Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Yellowstave on February 14, 2020, 06:45:49 am
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So guys, on your best smoothest bows is it always positive tiller or is there something smoother about symmetry? I understand the correlations between ones shooting style but it seems to my feeble mind that equal limb length would slam the string taught at closer to the same time resulting in a more harmonic balance. How big a factor is this in shooting for speed.
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I make my bows symmetrical, The center of the handle is the center of the bow so the arrow pass is on top of my bow hand about 1 1/2" above center.
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My best, smoothest bows aren't always any one tiller profile... and they're virtually never of symmetrical design. I don't tiller them to a predetermined tiller measurement. Instead, I balance the strengths of the limbs relative to my fulcrums on bow and string, and allow the tiller measurements to be whatever they end up as.
Each selfbow stave can be shaped a little, or a lot different. And even if two staves have the same unbraced profile, they can have differences in inherent strengths between their respective limbs. So why in the world would I assume all bows will all act the same, or any certain way at all, if I make them all 1/4" positive, for instance. I can't. They won't. So I don't. I'm not satisfied with the odds, or results, of guessing or hoping a bow will act as I expect with predetermined tiller measurements.
My best behaved bows are those whose braced tiller measurements I ignore until tillering is complete. They're those that carry balanced, and draw balanced throughout the entire draw, are inherently tuned and quiet with the first arrow shot. They're those that I designed with the bow center, and bow and string hand fulcrums in near alignment with one another, and then balance the strength of the limbs relative to those fulcrums, which keeps the dynamic balance point right there among them too. These are the sweetest shooting, smoothest, best balanced bows I've made, and I can predict them acting as such one after another... regardless of what their various tiller measurements are. I don't even CARE what they are. They don't all 'look' the same at brace, but they do 'act' the same, and that is infinitely more important to me.
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+1 Pat. I simply tiller it to accommodate the arrow pass being above center. If you flip it around, the tiller will be off.
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The thing about symmetrical tiller is if the tiller goes out you can flip it over. I've done this when the lower limb takes too much set.
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Slight positive at brace and throughout draw and a longer upper limb.
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I do mine like PatB. I guess I'm not much of an archer because I've never noticed a "balance" difference. Maybe I've lucked into it with all 70 bows. I've read all the posts and tried all the methods(well, most) and I always just drop back into the bend it til it looks right method. I don't know that I could tell an unbalanced bow if you whacked me upside the head with it. :D
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well,, if you are getting perfect arrow flight,, the bow is probably tillered well,,or 195 fps,, Like DC
lots of factors going into tiller,, bottom line its gotta shoot well,,
and I think can be done with equal length limbs,, or not,,how ever you gonna measure that,,
for me personally,, I like the bow to balance in my hand,, then I place the arrow according to that and tiller the bow to shoot well,,so I would just have to assume the limbs are slamming the string taught at the right time,, when the arrow flys well,,,or really fast,,
some people grip the bow so differently and put different pressure on the string,,so tiller may vary depending on the person,, I would say your release is more critical to speed,,,than length of limbs,,
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You should be able to feel if a bow is balanced when you draw it. Even pressure in your hand means evenly balanced limbs, no matter whether the bow is symmetrical or asymmetrical . Look at the Yumi bows. Lengthwise they are not balanced but shooting wise they are.
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thats a great example,, I hope to shoot one sometime,,never have
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I see what you're saying patb. So why don't bowyers go with negative tiller. It seems a reverse yumi bow would be quite handy in a wooded hunting environment. If it just comes down to feeling then a shorter top limb would get under a lot of trash in the woods.
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On shorter bow,,.if the tiller is negative,,,it will be hard to tune..positive tiller is the result of getting the bow to shoot well,..don't ask me to explain why :)
if you have a short top limb,, you can have a short bottom limb and its much easier to hunt with,,you can still have positive tiller with both limbs short,,
if you will make a bow,, especially something a bit shorter, you will see how much better it shoots with postive tiller,,
(W
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You can see how forgiving a bow actually is by stringing up a bamboo pole and shooting it. After you find the sweet spot, flip it and shoot it upside down. Compare.
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I build some bows with symmetrical limbs and a slight positive tiller and I build some bows with a longer top limb and a positive tiller. I don't notice a difference in shooting between the two. I'm not convinced it matter s a whole lot as long as the bow is tillered well for it's design. Arguments I've heard pushing one or the other have never felt really convincing to me. If someone has a good argument, I'm all ears. Until then I'll remain wishy-washy. ;D
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Arrow pass for my bows is 1.25 in above enter but that can vary depending on tiller. I like the bottom limb slightly stronger or at least even at full draw. Both limbs the same size.
I've tried other designs but like the option of flipping the bow around depending on tuning.
Jawge
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Depends, on whether the bow bends through the handle or has a stiff handle.
Bend through the handle I like an arrow pass 1" above centre. Its seems to be the best compromise. AP at the middle, hand takes up too much of the lower limb. AP 2" above the centre looks wrong to me.
For a stiff handled bow I prefer equal length limbs, AP 2" above centre. Alternatively a lower limb 1" shorter works well too.
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Like some positive tiller at brace and some at FD.
Where the arrow passes really get decided for me by the shooter the bow is getting gifted to.
Does not matter if its symmetrical or bottom limb is a tad shorter.
A really good shooter can shoot one about any way or where arrow passes but knows how he wants his arrow pass and where.
Most who cant tell me their aiming process, i kinda figure they shoot a more instinctive method. Most of those guys like pass right above hand be it “1 or 2” above center. Where as if a fella tells me i gap and always have. Then, middle of bow is center and pass is 1.25-1.50” above center.
Dont think a selfbow can be made generic for every shooters ability. Some suit styles better than others. One thing i notice right off is: If a person has to shoot the bow laid over sides to toward 3 or 9 o'clock something is not correct with bows set up.
Shawn~
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Hedge am I reading this correct. You are saying your opinion is something is wrong if someone shoots canted?
I really just try and balance the limbs. My tillering tree is not flat up top so I can see the bow rock as it is drawn. Also I cannot shoot at all with the bow vertical. Half of my field of view is obstructed and I find myself straining my neck which causes pain. Two serious car accidents and I have a lifetime of neck issues so I have to shoot canted pretty hard about 45* or more
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So it seems to me that if one were to use the tillering tree to tiller then you should not only set the bow at the balance point on the handle but also as you pull the string you should pull at 1.25 inches above center on the string. This is of course the variable and determined by ones shooting style. I have noticed that my tiller on the tree vs my tiller of my draw are different so I adjust my points of contact on the string and the handle when on the tree. This seems to kinda level out that balance. After all when you center handle and string on a tree, you fail to mimic a person's draw.
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If your arrow is at 1.25" above center then shouldn't you be pulling at some distance less than that depending on whether you shoot split or three under.
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DC,..I'm confused
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Does that help? I added a couple of words :D
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So it seems to me that if one were to use the tillering tree to tiller then you should not only set the bow at the balance point on the handle but also as you pull the string you should pull at 1.25 inches above center on the string. This is of course the variable and determined by ones shooting style. I have noticed that my tiller on the tree vs my tiller of my draw are different so I adjust my points of contact on the string and the handle when on the tree. This seems to kinda level out that balance. After all when you center handle and string on a tree, you fail to mimic a person's draw.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,62531.0.html
This older thread may shed some light...My fulcrum depicts my arrow placement...
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I also prefer the slight positive because the natural position of the extended arm and hand is slightly inclined forward a few degrees.
I often see full draw pics with the wrist being crushed backwards at the top.
The way a Yumi looks in the hand is the most natural stress free grip. That's why pistol grips are so popular in many bows. They mimic the forward tip.
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Thanks burchett Donald. That is a very interesting thread. Thats is also what I've been noticing on my tree at home.
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I like final tiller to be determined by a digi photo or a mirror and as I mentioned I like the bottom limb stronger at full draw by a bit or even at full draw. The way I grip the bow is taken into account. Jawge
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Yeah, I ditch the tiller tree as a gauge of tiller once I get within a few inches of full draw. I switch to judging the tiller when the bow is drawn by hand. At that point I just use the tiller tree to get the weight accurate. It's just not good enough at imitating a true draw, in my opinion. I do my best to set the bow up on the tree to represent how it will be drawn and that helps somewhat.
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Ditto Weylin. The tree for me is mostly used to get the weight right in the final stages. It’s mostly done by hand in the end. Tiller stick early, tiller tree, then in the hand.
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Only the bow in hand will determine how it sets up for a right or left hander. But that is the builders perspective. Best to know the shooter and his shot process for the final fitting.
Have a 50@27” HedgeHunter at the great Gil M’s now. He shooting it in and wants a couple small fit changes. He fresh off the Australian Longbow Cup top 10 finish. Only the shooter can decide what is best for his shooting method. Bow just has oil finish til mods are complete.
HH~
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Yep, bow in hand, I like mine totally balanced at full draw...That cradle keeps me balanced until the last few inches...kudos to you tougher than nails guys that can pull your bow without a tree...I use the roller, cradle and scale until I'm close...
Don
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sometimes on the final bit of tuning im not using tree much,,
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I like a little pos 1/8 to maybe 1/4, a little less or even for someone shooting 3 under on top limb and I build most of mine even length limbs, also some say it doesn't matter what it looks like at brace but only at full draw, That is true, BUT I have found that as you are tillering if you will keep the brace tiller pretty even it will wind up good at full draw or very close so I watch it all the way through. Also I ditch the tree also at a few inches before full draw and do it by hand. My hand if for me and the person's hand I am helping if available. Tiller stick to first brace, tiller tree to 23/24 then by hand checking the weight on the tree as I go forward. :)
Pappy
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As far as positive tiller it depends on how long the bow is. But a typical 70” longbow 1/4”+ upper limb tiller and the arrow rests 1” above center.
“Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.”
-Thanos