Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: Timo on July 11, 2009, 12:06:46 pm
-
Been watching along with Ralph thread on his sinew, all horn bow and have been intrigued.The current PA mag has an article on American buffalo horn bows by Tom Ressler. After reading it I knew it was time to stick my neck out and make one. I have always wanted to do it, just never really had any ideas as to how to go about it. Tom's recent bit has helped a bunch and he has been tutoring me along the process via emails.
I have taken several pics and kept track of a few things along the way.The bow isn't done yet,so this will get drawn out as the sinew dries, so bear with me.
I'll try to post a few pics and story line every day for those with interest.
The search for horn lead me to a few online sources,I wanted this bow to be a bit longer than most of the plains bows, I found a pair of 16" horns,from an ebayer.
I layed out my template on a piece 2" masking tape,cut it out and transferd it to the horn, then I sprayed it with some white paint,peeled the tape. A good line to follow.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I layed out my core from an osage slat of 1/2" thick,quarter sawn.I was shooting for a 52-54" bow,the horn had the length,if I could get it cut out right.
Cutting found me scratching my head,I tried a dremel first, then settled on a hand held jig saw with a fine cut blade.Just took a few minutes. This it what I came up with.
More later.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
ok, awesome!
keep it coming
-
While I was cutting the first horn I had some water on the stove and getting up to boil. I then shut it off and put the horn in to set over night. Next evening I brought it back up to boil and left it there for a couple hrs. Then removed the horn to check it,and it was ready. With help from my daughter we managed to get it clamped down and somewhat straightend out. Not as easy as one might think, the horn doesn't want to comform to anything other than what it is used to. I found that I had some thin spots in the horn that would be a problem later. ???
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
After setting for bout 24hrs, I removed the clamps to check my work....Not bad.
Tom said that 1/4" thick horn would work well and I had some areas that made that thickness,but there were 2 areas through the length of the horn that I knew (after clean up) that they would only be 1/8".Nothing to do but carry on I guess?
Here is a couple pics of the horn right off the form. Second pic shows the thin areas.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Thanks Timo . I've never seen a horn strip taken from around the horn, sense it crosses the grain. You look like you were careful to lay it out so that the strip is almost completely 90 degrees to the grain . I think it will work (being completely across grain it won't run out anywhere) if you don't split it while straightening the horn, and maybe not use a huge amount of reflex .
Osage is very heavy ,So I would make the bending parts of the core as thin as you can. How do you plan to straighten the strips ?
Ralph
-
The core is a straight forward piece of osage,that I glued a small handle on.54" overall length,1 3/8" wide for bout 4" then straight taper to 1/2" tip. I added some deflex in the glue up,then reflexing the tips about 2".Here is a pic of the horn after I had it flattened and ground down for glueing to the core.
Next I'll glue the horn to the core.Stay tuned.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Looking good so far, Tim. Thanks for the build along. There is a horn bow in my future but when, I can't say. ;D
-
Looking great so far, thanks for the build along ! I'll be keeping an eye on this one.
I have a few sets of Buffalo horn i saved from the butcher shop that i would like to try on something like this one day.
John
-
After I got the first horn under my belt, I figured out a few things to do different,always seems that way. Instead of letting the horn set over night in hot water,and then boiling, I went ahead and just boiled it,for bout 4 hrs. It seemed ready,but I had a harder time with it. I think that letting them set over night in the water bath made a good difference.Next one I do I will let them soak.
After both horns were ready, I tillered my core wood. Perty straight forward on this,so I didn't take any pics.I just went with what my eyes told me.Tom says to tiller the core to 20-30 # as the horn and sinew will add a great deal of poundage to the bow.Since these horns were thinner than what he said, I took the wood down to 43# @ 26". Drawing it several times on the tree.
I then clamped her up and used a toothing iron to score the wood and the horn. I cleaned everything well with acetone and got my hide glue ready.
I used a mix of 1 part knox,to 3 parts water,and let it reconstitute before I added it to the heat. When it was ready I then brushed a good coat of glue onto both wood and horn, and let it set for 20 miins.
Here is a couple pics showing the bow /scored and wet with glue.And the same on the horn.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
After 20 mins the glue is perty much dry to the touch.I then applied another wet coat of warm glue and let it set for 3 mins,then applied the horn to the wood. You can see my clamping system on this one.I get these big rubber bands from an application of my work.I have lots of them so I figured they would make a good clamp.They did ok for the most part, but I think next time I will just use clamps,As I had a couple spots that showed a glueing error.(my bad). ;)
I left it over night and most of the next day before I removed the clamps. Here is a few pics of how the clamps worked out and what the bow looked like after I removed it. Sorry the last pic is out of focus. >:(
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
As I said,I had a couple spots that bothered me,so I heated up some glue and thinned it down a good bit,took a syringe and shot some in the bad spots,then used the heat gun to liquify it.I then clamped it back and watched it squeeze out, so then I knew I had some glue in there.
After a couple days I cleaned up the edges of the horn and worked out the tiller.
I have a good friend in Iowa,"John Stutevant" who makes probly the best bbo and horn(gemsbock) bellied bows I have ever seen. He has kept records over the years of how much weight the horn adds to a bow. His record read that app 1/8" horn adds 5-10#,I was hoping for 10# , but after I got the tiller like I wanted, It weighed in 48# only gaining app 5#. The sinew will add quite a bit so hoping to get at least a 55# bow from this deal.
Heres a couple more pics of the belly showing the horn,and the profile I have, ready for sinew.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Very cool, Tim.
-
Did you taper the horn at the fades?
-
Thanks Pat.
Radius, I glue it on full thickness and then filed it into the fade,so yes I guess it would be tapered.
True horn bows had the horn running into the handle and meeting,sometimes haveing a horn splice under the handle.
-
Wow, I never thought to cut a horn out like that.
Looking good.
Thanks,
Frank
-
Excellent thread....looking forward to the rest. :)
-
Many threads on here about laying sinew so I will for go it for the most part,but here are a few pics I took yesterday of the process.
First thing I do is lay out my sinew bundles on a towel,lay another over them and then sprinkle with water until the towels are soaked,I get my glue rehydrating then after a few mins I remove the top towel ,(the bundles will be wet now) and I manage them in a better order,lay them on another towel and get them organized. Again laying over with a towel and keeping them wet. This just makes things run smoother.This whole sinew job only took about 30 mins.
I try to save rain water for my hide glue.Medicine maybe? ha I mixed it the same as I did for my horn/core glue up. Then it kinda old hat with the laying of the bundles.
I just went with one good layer here,with another strip down the center,also Tom told me to run a layer over the edge and overlap the horn about an 1/8".I tried the best I could to do that,but missed a spot or two. Terrible ugly right after the sinew is layed.I remember the first time I did some....I thought,"There is no way that is ever gonna look like anything"! The native americans get a tip of the cap from me I tell ya!
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Somthing of interest has arose. The bowl that I use for sinew is also the bowl I use to cook my pine pitch. I always clean it well and burn it out before use. For some reason I couldn't get it as clean this time and went ahead and used it for my glue. Well.....when the sinew began to dry I noticed these lil black specs under the sinew. For the life of me I could not figure out where they came from......Finally figured it out when I was doing my clean up. The charring left from when I burned out the bowl had left some black residue similar to lamp black, but it was stuck to the bowl,(or so I thought)? The hide glue loosened it and it went into the sinew.So now my bow has black specs in it. Good medicine again? Or trouble later? ???
Here are a couple pics showing the black specs and the sinew over the edge of the horn. Actually kind a cool looking.
Gotta let the sinew dry for a spell so it will be a while before we move on. Thanks in advance for those with interest.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
i like those black fleks, timo, even if you didn't intend for them to be there...
i'm looking forward to seeing the rest!
-
Tim, you sure that ain't some kinda mold like stuff growing under or within the glue? Every bow I've sinewed done that. ???
-
Perty sure it's not Shannon, As soon as the sinew started turning clear they showed up. I had a fan on it most of the day, so it started drying perty quick.I really noticed it when I was cleaning the bowl as the black suet started flaking off.I guess the hide glue loosened it.
I ain't gonna worry about it now. ;)
-
Layed another layer of sinew on the horn bow tonight.mainly just to fill in the low spots.had company come out of the wood work and there I was hide glue dripping off my elbows......Lots of locals now know a few things about sinew! ;D
Wished this stuff dried fasters....i'm getting stoked to fire this lil bow up! ;)
-
Timo, awesome build-a-long. I'm learning so much and not all of it is about horn bows. Can't wait to see that little screamer finished.
Dave
-
Timo, this is just too cool a ride, thanks for doing it. I would never have thought about cutting the horn out in a spiral like that, all of them I've seen done in books were cut out longways, limiting you to a short li' bow. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the trip, you've got me hankering to try one of these now.
-
Hey Timo, great build along.
I was like you, saw that article in PA and knew it was time finally get at one of these. The bison horn I have is quite a bit shorter (~10"). When you laid out your template could you get it fairly flat along the horn? In order to get my template around the horn without overlapping, the template wasn't very flat. So when I went to boil and clamp, the horn had a pretty good curve to it (not the coil curve; I mean if it was uncoiled and laid flat, it would look like a crescent moon). Did you have this sort of issue at all? Can you just muscle it straight? The horn seemed to cool off very quickly and I couldn't get it to work out for me the first time out. I have a couple horns though, so that was mostly just a test to see what worked best. Also the horn seemed pretty brittle and dry after soaking a day and boiling. How about yours?
Thanks for any info you can provide on this. Yours is looking great so far, looking forward to seeing it done!
-
This is awesome
-
To keep the horns from getting brittle ,and to give me more working time , I soak them in milk or diluted hide glue .The Mongols do it this way too .
I soak them for a few weeks , When they are ready they will bend pretty good without any heat ,But I heat them up, still in the milk (newer not so stinky milk ) And when they are hot ,not quite boiling ,I have about a minute or a little more to get the horn clamped . I think the water leaches and then cooks some of the proteins out of the horn...making them brittle.
Ralph
-
Tom Ressler sparked my interest in building these bows. He tole me that he got all the secrets from some native american elders. So I have to give him the credit,and he in turn will credit those who taught him,as it should be. He also has many more secrets that he has yet to devulge I think. ;) Either way it's very interesting as to how they,(native americans) came up with this. And how they did it all with stone tools? :o ??? Amazing stuff to ponder me thinks.
Ralph I have recently read about the milk and the hide glue soak.I just did the water bath as I knew very little about any of it,but I am learning now. Your thoughts gather my interests.
Hillbilly, I hope this ride ends with success!
Barrage, I used masking tape for my template, and yes it did not lay down real well,I just cut outside the lines a bit.I had a lil trouble with what you are talking about,but these horns where thin, so I could manipulate them fairly easy.I also set some drywall screws along the edges where I needed them to help hold the horn straight.Not sure if you can see them in the pics or not?I did however straighten them more after I removed them form the form, with the heat gun.stuff is rubber after a couple mins of heat. Didn't seem to dry to me.
Somthing of interests: I have had this bow over the air cond vent for a few days now and it has not reflexed any. Not sure as to why? Every bow I have ever sinew backed has reflexed.
-
Thanks Timo.
I'll have to try it out on another horn and seen how it goes. I had let mine soak in water for a couple days before I boiled - maybe that caused some issued with the brittleness. I had also read about the Mongols soaking horns in milk for days; seems to make sense from a leaching aspect. I actually noticed after looking at your pics again that you had some of that crescent curve when clamping too. Not quite as bad as your horns are bigger. Good to see you got them straight though. Mine wanted to buckle in a couple spots while trying to get them straight. I think a longer boil and more clamps might solve it though after looking at your setup and boil times.
I also thought about cutting them straight and doing a butt joint; anyone ever tried that? Just creating a hinge at the butt joint?
-
Man that is going to be wicked once it's finished. You could probably harvest some more horn with it after your finished with it, all you need now is a horse trained not to buck when your riding next to a bison herd >:D
-
I;ve had the lil bow in the hot box/dehumidified room for the last 7 days.
:It has not lost any physical weight in the last 4 days.
:it never gained any reflex.(mainly due in part that I wrapped the sinew over the sides and onto the belly a bit)
:The tiller changed very little.
: the sinew added 5# to the draw weight.
I know this because I strung it up tonight and shot it several times.I was a little concerned as the humidity outside is horrible right now, I know it had to soak up some,but no matter,I shot it anyhow. Very damp in the the hand and plenty of punch.Actually surprised myself as to the speed it had. Whisper quiet also.All in all I am pleased with the outcome. Seemed to take more set than I figured it might. but no worries.
No pics yet but I will get some for ya all soon.Then It's time to doll it up a bit.:)
More later.
-
Shot the lil bow some more today.I am liking it more and more,I had some trouble with the shorter draw length,but I'm working on it. here are a few pics of the bow after it has been perty much shot in.I'm sure the sinew will continue to cure,but it seems perty solid for the most part. It seems to have settled in @ 54# @ 26".Plenty enough for me. It shows some fatigue after a good round of shooting, but always comes back after rest, to about 5/8" set. The tiller is off a bit to me, I've had a hard time seeing it.I usually go with a more circlular tiller,but this one is more eliptical, so it gives me some troubles. I think it's in the bottom limb. The pic shows the bottom limb tip more open than the top? It's a very well mannered bow though.All in all I'm well pleased.
I have some short copperhead skins that I think I'll apply. Was hoping to find some smaller diamondbacks,but fell short. Then do some research as to some painting on the side limbs,limb string wraps,and the grip,so it'll be a while before that is all done.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Tiller looks fantastic!
-
I think it looks great Timo....you just ain't used to looking at an Ellipse....I think you about nailed it.....Good Job
-
he nailed it alright, it's great!
-
I agree, looking right on. Nice job. 8)
-
That Bow looks awesome! Great job.
-
Super idea! Nice result!
Regards Uwe
-
Great job on this one Tim, Always great to watch you work. BTW em shorts make your butt look hughmongis. ;D
-
Well big butt I ain't got dano.... It is tight though.:) ::)
Go some skins on it yesterday.I found a couple small bull snakes that matched perty well. I mixed me up a small batch of hide glue,brushed a thin coat on the limbs,pulled the skins out of the water bath,wiped them dry and brushed a coat on them. then I just layed them down,a few minor adjustsments, and boom...Bob your uncle !:)
Had them trimmed off in 5 mins and they were set...... I swear hide glue just sucks thing together.Not sure why I use anything else?
I removed scales tonight and then had to skin another copperhead.I swear them things are thick this year...(Sorry got side tracked there).Anyhow, the skins turned out well. Gotta get me some paints tomorrow and so some art work on it,then I'll start the finishing process. Turning into a sweet lil bow.
Thanks for the kudus on the tiller boys.:)
-
Maybe it was just the shorts ;D
Seriously, nice work bud.
-
Tim, that's a bada$$ bow. Tiller looks great to me, looking forward to seeing some finished pics.
-
That is one fantastic looking bow. Would love to have one just like it. Would be perfect on those long mule rides to the mountains. Very good work! Pokie
-
Great looking bow. I'm envious.Ronnie
-
Lil progress report. Here is a pic of what the skins look like, with scales removed and ready for finish.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I've never painted a bow before, so this is all new to me. Sat down and thought about what I wanted,did lots of research,and stole some ideas from Tom's bows.
I started with a base coat of white,then layed out my marks,and initialed them so I would'nt end up with a mess. I then painted in the black areas,then finished off with the red. I got tired and my eyes were stressed so I quit for the night.Gonna lay a few yellow dots inside the red bands,so it's not quite done.
Not real sure what all the different colors signify,or the bands, but I am betting they meant something? I'll have to email Tom and maybe he can fill me in.
The more I work on this bow, the more I admire the native americans and how they accomplished what they did.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
That bow is lookin really cool! I like the paint design...looks almost like a damn coral snake...but then it's a different snake on the back...but then it looks like polished horn on the belly....damn...that thing has multiple personalities! I'll bet that's what the deer are gonna be saying when they see it. I can hear 'em now... "Wow...look at that thing...what is it? It kinda looks like a..." FFFFFFFTTTT Thump! "AGGHHH!! That thing we were looking at just shot me! Help MArge! Where the hell are you running off to? Come back and help me, you useless wench! Oohh....it's getting dark...I feel so weak......I feel so cold.....I think I'll just lie down right here....." :) :) :)
-
To funny there Billy! ;D
You made me wonder about a name though.I wonder what word the lakota used for multiple personalities? ???
-
I don;t know....but I know that Eddie(Mullet) Parker is .....maazhamegos ag.....in Ojibwa.......... >:D
-
They used to call em, "dog with three heads" ;D
-
I've had the lil bow in the hot box for a week and it only lost 1/4oz in weight.tips the scales at 16.75 ozs. I always hot box my bows for a good period before I seal them and then I start the sealing process imediately out of the box, so the wood is dry. Got a couple coats on the bow today. I should have the finish done this week,then the handle and some more dressings.I'll post some pics later this week I hope.
I love the way the horn looks with finish on it. Almost hate to give it a dulling! ???
-
Not much to update. I have the finish done,but work and life have taken front row for a bit.
I plan on doing some work on it tonight,just not quite sure about my handle yet....Maybe this week, we'll get to see this thing finished.? ;D
-
I wish you'd do a beaver tail handle wrap. I got an air dried tail from Mike Yancey I'm dying to try.
-
Well if you are dying to try then I guess I could send the bow out to ya? ;D
-
You could do that, I couldn't promise you'd see the bow again. ;D
-
Well, I might see it in pictures? ;)
-
Yep, you might ;D
-
Just found and read your build-along today...thoroughly enjoyed it! You're quite the bowyer...picked up some good info just reading some of the steps you take working on your bows. I may have to really challenge myself and attempt one of these some day.
Thanks for the build-along, very interesting and informative! Really like the bow, she turned out really nice! ;)
-
I put up a few finished pics on the bow forum. Already looking forward to the next one. ;D
thanks to all who followed along, and thanks also for the kudos.
-
I can't believe I missed this! I reckon I should look around, din even realize they had this forum.
Great job Timo, can't wait to go back and read it all thru.
-
Tim, That Horn is really hard to work flat ,is there a specific distance apart that you made the spiral to cut?
-
I layed out a template on a piece of 2" masking tape,on a big miror I had. I then just cut out the pattern,peeled it off the mirror and transfered it to the horn. I just kinda moved it around until I had it the way I thouhgt would work.That is when i sprayed painted it.Peeled off the pattern and cut all the painted area away.
-
The only method I had seen before this using horn was to cut it lengthwise, toward the tip, so the natural bend of the horn ran lengthwise, I have to wonder if a horn bow made in this manner (twisted horn) won't naturally twist the limbs over time? Quite an amazing technique however:)
-
Bow looks good , but... your cut stile , Timo is veeery bad. If bow live some time you must be lucky. You cut all horn lines cros his natural direction. Its same like if you cut sinew in smal pieces- or bow wood cut not in his long line , but cross his width.But who know, maybe you are lucky man? :D
-
Imean somthing like this :
(http://img.enter4u.eu/th/Arozky1c466.jpg) (http://img.enter4u.eu/Arozky1c466.jpg)
-
Dusan, I know of a fella that has many bows built this way.....I guess he is a very lucky man, as they are still together. Mine is holding well.Many shots thus far. Hope I saty lucky. ;)
How do we ever accomplish anything if we never try,if we never push the peverbial envelope?
-
I will be happy, if you are right and your bow live for ever ! But this is very contraversal cut stil against all 2000 or more years experiences ... :'( And against logic too). I believe that ours grand , grand , grand ... fathers was not stupid ;). From another point, this cut was like pray for all of us - because no need buy long horns from Azia (not cheep..) . Relativly smal 30-40cm horn give you long stripe for your bow- haleluja ! O:) In every aspect interesting work.
Long and dont break live for your bow , Timo.
-
I believe that I am understanding Dusan's argument here....but I don't know that it would really matter that much since it is all glued down like Sinew anyways.....Horn is like a Toenail...it is made from (keratin and other proteins) Hair really....consisting of a covering of horn that has growth rings like a Tree...but also Lineal Fibers surrounding a core of living bone....it's the Covering that We use....and all of the Fibers grow lengthwise with the Horn....so cutting like you did...violates every fiber in the Horns layers....but Hey....if it works...there Ya go!!!!
-
I could see where it would be much more important to not cut across the fibers of the horn if it were used on the back on the bow. But on the belly...not so sure. :-\
-
One have problems vith relatively good piece of horn cut in right way in concave of horn. Litle cracs can distroy your bow .Dangerous cracs was mostly in width direction... Timos work is courious, but i wuldnt made mi bow in same way. Many good materials and working hours are here in risk. :o
-
Hi Tim,
Is this bow still shooting? Have you had any ill affects from the cutting technic you used? Is this build along sill update or did you find yourself wishing you did something different.
-
Timo hasn't been on pa for a long time.
-
Thanks you for the update. I was hoping to see how the bow held up over time. If it worked it really a good way to get the most from a piece of horn.