Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: brownhillboy on October 21, 2008, 11:02:46 pm
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I have a small hickory stave that I decided to try and make something out of. It's only 52" long and 1.5" wide. I'm planning on making it a bend through the handle. I've already started it as basically a pyramid design with a 4" handle, 2" fades, 1.5" wide tapering to 3/4" tips. I'm thinking about recurving the limbs also. My question to some of you more experienced bowyers is how long of a draw length do you think I can get away with? Thanks in advance for your help!
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Much will depend on the quality of the wood of coarse. Are you going to back it? I'm not experienced with hickory so some of them southern boys will have to chime in here.
It's a fair challenge to get 28" draw from a 58" bow, but is certainly possible with several different woods. I've made a fair amount of shorties and I think you can hit 26" if you are carefull on the tiller, if the wood is good and get the whole bow working. Definitely flip the tips to help with string angle.
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Don't recurve the tips! That will get you nothing from the bow except heavier mass at the tips where you dont want it. Only time I would do that is if you are going for a bit shorter bow than that. Now what's your standard draw length? Also, where do you live? Is it a dry environment or a humid one? If dry the width should be fine. Now you might want to go for a bit shorter of a draw to keep from over stressing that wood since it is a bit under 68". May even want to put a backing on it. Best way is to try it out and see what you get. Got a picture of the stave? Might give us a better idea what you are working with.
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You are letting the handle bend? I'm confused about your having fades though letting the handle bend through fades can be done it's a tough tiller to get down. Are you backing the bow? Jawge
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As I understand, a true pyramid does bend through the handle, does it not? I see what Jawge is saying about fades, you won't really have fades per se in that in order to bend through the handle the thickness taper will be roughly even through out and you will taper off the sides. I have not done one that short with hickory but I know that set can be an issue so bend through the handle should help with that. I agree with D.Tiller on the nixing the recurves. I think hickory can handle narrower tips than 3/4" as well. It'll gain you better cast by reducing the weight of the tips. If moisture is an issue keep it in the hotbox in between workings and you might be able to keep set from creeping in on ya. Hope it works out, if it does it'll be a good ambush bow. Danny
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If you have cut fads and it bends through the handle it will probably splinter up at the fads.
I would think a 25 maybe 26 if all goes prefect on the tiller as far as draw.If it is only 51 long now by the time you cut the string nocks it will only be 48/49 n-n so anything more than that would be pushing it.It will also probably stack being that short.I would flip the tips a bit to help on the string angle.Hickory is tough,just keep it dry and tiller slowly. :)
Pappy
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What Pappy said, I'd reduce that handle down where any hint of fades are very slight. You can build up the handle with leather to get some depth if you want. I also agree with Danny that in the final stages of tiller the tips could easily be narrowed to at least 1/2" if not smaller. It will result in a better performing bow. Might wait until towards the end to narrow them to give you room to tweak the string alignment... ;)
I would think the bow should handle a 26" draw if bending through the handle, don't know about much more then that though. Maybe someone else has experienced what you're attempting.
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Alright guys, I understand what you're saying about the fades. I haven't actually cut the thickness down yet, so it doesn't really have fades, but I guess I was saying there is a 2" transition in width from each limb down to the 4" handle area. I have a moisture guage which is showing about 8 percent, so I think I'm good on the moisture content. I'm getting totally opposite opinions on flipping the tips! Maybe I'll weigh the do's vs. dont's.
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Oh yeah, for those of you that are concernd about the 3/4" tips, I did that with the possibility of flipping the tips in mind. You're right that if I don't do that, that I should reduce the width. Thanks for the opionions. Keep them coming.
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If you have already narrowed the handle you have fades. Like George said, unless you are an exceptional bowyer it is nearly impossible to get a narrowed handle bending without exploding. Right at the area where it narrows to the handle (fades) it will lift a splinter real easy. If you haven't cut the limbs to a pyramid already, don't. Leave the limb full width for at least half of the length then taper to the tips. If you are trying to get more draw you will want to re curve the limb tips somehow. If you do a traditional re curve you want to use as little limb as possible in the re curve. A better option would be a reflex deflex. The deflex will take some of the stress off the wood at full draw, while the reflex will help with the string angles. Pictures would really help. ;D Justin
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Great advice being given. Justin stated something that had entered my thoughts as well. A slight D/R profile will help. De-flexed at the handle slightly and then a gentle reflex increasing moreright at the tips. Or as I stated earlier just straight profile with the tips flipped up slightly.
The opposing view is more of a confusion of terminology. "Recurved" generally means "static recurves" (non bending) with more mass. That is what DTiller was referring to.
When a bow is that short the string angle will approach 90 deg. before full draw can be reached. Rolling the tips slightly will help keep the string from being pulled off the tip.
A D/R profile will lesson the amount of bend in the middle of the bow to start with and take some of the stress away from that area. Hope that helps.
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Here is a picture of a 54 inch with the tips fliped like I was talking about.They are working
tips.They pull almost out at the end of the draw. Hope this helps.This is a no bending handle
at about 25/26 draw. :)
Pappy
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I agree with the tip-flippers. It will help reduce stacking and finger pinch, and with one that short, there's also the possibility of the string slipping off at full draw unless you kick the tips up a bit. On a side note, why does it seem that everybody lately wants to make 50" bows?
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Simple answere for me Hillbilly. 25" draw if I stand on my tippi toes ;D Might get 28" if I striaghten my right arm behind my head ::)
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Wasn't talking about you, Keenan :) (or even brownhillboy). I'm referring to many of the new guys who come on here and attempt to make a 51" bow with a 28" draw as thier first project, which often is a recipe for failure. I've seen I don't know how many threads that start like: My 53" long 1 1/4" wide ash bow, 73# at 32" has taken a lot of set. Why?? ;D I have a short draw too, Keenan-about 26" or so. I still like some length for stability and safety.
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There is some serious ecperience chimming in here. I think we are gonna learn something if were not careful. Look forward to it. Danny
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Excellent point Hillbilly, It's good to keep in mind that each wood has it's design and stress limits and going short always pushes that window for success. Little short kid bows have been some of the hardest that I have made.
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Part of the reason I was asking this question was to see if I just need to aim for a kid's bow. I recently made a maple bow for my 7yr. old son, and my 11yr. old son wants another (like he doesn't have enough already).LOL. Of course I can't say much either! On the other hand, all of the bows I've made for myself that were around 50# at my draw length, he could still shoot at his draw length. All of those bows were 62"ntn or longer.
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I agree with Hillbilly,it's possible but it dose put a bigger chance for failure.I make a few
short bows just to push the limit some,not bragging but I have built a few bows and have
plenty to shoot so if it goes bad it ant the end of the world.Most of mine are 62/64 that
I build to hunt and shoot a lot with.As for my first several I always went 66 to 70 you can
learn a lot about tiller and then once you get that down pat you can push the limits some.
I know how I felt about my first bows,it is a heart breaker when they blow,I don't like
it now but I am over it in an hour or less and it sure don't make me want to quit or give up
like the first ones did.Plus I find the short ones harder to shoot. :)
Pappy
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I would like to thank everyone for their input and hopefully I'll have a working bow to show you before to much longer. I would also like to respectfully say that just because someone doesn't post very often, or asks a question, doesn't mean that they are making their first bow. Although I am no expert, this is certainly not my first bow. Sometimes people ask questions just to see if other people's opinions back up their own. I'm not sure why a lot of people assume that if you're asking a question, that you're making your first bow. I doubt that any of us could say that we knew it all even after several years of making bows. Any way that's my 2 cents worth. Thanks for all of the responses. By the way, the very 1st bow I ever made was a bend through the handle with fades! Maybe it was just beginner's luck. We'll see!
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Brownhillboy, I apologise if my post came across that way, it wasn't intended like that. That was just a random thought that popped into my head while I was typing-that's why I mentioned that I wasn't referring specifically to you. And unless you tell us a bit about yourself, it's hard to know exactly where you're coming from-with close to 1,500 members on here I'm doing good to remember anything about someone who posts every day. Again I apologise if I said anything that seemed condescending, because it certainly wasn't meant that way. I'm certainly no expert myself, I make one that doesn't break every now and then; but many of the guys on here have already forgotten more about bow building than I'll ever know in my life.
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Thanks Hillbilly. No offense taken. It's something I've noticed from reading other people's threads too. Sometimes I accuse my wife of being over-sensitive. Maybe she's not the only one!LOL.
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Like George said, unless you are an exceptional bowyer it is nearly impossible to get a narrowed handle bending without exploding.
I have to disagree there. My coffee is still kicking in, but I'm sure George did not mean that. Narrowed handle bows break at the fades if you do the fades wrong. More on that on my site: http://analogperiphery.blogspot.com/2007/03/selfbow-handle-dimensions.html
...but now that I look at things again (and coffee wakes me up some more :D) : yes, you really can't have a narrowed handle bending at the the fades. Narrowed handles bows are usually stiff. Bending at the fades equals a broken bow.
At 52" the bow could be drawn 25" inches IF it bends through the handle. Stiffen the handle, and the draw length shortens up quite a bit. More on selfbow length: http://analogperiphery.blogspot.com/2008/06/selfbow-length.html
Also, 1.5" is too narrow for a hickory bow, and way too narrow for a pyramid bow.
What you have there is a kid's bow blank.
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Also, 1.5" is too narrow for a hickory bow
I wouldn't completely agree with that-I used to follow that line of thinking too, but I've seen too many nice hickory bows that were 1 1/2" or narrower. With a stiff handled bow, you may be right unless you add some length, but I saw several people at the TN Classic last year cranking out good shooting hickory bows that were about 1 1/2" wide at the fades. Bendy-handled bows are a different story, also. A 1"-1 1/4" wide bending-handle hickory bow was pretty standard armament for the Northeastern tribes.
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shamus,
i beg to differ, i dont know much by no means! but i believe that brownhilbilly could make a nice bow from a 52" blank and it not turn out a kids bow.... the reason i believe this is becuase i almost did it and it was like my 3rd attempt on making a board bow with pecan... and pecan is close to hickery but not quite as good... and if i came very close to making a bow @ that length with a 26 - 27 " draw i know it is possible... i didnt way it cause at the time didnt have a scale but my guess would be somewhere over 45#'s and i got it made up with out a backing and the only reason i dont have that bow now is cuase i started out trying to make bows before i stumbled across this web site... and i had that bow made up and shot it over a hundred times and it was good until i started trying to finish it with poly and then i decided to shot it with my long arrows and started trying to get 28-29" draw and only then did it splinter and go to hell... had i known that a 26" draw was ok to have for a shorty id still have that bow and be shooting it more often than the rest cuase i really liked the shorty... sooo i might have been very lucky but if someone with a lot more experiance than a first time bower, with only only a few bows under them and only one that has turned out ok, should for sure be able to turn out a 52" bow with hunting capailities...
and it not be a youth bow...
i would think that it is very posible... in fact i have a piece of borad that is 52" in pecan that i was saving to give it another attempt after i get some more experaince ...
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Shamus, as soon as I figure everything out on this new computer, I'll post a picture of a bow that bends through the fades and handle and is make out of oak no less. Almost nothing is absolute. My wife as been shooting this bow for over 2 years.
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Thanks to brownhillboy, Shooter, and Hillbilly for getting me thinking about this. :) Excellent points, and it got me thinking.
Yes, you can get a hunting weight bow out of a 52" hickory blank, but getting a draw length past 25" would be stressing things a bit. You have to creative with your design.
and that reminds me (smacks forehead); I mentioned a 54" bow in a PA article (Bowyery in the 1930s) a few years back that drew 50#@28". So It IS possible to get a long draw out of a short bow. This bow was a 2" wide recurved yew flatbow. The diagram is in that article. I'm not sure it would have worked or not, but I figured it's possible. I think this bow worked because it had more width than usually called for with yew.
man, I totally forgot about that short bow. ;D
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Here's one of the pics of the bend through the handle bow with a narrow handle.
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The handle.
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I'm surprised that there have been no comments about the bow that I posted pictures of on Sat. Some said it couldn't be done, but if I did it on my first attempt then it really can't be that hard because I'm definetly not that good!
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so how many arrows you got thru it so far?
just curious how long its goinf to last if and before it lets go. not saying that it will,just curious how many arrows you can get thru it before and if it does thats all.
other than that the tiller loolks good
peace,
tim
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Well, like I said earlier in the post, I made this bow over 2 years ago(maybe 3), and after shooting it myself for a while I gave it to my wife and she has been shooting it ever since. She doesn't shoot a lot, so I don't really know how many arrows have been through it. I would estimate 400 to 500 arrows. Thanks for responding.
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Good looking bow,I haven't said it couldn't be done ,I just said I wouldn't want to try it,I
did some like that when I first started and they all splinted up at the fads.I probably
had them bending to much there,but after a few I just figured it was better[For Me]
not to do that anymore.I try not to do anything that is to risky unless it is a character bow,
then I will push the limit. What is the weight on that bow ? Sorry if I said something
that upset you,believe me it wasn't meant that way.Just stating my opinion and you know
how that is. ;) ;D
Pappy
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brownhillboy,
it's a good looking bow. I'd like to see a closeup of the handle/fades.
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Pappy, thanks for your response too. I'm not upset with anyone. I just wanted to show that it can be done even by a novice. This was the 1st bow I ever made, and it still shows no sign of failure. I'm attempting to complete the little short hickory that we talked about the same way only with working recurves. I'll post pictures of it when it's done. Shamus, I'll try to get you some more pictures tonight. Thanks.
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Here is a close-up of the handle area. Sorry it took me so long, we had a blue-grass singing at church tonight.
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Here's another.
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Pappy, I didn't have a bow scale when I made that bow. I did know it was lighter than what I wanted. So anyway, after you asked I went back and checked it. It's only 32#@28". Maybe that has something to do with it's success. I'm not sure.