Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: hobbyaccumulator on May 20, 2017, 12:39:42 pm
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First off, hi everyone! Glad to be a new member of the community!
I have been wanting to pick up a hobby that involves woodworking but I don't have a ton of money for tools (student). I knew i wanted to make something cool and interesting, not just a table or a chair. I decided on a bow.
After scouring the web and finding build-alongs like the Red Oak Flatbow (http://"http://poorfolkbows.com/oak.htm")presented at poorfolkbows.com and the pyramid bow build (http://"http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064")on tradgang.com.
I understand the basics of picking a board with the straightest possible grain (probably the most important part from what i read), as well as the basics of laying out the design, roughing out the shape, adding a riser, and tillering with a tillering tree/stick (the most important part of the actual construction from what i read).
The thing i am still hung up on is what tools to get. Some people say all you need is a Stanley Surform Rasp, others say that is garbage and to use a Shinto Saw Rasp (coarse on one side, fine on the other), some say you need a hatchet or a draw blade for the roughing, some say to use a planer and others say planers are total sh*t. The only thing i have seen consistent is that everyone agrees a cabinet scraper (or just a scraper) is very useful.
From my research here is the list of tools i have put together and their purposes, i am sure i have missed a metric boatload of possible tools and i completely left out powertools because i know they are out of my price range.:
Mass wood removal/ Major Roughing:
Draw knife
farriers rasp
coping saw
hatchet (bearded?)
Detailed roughing/Rough tillering:
Stanley Surform rasp
9" Shinto Saw Rasp
Detailed Tillering, nocks, arrow rest:
Stanley 21-113 4-In-1 File
Other files? - half round, flat, rat tail, bastard, chainsaw
scraper (cabinet scraper?)
Other Necessary Tools:
C Clamps
Tightbond II
Sandpaper
Backing Materials:
sheetrock tape (otherwise known as drywall tape)
linen
silk
leather?
Like i said at the beginning i just want to ease myself into this hobby as cheaply as possible. I set a budget for myself of around 60 dollars and i want to get at minimum (in order from most wood removal to least):
1) something that will remove wood quickly for roughing, i don't want to have to spend 6 hours just getting the wood from stock board to rough shape.
2) something to detail the rough shape to match the layout more precisely; if i can be satisfied with the shape
3) something to use for tillering; i imagine i am going to need some tool for major tillering and another minor tillering depending on how much wood i need to remove
4) something for the small features after everything is tillered like the knocks and arrow rest,
If i can get tool recommendations for each of these steps to reduce the amount of time and frustration beginners suffer, i would appreciate it a lot! Only problem is that i have a relatively low budget (around 60 dollars), on the bright side from what i have read a lot of people do entire bows with just a hatchet and a farriers rasp.
A problem that i am running in to is that i've never used these tools so i don't have any way to compare them in my mind. People say that the farrier rasp and shinto raw rasp take a ton of wood off quickly but does that compare to a coping saw or draw knife? And surprisingly there are no videos on youtube comparing different common bowyery tools and how fast they remove wood.
What can you guys recommend to a complete beginner that wants to keep costs low but still wants to use his time efficiently. I have read the forums here (before i signed up) and that's how i put together the above list, but i am too hesitant to commit to any tools. I know you can make a bow with just 400 grit sandpaper, but there's no reason to use that starting with the board all the way to the knocks. If i can get from stock wood to placing on the tillering tree in 5-6 hours of time spent with the wood (not including the time spent for glue to dry, etc) that would be ideal. Then i imagine i will spend another 4-6 hours tillering it. But since i've never made a bow before these are just estimates.
Impotant Note: i don't have any woodworking tools except for a hammer right now. I have some extra pine 2x4 in the garage i can use to make a tillering tree, but even then i don't know what tool i would use to cut the notches in the tree with, would a coping saw be good for that? I have no clue.
Some extraneous questions from a beginner:
1) Do you cut the knocks and arrow rest, and handle shape out of the wood before tillering. I imagine if you do it after tillering it will change the tiller a lot.
2) What is a stave? I keep hearing about staves vs board bows and i am googling but all google comes up with is that a stave is a straight grain piece of wood from a tree. Is there something more to it?
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I cant believe I get to answer first! You seem to have done good research and have a good grasp on the information you gathered. Tools can sometimes be a personal preference and some just work better in one persons hand than an others.
If I were on your budget I would get a farriers rasp, a finer rasp like a Nicholson from box store, a scraper, and a skinny file for nocks.
If you get the ferriers rasp used you should be able to stay under 60 bucks, and a lot of things can be made into a scraper.
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All you need is a good knife. KaBar makes the best commercially available one. Its their iconic Marine Cops fighting/survival knife. For years i have used just that knife start to finish, even witch cutting the tree and splitting the wood. Even with power tools available, its still my go to tool. You shouldnt need a backing but we all find ourselves putting one in sometimes. Forget the glass tape. Its no good. If the bow works with it it will work without it. A camera is your best friend when tillering. The other part is decide what wood is most available to you and learn it.
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I cant believe I get to answer first! You seem to have done good research and have a good grasp on the information you gathered. Tools can sometimes be a personal preference and some just work better in one persons hand than an others.
If I were on your budget I would get a farriers rasp, a finer rasp like a Nicholson from box store, a scraper, and a skinny file for nocks.
If you get the ferriers rasp used you should be able to stay under 60 bucks, and a lot of things can be made into a scraper.
Thanks ! The research is fun! I try to only ask questions on forums if I can't find a suitable answer from googling.
A lot of people recommend the Nicholson #49 from what I've read but I can't find it for cheap enough to fit my budget. Will a farriers rasp take off wood bulk fast enough? Like I said concerned about overlooking a tool for mass wood removal because I don't want to spend the majority of the time just getting to the rough shape. I want to save as much patience for the tillering since I know that's ultra important.
The farrier rasp gets recommended so much I think I will have to pick up this one (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004HW6AV0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_dXhizbQ1W30F6). Still leaves me with a decent chunk of my budget too!
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I like making bows from saplings of about 3 inch diameter as I can build a bow from one with just a hatchet and a rasp and a scraper or sandpaper. But, you do also need something to split the sapling, although, wooden wedges or even screwdrivers work for this.
I would say a second hand hatchet for about $10 and a new rasp would be the minimum tools, and you can work without a bench vice with these tools. A draw knife (used) for a few dollars is very useful too, but then you'd need a bench and vice to hold the bow as, if both your hands are on the tool, you can't also be holding the bow.
I use a Shinto, surforms are, in my experience, awful on hard wood, but great on plaster. Where are you based?
Board bows are not necessarily the easiest way into this hobby, my first was a hazelnut sapling
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I like making bows from saplings of about 3 inch diameter as I can build a bow from one with just a hatchet and a rasp and a scraper or sandpaper. But, you do also need something to split the sapling, although, wooden wedges or even screwdrivers work for this.
I would say a second hand hatchet for about $10 and a new rasp would be the minimum tools, and you can work without a bench vice with these tools. A draw knife (used) for a few dollars is very useful too, but then you'd need a bench and vice to hold the bow as, if both your hands are on the tool, you can't also be holding the bow.
I use a Shinto, surforms are, in my experience, awful on hard wood, but great on plaster. Where are you based?
Board bows are not necessarily the easiest way into this hobby, my first was a hazelnut sapling
Great advice! Thanks so much.
I'm in the bay area of California. I don't know what you mean by hazel vs board bow. Can I just get a hazel board?
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Well, I never use boards for bows, always use a cut down tree sapling from a suitable bow-wood, cos usually I can get them for free. Not all types of wood make good bows. My first was a small hazelnut tree about 3 inches across. I split it into two halves (these are staves) and got a bow from each half
Your location is useful so we can advise you what suitable timber grows local to you, and. Maybe you might even live right round the corner from one of the guys on the forum
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Well, I never use boards for bows, always use a cut down tree sapling from a suitable bow-wood, cos usually I can get them for free. Not all types of wood make good bows. My first was a small hazelnut tree about 3 inches across. I split it into two halves (these are staves) and got a bow from each half
Your location is useful so we can advise you what suitable timber grows local to you, and. Maybe you might even live right round the corner from one of the guys on the forum
Wouldnt getting wood from a tree instead of a board require a lot more toolage to cut down to rough shape?
I'm in the lower east bay, below Oakland. I'm not sure how I would even get wood around here.
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No, not really, the hatchet will do the job but get a slipstone. A sharp hatchet can waste away a lot of material very quickly. However, a cheap contractors panel saw for about $7 will fell a small sapling in very little time and is a good investment. I did post some of my early experiments in bow building here https://stuckinthemudsite.wordpress.com/page/6/ and on arrows, if you scroll up the page a bit. The posts are my first bows and first arrows but they were made for zero cost with minimum tools so they might be of interest to you. I learned a ton of stuff from the sites belonging to Del, George and Simson, all of whom post regularly here
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The course side of a farriers rasp will hog off wood very well, and the finer side will tame it down nicely. Like you have noticed in your searches there are plenty of people that don't like a farriers rasp, but for me they work great. I pick them up at flea markets whenever I can.
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I started making bows as a hobby at university. My university had a craft facility with tools and space. All my bows have been made from boards. I use a bandsaw to cut the stave out of the board but a handsaw with rip teeth would work if you are very patient not to get off track or a coping saw. I use a spokeshave with a very sharp blade and thin depth setting for rough tiller and a scraper/sandpaper for final tiller. I use a bandsaw for blocking out the handle, spokeshave for the convex curves in the handle and a half round file for the concave curves. A knife or chainsaw file is great for carving the noch.
Since you live in the desert, your material availability might be different than mine. If you go with a split stave, all you would need is a sharp Bowie knife or k-bar, a rough file, and scraper for shaping and tillering the bow. The knife could double as a scraper.
A little reality: for a begining woodworker especially, you will break the majority of your early attempts at a simple longbow or flat bow whether you use a split stave or board. This is more the case if you don't read the boweyers bible first. I personally find that building a broken bow is better than none at all. Given the 20-40 hours I spend per bow, a 30 dollar stave is cheap entertainment compared to a movie or night of booz. Since I love messing about with wood, I don't perceive the time until the neighbors come by to remind me that it's 4am. Just expect a handmade bow project to. E an excercise in patience that takes a few tries to master. I think I broke about 20 bows before I started getting it right--partly because I didn't read the book first.
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Stave: when a bower finds a good tree for bowmaking he cuts it down and splits it lengthwise into pie slices the length of the log and carefully dries them for a few years. If the split pieces are long enough to make a bow from one piece, they are called a stave. If they are half length they are a billet. Billets get joined at the handle of the bow to make a stave.
If you don't have access to staves of a suitable species, you can buy them for more than your budget or trade with a member or make a friend who has extra.
A board bow is made essentially by being obsessive about picking a board with very straight grain. Trees generally grow in a spiral so it is not enough that the growth rings appear straight on the edges of the board but you have to look at the actual fibers on the flat sawn surface to see if they are pretty close to parallel with the corner of the board. Once you have a high quality board you mark out the shape of the back of the board on the flat sawn surface and cut outside the lines for your board stave. It is a good idea to make a board bow about 15% wider then a split stave bow of the same species and draw weight because the risk of end grain on the back and sides is higher. A board bow will be more reliable if it is backed with a structural backing like bamboo, sinew, or the best in my opinion, a veneer with at least one growth ring following the full length of the bow from a split stave of the same wood as is in your board. If you can't back a board bow, just be sure you are meticulous about the quality of the board. Any blemish or pin knot is a weak spot so leave it a bit thicker so it doesn't bend there.
If you buy your materials, most of the classic North American medium to strong hardwoods could work if you design accordingly. My favorite is eastern hard maple but white ash is also a great option and is usually cheaper in my area. Hickory, Walnut, cherry, elm, Oregon white oak, red oak, eastern white oak, have all been used to make good bows and are not threatened or endangered. A great combination is moso bamboo backed Ipe. With moso bamboo you can make the layers 50-50 thickness. Other bamboos would have a different ratio. You want to match the physical properties under tension and compression with relative thickness so one doesn't over-power the other.
Your odds of getting good results on the first try will be vastly better if you find someone in your area who can teach you. Regardless, go for it. It's a blast.
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I would say a hatchet is a prime tool, for both cutting saplings (I prefer diameters 4" or larger) and removing lots of wood. However, it's easy to cut too much off and ruining a stave with a hatchet unless you possess some skill. I would say a draw knife has better control while still removing wood quickly it's also mutch easier to chase a ring when getting a back down to one growth ring. I have found a rasp to be a poor tool for fast wood removal. It will work but it take much longer. However, a rasp is almost essential in my eyes for tillering. It provides the perfect balance of removing wood quick enough when you need to but is fine enough not to easily mess things up. I would say clamps are also a must have. I use them for everything, from gluing stuff, heat treating/straightening/recurving, and securing it to tables when I do rasp (for quicker wood removal) or even using a draw knife. I don't have a vise or vise bench but clamps can work just as well as long as you have a large and heavy enough thing to clamp it to. I even used to just sit on the bow and pull towards myself before I got the clamps. as far as the tillering stick I can post later on how I designed mine. I cut the slots in with a jig saw but I've seen people simply drill holes and glue in dowels. I think I would do it that way if I had to do it again. For nocks its real nice to have a real coarse round wood rasp. But I cut them in with the saw part of a swiss army knife.
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you also need some way to hold the stave while you work on it. I made a shave horse really cheaply from basic lumber. a length of 2x10 for the seat, some 2x4s for the clamping mechanism and bracing, and 2x2s for the legs. Add some wood screws and a few other hardware pieces, and you are done. I use a shave horse, a draw knife, and a cabinet scraper almost exclusively--oh and a rat tail file/chainsaw file to make nocks. A rasp can be helpful for the handle area.
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There should be a good selection of wood in that area, oak, cedar, maybe ash and hickory, check with the extension service. For tools, hit the garage sales, estate sale, and flea market(not antique stores, they are over priced). Your school may have a woodworking shop, of course, they may also have a p.c. Policy about making any sort of weapon, even if it is research! There has to be at least one bowyer in that area to learn from.
Hawkdancer
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https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.msg464947.html#msg464947
Here is my board bow build a long, i do think i show all the tools i used on the build
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Check my site. Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com