Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: hurlbri1 on June 17, 2013, 11:30:34 am
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So I think I got 19 out of 50 decent 5/16" birch dowels to make arrows from (ordered from Woodcrafters someone suggested on this site). I think that might be a little high in terms of percentage from what most of you seem to get from the lumber yard or online...what makes me more nervous is the picture I found of an arrow splintered in someone's hand!
Now I am totally freaked out and uncertain of my selection. I don't care that the arrow breaks after hitting a tree--I've already trashed a set of Carbons (I am not that good at Archery just yet, ok?! :-[ ) So if I break a few dowels, it's easier on the pocket book.
However, I am NOT OK with getting an exploding arrow in my bow hand because I can't choose the right grain!!!
In short, I am freaked out now about making my own arrows. The bow I am making them for is 43# Hickory flatbow. Do I break the bank and order the pre-spined wood shafts from 3-Rivers? Do I go with the bamboo garden stake idea in the buildalong posted here?
How scared do I need to be with an exploding arrow in the hand?
Thoughts?
Thank you!!!
-Brian
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it's only a arrow in your hand, just think of it as a really big splinter >:D if you order shafts from a reputable company I would say the chances are slim to none
it's never happened to me and I've shot some questionable shafts
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over the years I've used several hundred 5/16 birch shafts including some not so straight. During the straightening....some would break. If they did not break during flexing and or straightening I have never had a single one break at the bow. Most all my bows are from middle 50#. They seemed to shoot very well from bows between high 30's to mid 50's.
Take it for what it's worth but I never had a single one break comin out of the bow.
rich
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While i have never had one explode on me, I do worry about that as well. When orienting the grain on your shafts, if you place the runout (if your shaft has any) on the top of the shaft so that it is pointing away from you as viewed from the nock end of the arrow - theoretically, if the shaft were to split along the run out, the sharp piece would go up and away from the shooters hand - and not result on the shard thru the webbing of the hand picture that we have all seen and cringe at.
I know there is a great pic / drawing of this, but I cant seem to find it. Hopefully someone else will post it for you if I cant find it.
Russ
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+1 on what Russ said. Run out on the top side towards the point.
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I saw a picture where a guy had and arrow through his wrist.
Test the shafts. Flex them and make sure there durable. If they pass then don't worry about it.
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I've only had one arrow break when shot in about 30 years of shooting and it had a crack I didn't know about when I shot it.
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Yeah ,, but did it end up in your jand Pat ,, this is the 40.00$ question. O:)
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Hit a POC shaft once on a tree, the tip end cracked and split for about 6"... but I shot it agian and it blew up on hitting the target.
shot a 1/4 ramin wood dowel, with fletches and the world's heaviest broadhead(it was a spear point I made, 3" wide, 2 oz) off of a #50 recurve... wore an arm guard for a good reason... it blew up literally.
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i had two 11/32 go on me at the last 3d i went to but i had not bind them
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The garden stake buildalong will do it, I've never broken a boo arrow on a primitive or fiberglass bow and I'm pretty rough on them, they are also more durable than the cedar from 3-ra (as much as I love the stuff).
Are you using self nocks?
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Straighten, then flex a bit, if nothing cracks, or fails, and the grain is oriented well, with no run off, or with the run off in a safe set up, then go for it. Besides, we need a new photo, of the exploded arrow through the hand. ;D ;D ::) Or just go with cane. ;) But if it fails, we want photos...... ::) :P ;D ;D ;D
Wayne
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I think of that as well. However I have shot some questionable shafts and been okay. I do check them closely if I hit one with another while target shooting (doesn't happen that often) or if I miss the target and hit a rock (happens more often than I like to admit).
Greg
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
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What Half eye and Youngbower said. I have shot lots of ash dowels out of primitive bows and out of modern fiberglass bows, I have never had one that survived straightening blow up. If you are really worried about it, there are several threads on how to make a spine tester, so you can spine your arrows and find out if they are underspined.
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If you shoot a rivercane shaft without a point into a 3/4 plywood target it will shatter the end of the shaft. Anyone nearby better duck, cause the frag hurts.
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It broke when I released the arrow. The string slapped my shoulder of my bow arm but the arrow fragments went elsewhere. I was lucky but one arrow in 30 years ain't too bad. I have wood arrows(POC) that have been shot thousands of times and are still in good shape.
A frozen turd could fall from a leaky airplane and hit you on the head but it is not likely. ;)
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
About 3 weeks ago I had a locust 44 lb self bow blow out a nock that was not reinforced ::) That in effect caused the bow to dry fire and a pin knot that I accidently sanded down too far began to blow out down the limb toward the tip, i was like :o :( cause that bow was fast , had some character and smooth as butter to shoot.
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In high school gym class we had one day of archery. I am not sure what the arrows were made of, but the bows were the cheap plastic ones with about 15 pounds of draw.
The kid next to me shot the arrow off his knuckle instead of the arrow rest. Next thing I know his hand is impaled on half of the arrow. It was ugly. The arrow had a splinter that caught his hand and once it started it just kept going.
To this day, I refuse to shoot off of my hand. ALL of my bows have an arrow rest. It might not even make a difference, safety wise, but it makes me feel better.
Patrick
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If they don't have bad grain run off or like was said put it to the top and be sure the spine is heavy enough,and also check them often after shooting especially if someone else is pulling you arrows and you won't have any problems. I check arrows and nocks pretty regular as walking the range or stump shooting. I have shot many thousands of cain and wood and have only had 1 break and that was the first set I tried 35 years ago and they were 5/16 shot out of a 60+lb bow,no idea what the spine was ,but very weak. :) I have had a few nocks break but that was because I or someone else hit them while shooting and I didn't check them,so I try to look at the regular if I am shooting at a bail with someone else ,the guys I shoot with are nock hunters,they love to bust your nock if they can. >:(
Pappy
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Awesome responses! Thank you all so much! I definitely feel better...inspect, flex, inspect some more, shoot, inspect some more--I get it! Also, if there's some run off, orient the shaft so that the run off points upward. Got it. Whew...
If I do impale myself, I promise to add pictures ;)
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Never had a problem with birch dowels. I get about one good one for every four I purchase online (1:4 ratio). Be picky and you'll be fine.
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
Dude
Bows are Bows
Gizmos and gimmicks do not make them better !
I have shot a few thousand shots with cedar arrows through them so called "fast compounds ", They don't appear to me to break anymore wood arrows than my slow Primitive bows do !
Just the opinion of one worthless old nut ,that has been there and done that , take it or leave it !
Good arrows are good arrows and junk is junk !!!
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I had a POC arrow give me four nights in the hospital along with 3 hours of surgery. It had a crack in front of the fletching I didn't know about. It caught behind the knuckle of my index finger and just kept on splintering coming out of a 60# bow. I had one small piece of wood and fletching sticking out of my hand and about 4" inside of my hand, thus the 3 hours of surgery. The Surgeon said he had a heck of a time getting all of the cresting paint out.
If I even think one is cracked now I go ahead and break it.
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If I even think one is cracked now I go ahead and break it.
Dont blame you at all.
Damn, that hurts just thinking about it. All healed, I hope?
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Man after reading all this I think I might start wearing a leather glove on my left hand. Never even thought about an arra coming apart in your hand like that.
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Ya a lot don't realize how much an arrow bends when it is shot,if you ever get a chance watch a slow motion of an arrow of the bow,if they have a flaw the will break,that's why I check them over good when I get them and after they are shot
on a pretty regular basis,if they have a line in them or a flaw or the nock has been damaged I repair them or break them and throw um away. :) Not wanting to scare anyone but it is something you should keep and eye on just like you do your bow. :)
Pappy
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at one point when I had some modern arrows, I put a piece of soda-can alumnium over my left hand and shot off my knuckle. if i had something heavier, it would work quite well. The piece I used pretty much was a scalene triangle with a corner bent over my knuckle. It was to prevent the vanes from cutting me hand.
I think with something thicker, such as maybe 18-20 ga alumnium, it would probably prevent you from hurting yourself with a damaged arrow.
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
Not true.
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
Not true.
Iagree,
see above post on locust bow splitting nock. i have seen bows shooting near 200 fps (simple self bows) .
I am kinda new to this but a primitive self bow made correctly is just as capable as any F@#$% glass bow.
Primitive or simple doesn't = slow by any means. My hickory bow has a point on distance of 48 yards w a 29 inch arrow. So be aware of the hazards of shooting any type of shafting material.
Greg
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
Dude
Bows are Bows
Gizmos and gimmicks do not make them better !
I have shot a few thousand shots with cedar arrows through them so called "fast compounds ", They don't appear to me to break anymore wood arrows than my slow Primitive bows do !
Just the opinion of one worthless old nut ,that has been there and done that , take it or leave it !
Good arrows are good arrows and junk is junk !!!
You guys can shoot all the wooden shafts you want out of compound bows, but you won't catch me doing it. And I'll explain why.
Modern bows are much faster, often in the ballpark of 350 fps, whereas over 200 fps is pretty good for a trad bow. There may be a handful of trad bows that have broke the 300 mark, but how many of us are shooting one of them really? The vast majority of trad archers are shooting bows that are right around 200fps give or take.
Its not initially obvious, but some quick calculations reveal that going from a speed of 200fps, to 350fps with the same arrow and draw length, actually triples the force applied to the arrow. That's right, triples.
So unless you're comfortable tripling the force you're putting on them, a wooden arrow spined for a traditional bow should not be shot from a compound of a similar draw weight because the arrow speeds, and thus the force applied to the arrows, is much different.
But I suppose if you spined the shafts specifically for shooting out of higher speed modern bow, then I suppose it could be made safe. But you would need to take this into account. It is not a good idea to take your regular trad arrows and put them through a compound without verifying how fast the compound is and how stiff those arrows really are. Sure it may work a time or two, it may even work dozens of times, but you're rolling the dice with each shot.
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A 65# arrow is a 65# arrow shot through any bow with or w/o wheels will be fine.
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Most trad and primitive bows don't have the speed or power to break arrows in that way, so you don't need to worry hardly at all about that unless you are shooting in the warbow weight class.
But the modern compounds do, so don't go putting your arrows through one of them.
Ugh what ??! not true at all ! I had an aluminum arrow fold over through a wooden bow
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aluminum,really ??? must have been a really weak one. ;) :) twisted hickory ,point on has nothing to do with speed,it all depends on where you anchor. You can make point on anywhere you want it by moving anchor up or down. As far as speed a 200fps selfbow it is a screamer,as far as selfbows being as capable as modern equipment,well of course they are but still not as fast. Kind of a hijack here, ??? :) Sorry, just keep a close eye on the arrow for flaws and make sure it is spined heavy enough and you won't have any problems with the exploding. ;)
Pappy
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aluminum,really ??? must have been a really weak one. ;) :) twisted hickory ,point on has nothing to do with speed,it all depends on where you anchor. You can make point on anywhere you want it by moving anchor up or down. As far as speed a 200fps selfbow it is a screamer,as far as selfbows being as capable as modern equipment,well of course they are but still not as fast. Kind of a hijack here, ??? :) Sorry, just keep a close eye on the arrow for flaws and make sure it is spined heavy enough and you won't have any problems with the exploding. ;)
Pappy
Pappy,
Point on does have lots to do with speed. The first adult self bow I made has a point on of 35 yards with a 29" bop arrow, 54 lbs, and a 27 inch draw. when I am anchored at the corner of my mouth. My current shooter when anchored at the same place using the same arrows has a point on of 48 yards. My buddys glass bow with the same shooter (me) 50 yards. I didn't explain I was assuming a consistent normal anchor. True self bows are not quite as fast as modern equipment but close enough for me :) half of the fun is making it :)
Slack bunny,
Comparing compounds to self or glass bows is a diffent animal all together. ;)
Greg
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lots of fun and that is all I shoot, have for years. :)
Pappy
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Are we using the new math or the old math to figure this out ? !!
Half eye uses 5/16 dowel shafts I don't , he answered the original question !
Too many pieces to this puzzle to explain how all the rest of these gimmicks work or don't , so like Pappy said use good arrows that are stiff enough to get the job done and keep a good eye on them ! All is good
Use junk, or not pay attention and all is not so good !
If we are satisfied with the fun we are having then we ain't out chasing speed demons and ghost !
I am having fun so don't knock my way with modern is better , cause it don't get any better than this !
I am sorry if that I helped high jack this thread ,but it is really hard for me to sit by and read misleading info passed on as truth ! I have wasted enough time and energy chasing pipe dreams
Have fun
Guy
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A 65# arrow is a 65# arrow shot through any bow with or w/o wheels will be fine.
I hate to be blunt, but that is just plain wrong. I've done the math.
The arrow does not care what the draw weight of the bow is, it only cares about its own acceleration.
A compound bow can take a 60 lb draw and turn that into more arrow speed than a 60 lb trad bow over the same draw length due its mechanical superiority and greater efficiency. This means the arrow has a significantly larger acceleration in a compound than it does in a trad bow. And since f=ma, the force applied to that arrow is also increased by the same factor even though the draw weights are the same.
An arrow that has been shot hundreds of times through your 60lb trad bow, may very well fracture when shot from your 60lb compound.
Are we using the new math or the old math to figure this out ? !!
Half eye uses 5/16 dowel shafts I don't , he answered the original question !
Too many pieces to this puzzle to explain how all the rest of these gimmicks work or don't , so like Pappy said use good arrows that are stiff enough to get the job done and keep a good eye on them ! All is good
Use junk, or not pay attention and all is not so good !
If we are satisfied with the fun we are having then we ain't out chasing speed demons and ghost !
I am having fun so don't knock my way with modern is better , cause it don't get any better than this !
I am sorry if that I helped high jack this thread ,but it is really hard for me to sit by and read misleading info passed on as truth ! I have wasted enough time and energy chasing pipe dreams
Have fun
Guy
I never said modern is better. I love my trad bows more than I could ever love a compound. But the fact is that modern bows are faster, and not just a little faster, a lot faster. This needs to be taken into account if you are going to shoot wooden arrows through it because it directly affects the force that the arrow sees. Most wooden arrows are intended for and spined for use with trad bows. This is not enough to ensure they are strong enough to withstand the compound speeds.
And I am using basic math here. Its just the kinematic equations of distance, time, speed, and acceleration and newton's law, f=ma. This is tried and true stuff, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. I can show you my work if you want.
If you are going to shoot wooden arrows from a compound bow, they need to be stiffer than arrows used for a similar weight trad bow.
Sorry if I hijacked the thread a bit. I just can't let a safety issue like that go unrecognized. I just made the compound reference in passing to warn him that while those shafts he has are fine for just about any trad bow, they may not be good enough for a compound. And then a few people disagreed with my statement, so I thought i should set the record straight.
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Slackbunny I don't think any of us are shooting compound contraptions so I don't think we care much about them There was no reason for you to even bring Them up
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Slackbunny I don't think any of us are shooting compound contraptions so I don't think we care much about them There was no reason for you to even bring Them up
I'm sure there are a number of people here who shoot a variety of different bows, myself included.
I only brought compounds up in passing to make sure that hurlbri1 knew that he shouldn't use his trad arrows in them even though they were safe for his trad bows. I never intended it to be anything more than that.
But then I was told that I was wrong, and I knew that wasn't true, and I did not want anyone here to read the thread and then think that it was okay to go back and forth between trad and modern bows using their trad arrows without second thought.
Were it not a safety issue, I wouldn't have pressed the point.
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Slackbunny I don't think any of us are shooting compound contraptions so I don't think we care much about them There was no reason for you to even bring Them up
I'm sure there are a number of people here who shoot a variety of different bows, myself included.
I only brought compounds up in passing to make sure that hurlbri1 knew that he shouldn't use his trad arrows in them even though they were safe for his trad bows. I never intended it to be anything more than that.
But then I was told that I was wrong, and I knew that wasn't true, and I did not want anyone here to read the thread and then think that it was okay to go back and forth between trad and modern bows using their trad arrows without second thought.
Were it not a safety issue, I wouldn't have pressed the point.
Well this is a primitive archery forum not a compound contraption forum
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My posts have all been based on the usage of trad/primitive arrows, so I'm pretty sure I still fit firmly in the category.
I gave a simple, safety-minded piece of advice. That advice was challenged. I defended it to the best of my ability. If you want to get petty about it then I'm done with this thread.
I've made my point. Take it or leave it.
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Uuuuuhhhh... (whoever started this thread) Some dowels have grain runout right below where people cut nocks in... and if you shoot it off of a powerful traditional bow it can split out your self nock. Wrap your arrow-shaft about 1/8 inch below the nock with thread, and it won't happen. But don't shoot modern compound arrows out of a primitive bow(especially a longbow.. especially carbons) with a heavy arrowhead, or they will most likely break or bend(if made of metal)... and it can hurt.
Just be smart about shooting stuff. Then you will be fine ;)
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Uuuuuhhhh... (whoever started this thread) Some dowels have grain runout right below where people cut nocks in... and if you shoot it off of a powerful traditional bow it can split out your self nock. Wrap your arrow-shaft about 1/8 inch below the nock with thread, and it won't happen. But don't shoot modern compound arrows out of a primitive bow(especially a longbow.. especially carbons) with a heavy arrowhead, or they will most likely break or bend(if made of metal)... and it can hurt.
Just be smart about shooting stuff. Then you will be fine ;)
All kinds of mis information floating around on this thread. Carbons and aluminum arrows shoot real good out of glass bows and all wood bows.
And from a safety stand point, thanks, slackbunny, you are right. Just make sure your shafts are good, personnally I don't shop for arrows at a hardware store if I am worrieing about one coming apart.
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Uuuuuhhhh... (whoever started this thread) Some dowels have grain runout right below where people cut nocks in... and if you shoot it off of a powerful traditional bow it can split out your self nock. Wrap your arrow-shaft about 1/8 inch below the nock with thread, and it won't happen. But don't shoot modern compound arrows out of a primitive bow(especially a longbow.. especially carbons) with a heavy arrowhead, or they will most likely break or bend(if made of metal)... and it can hurt.
Just be smart about shooting stuff. Then you will be fine ;)
All kinds of mis information floating around on this thread. Carbons and aluminum arrows shoot real good out of glass bows and all wood bows.
And from a safety stand point, thanks, slackbunny, you are right. Just make sure your shafts are good, personnally I don't shop for arrows at a hardware store if I am worrieing about one coming apart.
You have any idea how many carbons and alumniums I have broken or bent shooting them off of a #40 longbow (with a 3" brace height)? Actually is usually the nock, not the actual shaft. But it happens a lot. I suspect that I am damaging the shafts when they glance off of branches and roots and rocks, but not noticing the damage, then shooting them again.... and they break.
If you have a wide bow(more than 2" at the handle) and strong nocks on modern carbon or alumnium arrows THEY WILL bend or break from the extreme stress- I have 3 carbons with breaks right infront of the fletches. Modern arrows are designed to flex somewhat, but not nearly as much as a wooden arrow for a longbow. They are designed for a centershot compound or modern recurve, not a longbow where the shaft must paradox around the grip. a compound has an almost shock acceleration, as the let-off almost shocks the arrow enough to bend it. carbon or alumnium shafts are much stiffer. For proof take a carbon shaft and put it in a spine tester... or alumnium... alumnium shafts don't take branch hits well.
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If you are shooting a 2" wide at the handle bow with a 3"brace height there is you answer for why your nocks are snapping. A nock is not made for side to side stress. And I am very curious as to how you can shoot a 3" brace. I am sure with those jute strings that they stretch enough to kill your hand after release.
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If you are shooting a 2" wide at the handle bow with a 3"brace height there is you answer for why your nocks are snapping. A nock is not made for side to side stress. And I am very curious as to how you can shoot a 3" brace. I am sure with those jute strings that they stretch enough to kill your hand after release.
+1
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This thread got me thinking of packing a cane arrow up with black powder, inserting a primer cap, and putting a field point over the cap.... That really sounds like fun to me... :D
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;) ;D ;D ;D still at it. :)
Pappy
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For the heck of it, I will say the young kid has a point. Modern arrows are spined for center shot bows. They dont have to paradox around a wide handle like we shoot from. His bow he mentioned has a 2 inch wide handle ( huge ) and an arrow that isnt supposed to paradox much is being forced around a corner on his bow. He does have an extreme situation, but I would believe he is correct in his extrema situation. He is making arrows do what they were not intended to do, so I think they could break on him.
Now, why and how the 2 inch wide handle you mention and 3 inch brace height?
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Stuffing a Jutte string inside of a plastic nock probably doesen't help the stress situation, either.
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Stuffing a Jutte string inside of a plastic nock probably doesen't help the stress situation, either.
nope, it doesn't. but usually the nocks break on the alumnium, the shaft itself on carbons.
You should have seen my wrist after shooting with the 3" brace height... it was bumpy. didn't hurt a lot.
Funny thing though, self nocks don't seem to break on that particular bow(my old string for the longbow, made it the length of the bow... could only twist so far)
Not even the willow ones.
Even with a 1.5" wide handle on a stiff-handle elm shortbow, with a 5" brace height(and 2" limbs.. I posted about its sister stave) I still break the modern arrows.
Now, with my longbow, it has a copper arrow plate, 5" or so brace height, etc. You know the specs. I still break carbon shafts right above vanes. Nocks are perfectly fine. I have only broken 1 plastic nock on the carbons. I have broken either shaft, nock, or both on almost every alumnium.
All I had for a while was carbon arrows and that bow.