Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: willie on January 31, 2018, 01:03:23 pm
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Recently, some guys have mentioned the fact that a bow being tillered on a longstring does not show the true bend as if it was braced. I agree.
But does it matter much if we know this in advance, and limit how far we tiller out before bracing?
Bracing too soon was a mistake I made on a few staves.
I know some like to go right to a low brace and raise the brace slowly, but my question is to those that like using the long string.
How far out do you go on the longstring?
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Willie, I usually get off the long string when the tips bend to about 8" or so and everything is looking good. With the tip moving to about 8" on the long string I can usually get to low brace without much trouble. Also, if I can't brace the bow yet I know I need to remove more wood first before bracing.
The way I see it is with a loose long string the tips are pulling almost straight down. With a short string and the bow at low brace the string pulls the tips more inward which I feel gives a different visual reading than being pulled more straight down. This could be just the ramblings of my feeble old brain but it's how I've always done it.
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I'm pretty much with PatB on this but I go to maybe 10-12 inches on the long string. Long being the shortest string I can get on it without bending the bow
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You're right willie, it doesn't matter if you know this in advance, it's just something to keep in mind, and not to go to far. I do like Pat said, once the tips are moving far enough where I can get it braced, I brace it. There really is no advantage to staying on the long string longer than necessary, other than your ability to string it.....maybe someone else has a good reason that I haven't thought of.
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We know that the long string makes the tips look stiffer. Does a longer long string make this worse?
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Yes, the greater the angle the worse.
Make the long string as short as possible, and use the short string (at low brace) as soon as possible.
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DC
is that 10-12 string nock travel? I think Pat B was talking about tip travel.
Does a longer long string make this worse?
Yes, the greater the angle the worse.
Make the long string as short as possible, and use the short string (at low brace) as soon as possible.
so does a bow at a very low brace make the bend look different than a full brace
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Yes, but only little difference
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Willie, I think once you're at brace, low or regular the angles are about the same or at lease with very little difference.
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I don't pay any attention to tip movement. I use a long string that is usually from about 3" to 6" loose on the bow. When I read target weight at about 23" I brace it. It reads almost the same at 23" braced as it did 23" on the long string. I pull it to full target weight on the long string every trip to the tiller tree once I get it pretty well evenly bending but when it is still very much over target weight. Tiller changes a little but easy enough to square away before hitting 28".
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DC
is that 10-12 string nock travel? I think Pat B was talking about tip travel.
10-12 tip travel but if I was making a lighter bow(that I could string) I'd do it sooner.
so does a bow at a very low brace make the bend look different than a full brace
Good thought, the string tension would be higher on a low brace so I would guess yes but it's just a guess.
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There's very little of any difference between low brace and full brace because the direction the string is pulling on the limbs is the same. Once your string is slack, every inch longer is pulling the limbs more down and not toward each other.
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You're probably right but a lower brace does pull harder.
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There's very little of any difference between low brace and full brace because the direction the string is pulling on the limbs is the same. Once your string is slack, every inch longer is pulling the limbs more down and not toward each other.
Yep, exactly. Much more better explanation than mine!
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I only use tip movement as a reference. Usually at about 8" of tip movement the bow can be low braced at about 2" or so. If it is too stiff to brace I know I need to remove more wood first before bracing. And, remember this is just if both limbs are bending well and together. If there is a hinge I fix it first before bracing.
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You're probably right but a lower brace does pull harder.
Shhhh, next we'll be talking string angles.
Guys, thanks for the input. I started this thread for the benefit of some new guys that have posted recently about longstring. I kinda like leaving it on the longstring until most of the wood removal has happened. I don't like wrasslin with a hard to brace stave.
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Great thread Guys, especially for a newbie like myself. I'm on the long string now, if I place the tip of the bow at my toe and floor tiller there is more of a nice arc when I sight down the limb but on the tree the outer limbs appear to be way stiffer. Totally different pressure points and angles I guess.
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Pat, when you say tip movement is that with the full target weight of the bow being pulled?
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Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is string material. If you have a string made from B-50, sinew, gut or something significantly less stiff than something like uh... steel... haha then your string is going to stretch quite a bit when you brace it. You can mitigate this a bit by using flight string such as Dyneema. My point is, bracing a bow at fistmale is going to have a tip movement of 6 inches or so, but you're going to have to bend it much further (maybe 10 inches or more) to get the loop on the knock. So even if you go for a low brace of 3 inches, you might be pushing 7 inches to get the loop on the knock and accounting for string stretch. So, therefore, you should have your bow tillered on the long string at least 8" if not more. I would go more for 10" or 12". I too have had a bow ruined due to bracing too soon. I am more of a supporter of the long string than floor tillering, but it all depends on how you learned. I personally see no difference in bending the tips 3 inches on a long string vs bending it 3 inches while floor tillering. At least with the long string, you can take a picture, or view it at a better angle to see the bend (face on rather than looking down the belly/back of the bow towards the floor).
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Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is string material. If you have a string made from B-50, sinew, gut or something significantly less stiff than something like uh... steel... haha then your string is going to stretch quite a bit when you brace it. You can mitigate this a bit by using flight string such as Dyneema. My point is, bracing a bow at fistmale is going to have a tip movement of 6 inches or so, but you're going to have to bend it much further (maybe 10 inches or more) to get the loop on the knock. So even if you go for a low brace of 3 inches, you might be pushing 7 inches to get the loop on the knock and accounting for string stretch. So, therefore, you should have your bow tillered on the long string at least 8" if not more. I would go more for 10" or 12". I too have had a bow ruined due to bracing too soon. I more a supporter of the long string than floor tillering, but it all depends on how you learned. I personally see no difference in bending the tips 3 inches on a long string vs floor tillering, but at least with the long string you can take a picture, or at least in a better angle to see the bend (face on rather that looking down the belly/back of the bow towards the floor).
Greg, there is a real simple method that will let you know exactly where you are at before bracing. I have been doing it for the past few years on every style bow you can think of. If you want to go to first brace when it is about 12# heavy just read your target weight just as if it were braced, a string loose between about 3" and 6" will read the same as a braced bow or very very close. So if you long string a 50# bow to 24" and brace it you will have about 12# to go. I completely ignore tip movement. It does actually bend about 8" at that point though. I usually make between at least about 1 bow a week or more. A bow doesn't build that much weight because the tips are moving and getting harder to bend, most of the weight gain is because your string angle is increasing and you are loosing leverage. That's why it tends to read pretty accurately braced of loose string.
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Well, neither is floor tillering a true indication of limb movement in the finished bow.
I long string tiller out to 10" of string movement looking for good limb movement and 5# over target weight. That puts it at 10# over finished weight.
Then I string it at a low brace.
That way the stave is not too heavy for the short string.
Jawge
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Steve, early on it's just pulled far enough to see the limbs bend. Usually once I hit brace I start checking tiller by pulling to the intended weight.
I start with a para cord tiller string. Once bending well I build a string for the bow and use it for the tiller string too. I always use a bowyers knot in my strings. That's also one way I pre stretch the B-50 strings I use mostly..
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You should test it!
Take a finished bow and brace it to normal string. Draw to full draw and take a photo. Then brace the same bow to long string and draw to the same draw length and take a photo. Then compare the photos. You will see, that there is a very small difference but it so small that you don't have to care about it. Bends are almost the same. Please, take two photos, edit the string off and make a test here. It is not easy task to distinguish them.