Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PierreZFP on May 04, 2015, 11:41:28 am
-
Hi All
I have been digging into this excellent forum for a bit and now I have some questions to put if I may.
I know how to shoot as I've been shooting for around 25 years now (mostly recurve but also English Longbow and Compound) but I have never made a bow.
The questions concern an approach by a film maker who is making a movie based on a fictional life of Otzi the Iceman. For those not familiar with Otzi, he is a remarkably well preserved mummy found in the ice in the Italian Tyrol. He dates from around 3500 BC and was found with a copper axe and a quiver full of arrows amongst other things. He was also shot in the back with an arrow and died from his wound.
So, in the film, the actor playing Otzi needs a primitive bow appropriate to the time period (5000+ years ago). I am thinking I could attempt to make such a thing and that it would be a good project to learn on then make a better bow for myself.
On my bit of land, I have many beech trees of various sizes, would a stave from one of these be suitable? I am not hung up on only using stone/copper tools as long as the result looks OK. Also, the actor has no shooting skills so I'm looking at a max 30 pound bow.
Any thoughts or guidance is much appreciated, thank you
-
Otzi had a bow stave with him that would be a reasonable starting point for design. You will probably be in the somewhat long straight limb design, so it should be a reasonably simple bow to turn out, especially if you restrict the weight and draw length for the non-archer actor.
You can make a beech bow. It is a whitewood so your bow's back is right under the bark. Grab a stave from a decent diameter tree-or one that is a bit ovular-to reduce back crown. It is not a top tier wood, but if you add a bit of extra length you should be ok. Maintaining a low draw weight will reduce your stresses a good deal.
SOM
-
Would it not be more logical to direct the production team towards somebody who has lots of experience making exactly this style of bow, and has worked with the Otzi museum? I can think of quite a few people who fit that bill who I'm sure would be more than happy to do it, and the end result would no doubt be a very accurate representation of the actual bow, as compared to something made of the wrong type of wood by an amateur?
I'm not trying to be deliberately negative (apologies if it came across that way), but Otzi's bow is still the subject of MANY heated debates between bow making experts worldwide, and it's only just starting to get pinned down to a specific layout, cross section etc. There are experienced bow makers who still won't attempt to make an Otzi replica because it's so unusual and specific.
Just a thought.
On the other hand, if you do wanna give it a go it's dimensionally similar to the MR bows, and the cross section is backwards to what one would expect - flat belly and highly crowned back if you're to believe that school of thought, or the conflicting belief is that it's a classic D-cross section with rounded belly, but made from the inside of the tree, so essentially inside-out to what we think of normally. Yew coated in blood was the original bow, but you could replicate it at a low poundage with something else for sure.
No nocks cut into the bow itself, just sinew wraps on each end coated in thick hide glue or similar which the string loops sit against.
If you're really not too bothered about accuracy, any narrow, deep longbow design would work - in fact for production purposes something like beech would probably be fine, as it will take lots of set using that design which would make it easier for a non-archer to use.
-
I got the impression that you would really prefer to make the bow yourself. If I were going to do that I would figure on making 3 or 4 before I got the final result. Your beech will have to dry a while before you can start bending it. Wood bow staves can easily be obtained on e ebay depending on where you are located. You also may have someone willing to work with you in your own area. Making a bow is not all that difficulat once you understand the basics.
-
Hello Pierre
could you tell us a little more about this production? Where and when will it be shooted?
there are many Otzi fans here
As for the bow I think that more than an accurate replica it would be good to have a credible one.
Otzi were a small man and the bow was taller than him. That should be reproduced if possible.
There is also the point that the bow Otzi had when He died was probably never shooted as it seems it could be an unfinished one
Aniway if you google around you'll find many more or less accurate replica's to get inspiration from
-
You should be more specific as to your location. American Beech makes a decent bow but European Beech does not have such a good reputation.
-
There is also the point that the bow Otzi had when He died was probably never shooted as it seems it could be an unfinished one
That theory is more or less disproved by now. There's no reason for a primitive hunter to be on a mountain with a quiver of arrows and a chunk of wood carefully protected and sealed in animal blood if it wasn't a working bow. Not sure anybody would go wandering around with a quiver of arrows and nothing to shoot them with ;)
There used to be a wonderful theory flying around that the Mary Rose bows were unfinished staves as well. It took far too long for the majority to accept that it was rubbish.
-
I second Marc St-Louis' comment about the European beech. There are dozens of better species in Europe to start from, and surely in your area some of these grow there.
One of the reasons for this is that European beech has very short fibers which hardly splinter, and this is also why this is the preferred wood for making toys, beds and baby boxes out of this wood. But short fibers is not what you want in a bow wood.
joachim
-
Thank you all for all your rapid and helpful replies, much more than I expected.
I should point out a few things, firstly this is a zero budget production so approaching a company to produce the props is out of the question unfortunately. I have been approached by the author of a book and screenplay of a story written around Otzi. He wants to shoot a trailer or taster in order to pitch this to a publisher and maybe a studio. As was said above, the bow needs to be convincing rather than strictly accurate (this is the movies after all ;) ) Also, the actor is considerably larger than Otzi so a bow longer than him (he is around 1.8 metres tall) might look a bit odd.
As for location, I am living in Luxembourg, the 'Green Heart of Europe'. Last evening I went for a walk to try and find a suitable tree for a stave. Not easy is it? The trees I can recognise are beech, fir (various), rowan, elder, european oak, silver birch. After an hour or so I realised that they were all too small/twisted/damaged but mostly they had many side branches. A friend and neighbour has some woodland where the trees have been coppiced so I will ask him if I can look for something to cut down.
Many thanks for all your input
-
Rowan has been known to make a fine bow
-
If you can find hazel, plum, cherry or Apple you'll have slightly better luck at making a low weight simple longbow. Any of the plums would do.
-
Hmmm definitely have cherry and hazel too. Might be a bit of pear too if the fruit trees make acceptable bows
-
If you've got hazel, that's your best bet. Pretty much all fruit trees make good bows, but hazel is far more forgiving and will take less set if the tiller isn't perfect.
-
You'll very likely also have European Hornbeam which is a cleaner larger tree than the American variety.
-
If you've got hazel, that's your best bet.
+1
it dryes pretty fast too in my experience
-
Ash makes a good longbow if heat treated and the moisture level kept low.
-
Hazel would seem to be the way to go then. I will go and look for somel but it will have to wait for the weekend. If I don't see anything suitable I am visiting Northern France next week and I know I have some there.
Thanks for all the info.
-
This Hazel bow is probably a reasonable approximation. :)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,52299.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,52299.0.html)
Del
-
If you're going to Northern France get your hands on some Yew!!! It's abundant throughout France and is both the original material for Otzis bow, plus far easier to work with and far more forgiving for beginners.
-
Ah yes! I hadn't thought of that :o
Did you know that Yew is called If in French ? Actually it's spelt Yf in old French
-
That theory is more or less disproved by now. There's no reason for a primitive hunter to be on a mountain with a quiver of arrows and a chunk of wood carefully protected and sealed in animal blood if it wasn't a working bow
There are many obscure points
the blessure in the Otzi right hand could be the cause of blood on kinfe, bow and axle handles
the blood on the arrow is from the point up for about 30 cm - 11,8'' and may be due to a precendent hunt use.
A usable string for the bow was never found and the arrows are mainly just shaft
the complete arrows have differents lenght and apparently were fletched by different mans
As for the movie
I understand the low (or no) budget issue but I'll try to respect at least some basic appearance and point of the ice man if you want to spend his name
As a primitive life and Otzi fan I'd be interested in a movie (even a fictionalized version) but I'll expect to find some consistence with the fact of that historical time
-
I would still go for hazel:
1) it grows everywhere in N-France, Luxemburg, Belgium, ... much easier to find good staves than yew, even in N-France.
2) Every decent hazel bush has a handful of pipe-straight staves from 2 to 10 cm diameter in length and 2 m long. Collect a dozen staves (now is not the best time, actually, even though it is diffuse-porous wood... but at least it less risky than ring-porous species like ash)
3) Hazel is easy wood to work with hand tools (if it isn't spiral grained... many staves are, therefore collect more than one)
4) messing up a few good hazel staves is good practice. Messing up a few good yew staves is a pity...
As for Otzi's bow: a few archery gurus shed their light on whether or not this was a functional bow rather than work in progress:
their conclusion, based on mathematical modelling as well comparison with other bows, indicates that it would break if drawn to a regular length, and would draw 150# at 26".
See http://www.primitiveways.com/Otzi%27s_bow.html
If you need help from a nearby bowyer, I'm only 200 km NW of you :-)
To American standards, I live in your backyard
Joachim
-
there are some wild speculations in that article about human strength and ability... specifically that otzi only being 5'3 and not heavily muscled would have been incapable of pulling a heavy weight bow...
that is ridiculous... in the last 30years of working and being in gyms weightlifting i have seen bunches and bunches of "little" guys who were strong as beasts...
and i have a very close personal friend from back home in louisiana who was 5'3 on a day when he really stretched well and held strength records in every weight class from 132-154 pounds... including a at the time 357# bench at 135# bodyweight...
-
Yeah in all honesty the idea that Otzi's bow wasn't finished is ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. If we completely ignore the theories about man's strength in that overly-biased article (I know plenty of small guys who can draw 150# bows - it's technique and strength not size that counts) there is no sensible, logical reason for it to have NOT been a working bow.
That article is just like all the others that came out regarding the MR bows. I'm sure we've all read Pip Bickerstaffe's published books about them, stating with complete authority and confidence that no natural fibre string in the world could withstand a draw weight over 100lbs. We know as a certain fact through evidence and testing that it's not true.
No primitive hunter wanders into the mountains with a quiver of arrows (who cares if they were fletched by different people? They're still arrows!) and a bow stave that doesn't work. It's daft. The bow was tapered, carefully finished with tiny tool marks that certainly aren't roughing-out marks, the tips are small and well formed and the whole bow is coated in blood to protect and seal it.
Why go to ANY of that trouble for an unfinished bow stave?
-
Well, I will try and collect several staves of various woods as as I'm sure my first attempt will be rubbish (and the second...and the tenth ...) so I can hopefully produce something half decent eventually.
As for authenticity, Otzi is not the main character in the story although it is set at that time. The purpose of the short trailer is to give a flavour of the time (the actors are speaking English for heaven's sake) in order to interest a publisher. If it ever came to the big screen then I would hope everything to be spot on as you say to respect his name.
joachimM I think that 200Km NW of me would put you near Mons? I drive past there on the E19 fairly regularly on my way to Pas-de-Calais
-
I think it was an unfinished bow stave. Its well documented that Native Americans had several bow staves on the go in case their useable bow was damaged. Does not seem ridiculous at all that a stone age man in Europe would have a spare half finished bow with him that he would work on when he had the time. If stone age man did it in North America I can understand the practicality of having a half finished bow stave in Europe. After all, if your useable tackle breaks, having a standby half finished hunting tool means you can eat meat sooner.