wont make a bow!
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Thatta boy Scott!
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Yup that's all fire wood..
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thanks again for those locations bryce ;)....that didnt take me long to find and get >:D....talk about easy pickins :laugh:
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-02_10-02-41_520.jpg)
i have never seen a more beautiful picture...... so many potential warbows ;D
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thanks again for those locations bryce ;)....that didnt take me long to find and get >:D....talk about easy pickins :laugh:
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-02_10-02-41_520.jpg)
Would you be willing to part with any of that? I'm serious.
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No comments to make on the discussion other than to say keep it up guys this is fun to watch. :D
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Where did ya find the straight ones,,,,,,,,,mine all look like the third from the left :o >:D
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That yew stuff looks kind of wimpy ;D
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Hmmmm? Seems to be some jealous folks out there ::)
@Adb...I've already parted with 25% of it,and a couple more are on hold for someone,so I've got to decline to keep some for myself,cus ill never see this again in my life time.
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I get to look at that wood all the time when I am at Blackhawk's place . Do you think he would give me one of those ? NO. LOL.
But hey Christmas is coming. you never know .
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If I had his address, I'd sneak over there and get some after dark. :)
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If I had his address, I'd sneak over there and get some after dark. :)
I don't think I'd do that! It's like to lead to one of his fast Molly girls plantin' a few feathers in places you don't want 'em to grow!!! :o :o :o
OneBow
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Nah, I've seen him shoot.... ;D
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Lmao guys :laugh:.....I don t even know why you guys wood want any of this stuff anyways cus osage is better ;)
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Thats a nice batch of bow wood no matter what the species. I think you are sticken with the same disease I am. "Hi my name is Danny and I'm a bow wood aholic"
I'm about due to harvest some hackberry here pretty soon. I've got a nice 12" dia pipe straight one spotted that'll yield probably 15 or so nice staves. I'm still trying to convince myself I can work with something other osage...lol.
I have one yew stave I traded for about a year ago that has been calling me to release it from its cucoon. Maybe I will get to see up close and personal what all the hoopla about yew is. Is it true I need to wear a mask when working with it to keep from getting poisoned? Danny
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Not really, but it does affect some folks, so be prepared.
We just require blackhawk to wear a mask cause he's so ugly.. :)
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Not really, but it does affect some folks, so be prepared.
We just require blackhawk to wear a mask cause he's so ugly.. :)
Looks like yew just made the naughty list,and yew will not be receiving a present from me. :P
Id wait to cut that hackberry till spring when the bark peels off like butter Danny. Yew dust won't poison you,but it makes some folks woozy ...it don't bother me none and I love snorting the $%#@ ;)..just don't eat the seeds in the berries...that'll poison ya.
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No problem tuff guy.. I had a barn full of Osage I wuz gonna share wit ya, but not no mo:)
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I'll take your advise on that then Blackhawk. Its not that it will be going anywhere.
I spotted a couple osage trees yesterday when we were shooting the stuffed animal course we have set up. Don't know how I missed them before. I found two that are about 6" in diameter that look like they will have a bit of snakeiness to em but are otherwise pretty straight. Guess I'll have to satisfy myself with that for now. Danny
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thanks again for those locations bryce ;)....that didnt take me long to find and get >:D....talk about easy pickins :laugh:
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-02_10-02-41_520.jpg)
Hahaha no problem man. Ill let you know where the real bow wood is anytime :D
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Not really, but it does affect some folks, so be prepared.
We just require blackhawk to wear a mask cause he's so ugly.. :)
Looks like yew just made the naughty list,and yew will not be receiving a present from me. :P
Id wait to cut that hackberry till spring when the bark peels off like butter Danny. Yew dust won't poison you,but it makes some folks woozy ...it don't bother me none and I love snorting the $%#@ ;)..just don't eat the seeds in the berries...that'll poison ya.
Ha! Blackhawk try smoking the needles. That will put a kick in your kinnikinnik!
That stuff really does cause reactions in some people. My brother broke out in blisters on his hands after the first time he rasped on a yew stave. But he also gets poison oak just from looking at.
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Na Carson..I like to boil the needles and make yew tea ;)
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I made my first Yew bow a month ago, it didn't bother me at all. But IPE sure ripped me up one side and down the other.
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Its been a couple months later and guess what....osage is still the best best best >:D
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If tillered correctly
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If tillered correctly
Yet more forgiving when not.
-Dan
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it will hit the spot if the shooter does his part ,even tillered badly. :) Bad tillered bows are just as accurate. >:D >:D ;) :) Here we go again, 2 feathers ask in the Life is good thread what I do in my spare time. ??? Well here ya go. ;) :) :) :) :)
Pappy
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Good discussion. Lots of good information. I've made several bows from Osage, hickory and mulberry. With all factors considered, I like the mulberry over the other two. My Osage building days are numbered anyway. There is no osage around this part of Ky.
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Wow. Lots of opnions here. I just find a tree in the woods and if it's a hard wood like hickory, elm, or bl or even white oak I will make a bow outta it. As long as it flings an arra fast enough that I dont' have to take a flight shooting stance to hit a target at 35 yards I am happy ;)
Greg
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This is a discussion I would rather have left alone, but it became relevant after a hot discussion in our local bow makes guild last night. Since we are danes in a danish guild, we dont talk Osage (none of us have had the privileged to work that species)....so the topic was on yew, hazel and Elm.
Now...I detest Yew and have a low/hate relationship with Hazel. Wych Elm on the other hand...ah well, my love of Elm is well documented;-).
Long story short.....in my opinion there is no "best or worst", "inferior or superior".....there might be more or less forgiving woods, but in the end its a matter of personal preference:-)
Cheers
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What is Hassle?
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What is Hassle?
Sorry.....my bad....Hazel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel
Ps: Ill edit for clearity;-)
Cheers
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So far I have made bows from Laburnum, Yew, Sloe (Prunus spinosa), Ash, Tree of Heaven, Hazel, Buckthorn, Ipe, Pear, Rowan, Elm even Alder (really bad bow wood, not worth the effort). I have in my sights; Boxwood, Cherry, and a lot more Sloe & Laburnum, and I may have found an steady supply of Yew! When I get a prospective new bow wood I make as many bows and styles as I can from it. One thing I always notice is that the consensus on a certain bow wood is not always correct. For example I have a deep D profile ELB style Ash bow that shoot and generally behaves better than flat bow styles from that wood and all the Hazel I have ever worked with has looked so promising only to crysal so bad even after heat treating that I have sworn never to touch it again. I will also admit that my preference for certain styles could also explain my failures as readily as issues with the wood.
One really important factor for me is wood density. I am always on the lookout for really dense wood, Sloe, Laburnum etc. Good bows can still be made from low density stuff like Buckthorn as we have seen over the last few weeks from Missilemaster and Pearl Drums.
I have never worked with Osage, and although I would like to it seems unlikely - as Scotland does not seem replete with Osage Orange trees – and besides it's a shame to only make one bow from a type of wood, as would be the case if I ever did score an Osage stave. So for me it's down to getting the toughest densest wood I can find and giving it a go.
As far as I can tell from being a member on here and paleoplanet and eating up every bit of bow flavoured information I can get, Osage Orange is a very dense wood that is good in compression and tension and does not mind changes in temperature and is very forgiving of bad design. Given all those factor I would say the balance of probability make it the best self-bow wood out there. Well not really out there – more over there! In the US.
All that aside I know there is a tree out there, not even sure what species, growing pole straight, wood as tough as brass, just born to bend and be made into the perfect projectile launcher. We haven’t met yet; but we will, I just pray I have a pruning saw on me when we do!
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Ya got it holten,
Just give me a pice of wood to whittle on to make a bow that shoots am I am happy ::)
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I agree Osage is mostly fire wood. After I cut it down and split it and let dry, I then keep cutting into smaller pieces and burn it.
What's left I stain and seal and shoot arrows with. :)
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We should pin this to the top of the board so we can post to it weekly but should change the name of the post to "Life is Osage" >:D >:D >:D >:D
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Another year has passed,and many more bows have been built from various woods and styles,and osage is still king >:D :laugh: ...now where's that osage hater :laugh:
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Chris, I think he's hiding in his dorm room. ;)
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Hidden behind a hideous green and white veil to boot!
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He's probably doing surgery on a patient by this point! ...probably with a poplar bladed scalpel!!!
OneBow
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Heck Onebow, Ryan is so smart I woulda' let him cut on me before he went to school for it!
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Holy Cow!!! This was a year ago, already!!! ???
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Time flies when your winning BOM's Stevie!
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I have several Osage bows in the 50-60 pound at 27" range that shoot in the high 180's to low 190's that hold a 1" reflex after more than half a decade of use and I don't have baby them in the woods while I walk around. Nuff said. Osage is king.
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Oh yea, and none of my osage bows exceed 63" in length and 1.25 in width, keeping them easy to maneuver in the brush. Few wood species can handle that design, at that length, with those weights, and still retain reflex and never fret.
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Oh yea, and none of my osage bows exceed 63" in length and 1.25 in width, keeping them easy to maneuver in the brush. Few wood species can handle that design, at that length, with those weights, and still retain reflex and never fret.
That is screaming fast, what weight arrow are you shooting?
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450-500 grains... (:
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I'd love to see a video of that! That would put a selfbow right up there with the absolute best modern recurves and longbows on the market.
Jon
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If I could just figure out where I put the rods to my chronograph at!!! I would.
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That's record setting stuff bowmo.
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A 56# at 27" bow consistently shooting 186/7 with a 450 grain arrow....nah. Here's the bow I'm talking about.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/wakolbinger/november/P2100646.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/wakolbinger/november/P2100648.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/wakolbinger/november/P2100645.jpg)
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Ive made 75 +/- just like it, but none that shoot 180-190 fps. PM me all your secrets stat!
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Shoot a lighter arrow like he is. ;)
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A 56# at 27" bow consistently shooting 186/7 with a 450 grain arrow....nah. Here's the bow I'm talking about.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/wakolbinger/november/P2100646.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/wakolbinger/november/P2100648.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/wakolbinger/november/P2100645.jpg)
That works out to about 173 which is excellent and what can be expected from a bow with the profile you have there.
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Depends on the release too.
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Who cares if they are over built if it shoots an arrow and lasts decades and hundreds of thousands of shots it really doesn't matter. I prefer an over built bow to an underbuilt bow
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Who cares if they are over built if it shoots an arrow and lasts decades and hundreds of thousands of shots it really doesn't matter. I prefer an over built bow to an underbuilt bow
My feelings have been stated. >:D
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Who cares if they are over built if it shoots an arrow and lasts decades and hundreds of thousands of shots it really doesn't matter. I prefer an over built bow to an underbuilt bow
My feelings have been stated. >:D
Can I have an AMEN..? !!!
;)
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This is still going on ???
Jeez kids.
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Bryce...in one way,shape,or form this will never end and continue on till the worlds end
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;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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What this post needs is one more post ..... >:D
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this is hilarious. we should really keep this discussion going until Ryoon graduates. :laugh:
I think I will give Poplar a try. Just curious If I can actually make a bow out of it.
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I don't like over built or under built bows ;D
Two words - mass principle ;D
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Just build bows. Use bow woods to which you have ready access. A properly designed and crafted bow will last a lifetime. Jawge
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this is hilarious. we should really keep this discussion going until Ryoon graduates. :laugh:
I think I will give Poplar a try. Just curious If I can actually make a bow out of it.
If I find some nice Poplar I am gona snag it for sure !!
It should not take Ryoon long to gradiate cause he is way smarter than me !
Hope to see him soon !
Take care Buddy !
Guy
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Oh, no... not this again! ::)
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Oh, no... not this again! ::)
that is what i thought :laugh: that is why i TRIED ending it with an AMEN!!! ;D >:D
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I just finished all 37 pages...holy crap.
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time well spent?
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Hahahhaha ;D. I havnt decided yet.
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Funny thing is that all year long I build bows from every wood I get my hands on. I don't care what the name of the wood is that I am taking to a flight shoot. For some reason I always end up taking osage, for me it just seems to hold up the best in a high stress design. Now this year I have a maple backed cherry that is on the first string team but I have about 9 months left and an osage bw will probably knock it off.
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This was a lot of fun to re read, got to love this place. ;) ;D ;D all that and I doubt anyones minds were changed ,I know mine wasn't,Osage is still King. >:D ;) :) :)
Pappy
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I heard a saying once. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still..." That said...from my observation... It seems like those that have built tons of bows using many different kinds of woods seem to highly favor osage. I highly favor hickory but only because I know it best and to be honest getting osage would be very expensive for me. My favorite "wood" right now is maple just because I think it's cool. I don't know if it will every be my favorite "bow wood" though. Even Ryan said he loves Osage in so many words...
.....maybe I didn't quite understand the 4th or 5th time I read the chapter on the mass principle but I thought it said that most any wood designed using that principle will perform about the same as any other wood designed using the same principle.....is that correct?
Badger are you suggesting that - osage just takes more punishment over time and breaks down slower? hence - "For some reason I always end up taking osage, for me it just seems to hold up the best in a high stress design."
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Funny thing is that all year long I build bows from every wood I get my hands on. I don't care what the name of the wood is that I am taking to a flight shoot. For some reason I always end up taking osage, for me it just seems to hold up the best in a high stress design. Now this year I have a maple backed cherry that is on the first string team but I have about 9 months left and an osage bw will probably knock it off.
Maple backed cherry is a great combo. I made one a couple years ago and I've only had one other bow made from HHB surpass it. unfortunately I gave that one away, so the maple backed cherry is still my go-to.
Maple backed cherry is the king!!...maybe.....probably not..... nah whatever.
Never had the pleasure of working osage. Doesn't grow where I live, but sometime I'll get around to acquiring some.
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"Badger are you suggesting that - osage just takes more punishment over time and breaks down slower? hence - "For some reason I always end up taking osage, for me it just seems to hold up the best in a high stress design." "
Arrow, I don't like to state things like that as fact, more of an opinion. Most of my bows seem to shoot about the same from any kind wood, if the dampness is up the whitewoods seem to lag a bit. But when I do get a bow that really shines for some reason it is usually osage or yew. I have had some really fast maple bows, I love maple but at some point they seem to breakdown from where they started, usually do to being shot at moisture levels different from where they were built at. I have osage bows older than dirt that just don't seem to change.
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IMHO all would depend on your level of expertise. For example, for beginners who prefer to have a shootable bow that can be made with minimal skill, hickory or oak would be better. For craftmen who need to produce dependable bows routinely, osage probably would be better. For experts who are willing to spend hours and hours to bring out the best in wood, almost any "bow wood" can be acceptable. But to sell their bows at a good price, they probably should use some wood that is not that easy to get or to work with. For record seekers who want to have an edge over others, I guess osage and yew would be the natural choice. As I personally prefer to be "primitive" in the sense that I like to make bows with whatever wood that is easily available, in a rather short period using mainly handtools, I go for oak and hickory. I guess a lot would depend on how many hours you are willing to spend on a bow.
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History doesn't lie. For whatever reason osage and yew have been the wood of choice. I'm sure other woods have been tried over the years and for one reason or other have failed to stand up against those two. Maybe they're as fast but not as durable or vice versa. In the end osage and yew topped the heap and I doubt that will change. Just my opinion.
Don
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Earl Ulrich was presented two bows, one of yew and one of osage. He looks at the osage bow and shakes his head, "osage..too heavy", then he grasps the yew bow and smiles, "yew, God's bow wood"
;D ;D ;D
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I don't think I made a comment on this thread. I have made quite a few Osage bows and there is no doubt that it is there at the top but then there is top grade Elm. Sometimes, very rare but occasionally, you cut an Elm that is just plain outstanding. Strong in tension and very elastic. If given top grade Osage and some of this Elm I would pick the Elm.
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Mark, I am going to start another thread that relates to this, your input would be good.
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Ah oo Here we go again !!
Gota love it !
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ERC! ERC! ERC!
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im only on pg 10.... whew!.. but i had to say this..from my limited experience building bows ive come to this conclusion...your gonna have to do SOMETHING to just about any other wood to make it perform and hold up to the KING ...heat..back...reflex...recurve..somethings gonna have to be done....OSAGE...you scrape and go! lol..( not literally of course)... O:)
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and now...on to pg. 11.... :o
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and now...on to pg. 11.... :o
You've got a long road ahead.
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Just wait till the poplar paddle/bow makes an appearance! Haha
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"Badger are you suggesting that - osage just takes more punishment over time and breaks down slower? hence - "For some reason I always end up taking osage, for me it just seems to hold up the best in a high stress design." "
Arrow, I don't like to state things like that as fact, more of an opinion. Most of my bows seem to shoot about the same from any kind wood, if the dampness is up the whitewoods seem to lag a bit. But when I do get a bow that really shines for some reason it is usually osage or yew. I have had some really fast maple bows, I love maple but at some point they seem to breakdown from where they started, usually do to being shot at moisture levels different from where they were built at. I have osage bows older than dirt that just don't seem to change.
Badger,
Understood. I didn't read it like you were professing to state it as fact but more of a opinion based on your experience over time. If a guy who has experience making 100's of bows from every kind of wood feels like he needs to reach for osage there is a reason for that. I really think that many tests that are done to determine the merits of certain materials specifically with wood fall short. There are so many variables as we all know even with the same species. The larger the numbers the more accurate the results. Right? In your case your experience has led you to say you reach for osage. You have the good fortune of TIME, LARGE NUMBERS, AND EXPERIENCE which bring you to that conclusion. Just my thinking. Now the subject of tests. I think a selection of 100 bows made from osage with the exact same design and mass along with 100 bows each from other woods to be compared each shot 10,000 times or some obscenely large number over a number of years would yield extremely accurate information. Of course it would be insane to try and do that on such a large scale. Based on what I know from those who love osage and those who have used it the results may very well lead them to conclude "I would reach for osage".
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lots of ppl prefer osage. but there are some who do not prefer osage. i have seasoned osage staves and billets. the last sage bow i made was back in February. when my hands want to make a bow, they reach for yew, juniper, or vinemaple. thats not to say that osage isnt a premium bow wood. bc it is.
osage isnt my "king of bow wood"
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I need to try these white woods everyone is boasting about. Then I will decide which is king >:D but I think it may be based off of opinions that aren't necessary, price, etc., and making that play a little bit of a role in their opinion. I like the workability of non osage woods but they seem not as substantial. I think osage is the ultimate "hunting" bow. Consistent, decently fast, doesn't dent easy, easy to work with hand tools(takes longer than yew but it likes hand tools!) it is more dependable and rugged, etc. It may not be a speed demon but if it is dependable I would use it more often than any others. It is like wearing your favorite pair of pants and the new skinny jeans my peers wear. My favorite pants are dependable and rugged but I could try to fit in some skinny jeans and who knows, it may make you look awesome or something might give :laugh: who knows what is going to happen because they aren't as substantial. I worked my yew bow and love it but if I went elk hunting I am toting my osage along just because I feel it is a better partner where yew is less dependable and dents and I don't feel it as dependable
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and for me Hickory is King. I think Ryoon referred to it as white gold once. I agree. I know it may not be the BEST bow wood but it's the best one I have access to and am currently most comfortable with... or at least the best one that I know I have access too....sometimes you just don't know what you don't know....you know?
And it sounds like for Marc Elm is King. or select elm. I keep forgetting about elm. I gotta try that one too.
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That's funny bandit! I hunt with a yew bow, and my back-up is a yew bow :) lol
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Elm was Nature's attempt to combine Osage and Yew in one tree.
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Elm was Nature's attempt to combine Osage and Yew in one tree.
An than it failed and turned into a white wood >:D there is a reason why gold and osage have the same color >:D LOL
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Osage tarnishes, Elm and Gold don't. >:D
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I love you guys. Finish finals a week from tomorrow! ;D
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. I worked my yew bow and love it but if I went elk hunting I am toting my osage along just because I feel it is a better partner where yew is less dependable and dents and I don't feel it as dependable
Yeah, yew is terribly undependable, especially for elk hunting. Note Bryce's look of shock in this picture is because he was so surprised his yew bow didn't just fall apart when he bagged this elk.
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/null_zps042397bf.png)
And Gordon only looks smug standing over this huge bull because he backed his yew bow with sinew otherwise it never would have survived to deliver the killing blow.
(http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy217/gferlitsch/2012%20Eagle%20Cap%20Hunt/EagleCap2012_59.jpg)
I'm glad we found out from you that yew is unreliable. Now we can go burn our yew stashes for firewood. What a relief! ;D
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Black Locust is my top wood. Fast as a shadow, and only twice as likely to throw me through a loop as Osage- but that works with my goals most of the time including 'be faster than fiberglass' ;D
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I love you guys. Finish finals a week from tomorrow! ;D
Good to hear from you kid !!
Keep up the good work !
Hope you can stop in to see us at Marshall !
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Good to hear from you,you see the issue is still being debated. Good luck on finals.
I am sure you will ace it as long as their are no questions about the best bow wood. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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I don't think anyone said Yew was unreliable. :-\ I guess from what I am reading if you kill a critter with a particular type of wood it is King. That being the case I have a pretty long list of best bow woods ,but ha there can be only 1 King. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D Got to love this stuff.I am just boared this morning. :)Nice Elk by the way and looks like an excellent shot. :)
Pappy
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Pappy, there is another wood we don't see a lot of here, they use it in decking sometimes. It goes by beefwood, bulletwood or massaranduba. I really think that would give osage a run for its money if we could get it in stave form. I like the way it looks like raw steak when freshly worked.
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Too many "if's" follow other woods around to make them King.
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Long ago, smart monarchs learned that nobody can be KING everywhere and decided to start respecting the sovereignty of other royal persons in other contexts. That is to say, unless he was itching for a fight, the king of Holland, didn't go marching around the central and interior parts of France claiming to be THE one and ONLY true king. Doing so had just proven to be stupid too many times prior.
So, among the royal families of Bow Woods, perhaps a similar sense of humility and mutual respect might be in order. In the desert southwest of the North American continent, perhaps there are a few fiefdoms where Juniper could be considered sovereign. Maybe there is a courtly estate in the pacific northwest where Ocean Spray, Vine maple, and Pacific Yew all vie for supremacy. Surely the mid-west is a part of the greater Reginum Osagium, but even there you'll find pockets where sundry pretenders to the thrown such as Black Locust, Hickory, and Eastern Red Cedar hold some sway. As you progress to the east you'll find continued loyalty to the Great Yellow King, but many divide their fealty and admit that Elm or Crepe Mertle is at least a high prince if not a rightful pretender to the high thrown. And scattered throughout all these regions are countless others, both native born and invaders, that have established themselves as worthy of royal appreciation. The friends of which have noticed that I've failed to mention and thus no doubt I’ve alienated myself from them forEVER!
...and that's just a brief review of one continent! SHEESH!
OneBow
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Ok gonna allow myself to comment on this debate again. ;D A couple thoughts of mine, keep in mind this is coming from someone who just makes bows and doesn't put a lot of thought into into the science of it. I've never worked
yew but have no doubt that I would love it, shot only one of em', made by Pearlie and it was sweet. If I had the bow building skill level of him or Bryce or Gordon and had a bunch of yew it might be my favorite wood, don't know.
I've used about 15 different woods cut from here in the midwest and will spend hours trying to get a bow out of any
old stave I can get my hands on just for the challenge and joy of bow making. As it turns out though my best shooters
and most durable and dependable hunting bows have come from osage, with black locust coming in a close second.
I spend quite a bit of time hunting and can be rough on bows and expose them to all kinds of extremes, cold, hot, wet, dry and abuses like accidently banging rocks and such while climbing, osage can take this abuse. That being said I kinda think black locust may knock osage off the top for me once I get a little better at working it into a bow. Just have a feeling that I'll get one made one day from locust that will out perform my best osage pound for pound
and locust seems to take abuses well like osage. The only question being will it still maintain that performance year after year like my osage bows seem to. So for me anyway, and from my experiences with the woods I've worked, and with my focus on hunting bows, ........ it's OSAGE.
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Badly, your feelings mirror mine. I have a love hate relationship with black locust, I have gotten a few screamers out of it, I have ruined my share because of chrysals and I have had all my good ones just let go one day, really not that many arrow through them maybe a 200 or so usually. But I love the way the bows feel and shoot if I do my part. Yew is my favorite to work with even though my designs seem to behave just a tad better with the osage. I need a little more practice with the yew I think.
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I was just looking at my bow rack and I do have one hanging on it. 62" long, 1" reflex. I love this bow but lack confidence in the black locust and tend to short draw it. Everytime I shoot it I put it on the scale first and pull it a full 28" several times, even hold it a few seconds. My draw is 26 1/2. Yet when I go to shoot it my past experience with locust that I treated the same way tells me it could blow any time. I just lack the confidence in it.
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I was just looking at my bow rack and I do have one hanging on it. 62" long, 1" reflex. I love this bow but lack confidence in the black locust and tend to short draw it. Everytime I shoot it I put it on the scale first and pull it a full 28" several times, even hold it a few seconds. My draw is 26 1/2. Yet when I go to shoot it my past experience with locust that I treated the same way tells me it could blow any time. I just lack the confidence in it.
im sittin here roughing out some BL billets and you gotta go and say a thing like that :(
anyways im buying VOL 3 and 4 now just so i can figure out this mass principal thing.
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I have a simple ex cel program you can download and just type in a few numbers for your mass estimate. Length, bow weight, how much set back in the limbs, length of stiff handle and fades and wether or not it is backed.
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I have a simple ex cel program you can download and just type in a few numbers for your mass estimate. Length, bow weight, how much set back in the limbs, length of stiff handle and fades and wether or not it is backed.
I would love to see that. I love a good excel spreadsheet. Oops, my nerd is showing :P
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Yeah i would like to see it too
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I will start a thread on it and anyone interested in using it can just send me an e email.
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seems like no one likes dents or scratches on there bows :-\
its a hunting weapon, whether yew or osage. shes gonna get some scars. ive dropped my bows in rivers, thrown them across creeks, used them to clear bushes. its a tool, just as my knife is a tool. if at one day it meets its doom, at least it went out like a champion with plenty of battle scars.
dent, and scratched dont bother me. just gives the bow more character :)
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seems like no one likes dents or scratches on there bows :-\
its a hunting weapon, whether yew or osage. shes gonna get some scars. ive dropped my bows in rivers, thrown them across creeks, used them to clear bushes. its a tool, just as my knife is a tool. if at one day it meets its doom, at least it went out like a champion with plenty of battle scars.
dent, and scratched dont bother me. just gives the bow more character :)
You also have to see that osage doesn't fluctuate in poundage half as much as yew and doesn't gain moisture like a white wood
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. I worked my yew bow and love it but if I went elk hunting I am toting my osage along just because I feel it is a better partner where yew is less dependable and dents and I don't feel it as dependable
Yeah, yew is terribly undependable, especially for elk hunting. Note Bryce's look of shock in this picture is because he was so surprised his yew bow didn't just fall apart when he bagged this elk.
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/null_zps042397bf.png)
And Gordon only looks smug standing over this huge bull because he backed his yew bow with sinew otherwise it never would have survived to deliver the killing blow.
(http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy217/gferlitsch/2012%20Eagle%20Cap%20Hunt/EagleCap2012_59.jpg)
I'm glad we found out from you that yew is unreliable. Now we can go burn our yew stashes for firewood. What a relief! ;D
Lol. I hope you know I just feel that way for my personal preferences I see in my bows. I have seriously been laughing at this for 10 minutes straight.
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Badger, yes that love/hate BL feeling I'm familiar with, I've had a few more that have failed on me than succeeded but the ones that made it I love. Two of which I used to flinch every time I drew them back for a few months and my draw is only 25" on a good day, finally figured out they were safe. I have three that have probably seen a couple thousand arrows each and they each go hunting with me from time to time, one even took a deer last week. I will say that they have each taken an extra 1/2" of set since initially made and broke in to present day, around two years of use.
Bryce, I'm ok with dents and scratches in my hunting bows. I've taken deer with elm and black walnut bows that were sapwood backs and dent quite easily, I was just more careful with them while out there. ;D I'll hunt with alot of different bows but osage is my main go to hunting bows. I trust it to be strung for hours and still shoot well and when I unstring it after 10 hours in rain, cold or heat it will recover shape right quickly. Not saying all others won't but in my collection I know the osage is the one I can count on to do this well.
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My yew bows have been to the dry high desert and in the low coastal rain forest. And in down pours. Never noticed a difference in shooting.
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Won't doubt you there Bryce, never had any yew myself so I don't have any first hand knowledge of that wood. Lots of experienced bowyers like you to the old timers love it for a reason beyond just its beauty. I'll get my midwesterner hands on some one day and give it a go. :)
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Lol. I hope you know I just feel that way for my personal preferences I see in my bows. I have seriously been laughing at this for 10 minutes straight.
I was just getting in on the trash talking. >:D
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Lol. I hope you know I just feel that way for my personal preferences I see in my bows. I have seriously been laughing at this for 10 minutes straight.
I was just getting in on the trash talking. >:D
8)
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i love the yella stuff,but elms good too!
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Lol. I hope you know I just feel that way for my personal preferences I see in my bows. I have seriously been laughing at this for 10 minutes straight.
I was just getting in on the trash talking. >:D
Dude that was one of the most hilarious things I've read in a long time. I was literally Laughing Out Loud!
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Osage can Yew see the King of Bow Woods, Hickory!
Ooooh SNAP!
.....or Oh CRAP depending on if it really did SNAP or just a little creaky crack....... either way that kinda sucks no matter what wood you got! :laugh:
I've never taken a deer or elk or bear with my Hickory bows but there's a good chance I may take the cat.......He can get really annoying sometimes. Not Del. He's awesome.
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I can't imagine living life without either yew or osage...
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Well Gordon we've always got out Vinemaple :)
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It's all good if it will make a bow,hope yall know this is all for fun anyway and no one takes this to serious. :) Even tho Osage is King. >:D ;) ;)
Pappy
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I can't imagine living life without either yew or osage...
Probably just golf or shop more eh' Gordon?
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Not sure how many here remember the whitewood wars in the 90's. Tim Baker was the leader on one side while Dean Torges was on the other. It got real bitter and it appeared that when they met at mojam for a showdown that a big gangfight might erupt. As it turned out Tim Bakers famous 86" long pecan bow won the contest and all became friends again. Mojam has persisted each year since. I have always felt they should have a contest between the white woods and osage each year just as a tradition.
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Well Gordon we've always got out Vinemaple :)
Yea, but I was hoping to keep that as our little secret ;)
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You guys can keep your viney....cus HHB is better >:D
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I gather the contest was for speed. Then the issue becomes what is the fastest bow wood. Any claimants?
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I thought we solved this issue on the LW 15 years ago. I guess not. LOL.
The osagians always dismiss the Sudbury. I almost got a chance to see it in Cambridge, MA.
How old is that Sudbury bow anyway? That hickory stuff must be pretty durable.
I think the Sudbury was taken from a Native American in the 1600's and probably left strung for a long time before someone figured out that was not the thing to do.
What? What is that you said?
How old is the oldest osage bow?
Not that old.
:)
Jawge
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SCP, when it comes to speed I doubt you will find a nickels worth of difference in the different woods. As discussed above durability, and moisture tolerance are very big issues where the osage seems to shine.
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oops posted on accident. please ignore.