Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Woodely on July 05, 2019, 07:30:56 pm
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Achieving perfect tiller on a Asymmetrical bow is impossible, other than getting the limb timing close then why is it so important to achieve perfect tiller on a symmetrical bow. Does limb timing correltate with tiller.?
I have a 3 piece Asymmetrical wood bow that shoots just fine. The limbs are totally different lengths, various laminations etc. and various woods.
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Looks like you answered your own question bud. A well timed bow IS a well tillered bow
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You can still have a wacky tillered bow and have good timing. I know I have a few.
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I believe I know what you are trying to say, or meant to say, but you misstated it. Perfect tiller (assuming there is such a thing) is achievable on such a bow. It will just always look different than it does on a symmetrical bow. I have made a few asymmetrical bows. One by sheer mistake. There is very sound reasoning behind building them that way. Theoretically. In the real world, I’m not convinced.
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Maybe I should put it this way, if the limbs look totally different in shape and where they bend and still have good timing, then the tiller is good, I'm confusing myself with looks and function. Lol this topic should of never been posted...…. :)
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Woodely,
Here's an asymmetrical bow to look at...Handle is below center, yet it functions excellent...Tiller on these Yumi bows have always interested me...I am sure there is a reason for the asymmetry...The Samurai were deadly with these bows even from horse back with the short lower limb...There is a difference between tiller that looks good vs tiller that shoots good, tiller shape on this bow is not appealing to me, but to a Samurai it was a thing of beauty..
Don
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There is no such thing as a symmetrical bow.
The grip hand is always below the arrow/arrow pass/nocking point.
Del
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The bow in a static sense can be symmetrical, it just cant function symmetrically.
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I think it can correlate to the perfect tiller on a perfect piece of wood but with funky character bows the perfect tiller may not be the eye pleasing tiller.
For example, if a limb has a knotted area this area should be left slightly stiffer. If there is a deflexed area that area needs to bend appropriately as well.
I have found asymmetrical bows a bit more difficult to tiller.
Jawge
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quote from burchett.donald:
"There is a difference between tiller that looks good vs tiller that shoots good, tiller shape on this bow is not appealing to me" Same here it looks terrible.
quote from Del:
"The grip hand is always below the arrow/arrow pass/nocking point." True enough but looking at the bow it looks totally symmetrical.
quote from SLIMBOB:
"The bow in a static sense can be symmetrical, it just cant function symmetrically. " On that Yumi bows yes, the bows we build have the arrow pass above center and function symmetrically.
Having said that a bow can look totally out of symmetry and still have good limb timing. Proper Limb timing is really what we are trying to achieve. Its not about looks as it is about having no hand shock and perfect cast. I know from my experience that shooting a bow in requires tuning like tweaking the arrow shelf and adjusting the string nock. Once I have those 2 variables working together nicely with a good set of matched arrows regardless what the tiller looks like the bow is shooting at its best.
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Nothing to disagree with above.
I'll just say that the goal of tillering is to get all areas of the limbs to do their share of the work in the same amount of time.
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Woodely....now we begin to differ in our definitions of "symmetrical". "Symmetrical- Made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis." If the handle is centered the bow is symmetrical, all else being equal. Pick it up and shoot it, it no longer functions symmetrically as the arrow pass is above center. You can remedy that by putting the arrow pass dead center and now the bottom limb is shorter than the top and thus the bow is no longer symmetrical. Not intending to put words in Del's mouth but this what he meant with his comment I believe. So with an arrow pass above center, the bow does not function symmetrically. We know this and make adjustments to the tiller to account for this paradox. Positive tiller as one example, and the bow no longer functions symmetrically. But the limb TIMING...is symmetrical. This after my 3rd cup of Joe this morning. :)
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Function and Form are 2 different things are they not.
"Positive tiller as one example, and the bow no longer functions symmetrically. " So perfect tiller or near perfect tiller does not exist, if a bows tiller is not seriously out of whack like a bad hinge or flat spot Why Worry..?
I'm really not trying to disagree on this point just trying to make sense.
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Good tiller, no matter if it's "symmetrical" or "asymmetrical", is both limbs bending evenly and together, both limbs doing their share of the work.
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I have made bows, that I know by definition were not tillered that well,,but they shot really well,, so I guess something was right about them,, I think alot left to interpretation and how the bow performs,,but so many ways to tiller a bow and still get good perfromance, I guess the best performance and durability would be a main consideration,,I dont really have a great defintion for perfect tiller,,I just do my best on each bow,, :NN
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Same here. I can spot bad tiller. Hinges, flat spots, weak limbs, etc. I just work to address those issue until they are fixed. Then, how does it shoot? I think the less experienced we are the more apt we are to reverse those two. See how it shoots , and then address the tiller.
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So with an arrow pass above center, the bow does not function symmetrically. We know this and make adjustments to the tiller to account for this paradox. Positive tiller as one example, and the bow no longer functions symmetrically. But the limb TIMING...is symmetrical. This after my 3rd cup of Joe this morning. :)
+ 1 here I once found a (imho) very well made lab experiment about tiller changes regarding nock point and arrowpass position. It really helped me to understand some things a little better...
http://buildyourownbow.com/the-truth-about-bow-balance/?fbclid=IwAR1GHwSP0-ia53vzFRmIPE6IF7LoeDs64o5xlOxNjXp_31fSy1nhfJL9MpA (http://buildyourownbow.com/the-truth-about-bow-balance/?fbclid=IwAR1GHwSP0-ia53vzFRmIPE6IF7LoeDs64o5xlOxNjXp_31fSy1nhfJL9MpA)
cheers
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There is no asymetricaL bow. there is just a tiller. Here i agree with SLIMBOB. how your bow is shooting? The only importante thing by tillering is, the arrow must move strate when You draw the bow. :). No mater if the grip changes the angle when You draw.
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Pappy