Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: gfugal on December 21, 2016, 03:54:32 pm
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This is a topic that is probably brought up a bit but I need some experienced input. I'm looking to getting me some glue to laminate wood together. I obviously already know about Hide Glue but would like to know which other glues you use with success. This is what I have found out. URAC 185 seemed to be the go-to glue for many people but is no longer in production. Unibond 800 is the replacement glue that the company makes instead, but I heard that it doesn't hold up as good as URAC 185. Smooth-On EA-40 is probably the most popular laminating glue outside of here, but it sounds like it requires a hot box to cure properly or it might delaminate if left in a hot car or something. Have any of you who use it experienced that? I also heard Smooth on has a shorter shelf-life than other glues, which I'm not too keen on. Bow grip 100 also came up in my searches but sounds like there are lots of horror stories of it delaminating and breaking bows. It says it can cure at room temperature but maybe the reason people have problems with it is because it actually needs to be hot-boxed like smooth on. It seems like Heat Boxing is required by many of these glues as well as D.E.R. 383/Versamid 140 Epoxy (formerly known as Epon/Versamid). I don't have a hot box, and I don't really want one since I don't have the space, nor do I know how to make one. Some boat building glues seem promising, with a lot of people using Resorcinol. However, It dries purple which I'm not sure how to feel about, plus I don't know where to find it. G-Flex is another boat glue that has shown potential but I don't know of anyone who's actually used it. based off my research its the one I'm leaning towards, unless someone has reason that it won't work. I might also try 30 min Epoxy/2 Ton Epoxy but I don't know of anyone that's used this either, and I wonder if it can take the flexing of a bow. I Know people use titebond III for backing but don't know if it will work for laminations. From my understanding it doesn't have the gap filling properties like these other glues so the fit has to be perfect.
What do you guys use? What do you suggest I avoid? I hope I'm not opening a can of worms Its just a vast complex subject. I'm looking for something that is cheeper and can be purchased in smaller quantities. A lot of these glues have a shelf life of a a year, give or take, and I don't think I will use a whole quart or even pint before it goes bad. That's why I'm leaning towards the G-Flex or 30 min Epox because you can get smaller containers, and although more expensive per ounce I don't have to pay a butt load in shipping since I can either get it from a store or amazon. I get free shipping with Amazon Prime. I was looking at Unibond 800 and it was like $9 for a pint but was upwards of $17 for shipping. Yikes. I also don't want a glue that will break in temperatures as high as 150 degrees or temperatures below freezing. I heard Weldbond (which may or may not be the same as Resorcinol) doesn't stand the cold.I live in the Utah desert which can get above 100 in the summer and in the negatives in the winter.
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Resintite aka Cascamite etc...
Del
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You forgot TB3
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You forgot TB3
Is TB3, titebond 3 or is it something else i'm not aware of. Is that what you use? If it works thite might be a good option. But I wonder if titebond is significantly stronger than carpenter's glue? I thought it was just a varient of the latter.
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G Flex is excellent and System Three G2 is also. G2 has the advantage of high heat resistance with just a room temperature cure. Around 170.
I'd add System Three Gel Magic to those as well. It is thickened and has all of the strength properties of G2.
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TB3 is Titebond 3 and it is slightly stronger than carpenters glue. I have made many bows using regular carpenters glue. As long as the bow is well sealed and not subjected to very wet conditions then there are no problems
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I laminated a lot of bows with tightbond glues and it works fine but where i live it set up real fast in the summer with the real hot weather we have so i switched to smooth on, you don't need a hot box it cures in 24 hrs but i use my pickup cab for a hot box spring summer and fall till November. It has a long pot life is clear and very affordable
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I use Titebond Two (II)
It's touted for outdoor applications and is pretty good at gap filling.
This a hickory-Osage laminated takedown. Worked fine.
Jim Davis
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Many will work - I use smooth on. As mentioned, does not need a hot box to cure. Also has some gap filling properties.
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I use Titebond Two (II)
It's touted for outdoor applications and is pretty good at gap filling.
This a hickory-Osage laminated takedown. Worked fine.
Jim Davis
As per manufacturer none of the tite bond glues are gap filling
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As per manufacturer none of the tite bond glues are gap filling
Guess I need bigger gaps. :)
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TB3 for me. It's affordable, readily available at many retailers and has never let me down. It doesn't fill gaps but I only laminate dimensional lumber so it's usually nice glue seams anyway.
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I've used system three T88 epoxy. I can pick it up at my local woodcrafters for around 20 bucks. It has a fairly long working time and I dont have to buy large quantities.
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Used Resorcinal a lot in the past, mostly handle splices joining Billets and the occasional patch. Yes it leaves a dark glue line . There are better options these days ! Bob
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TB3 is Titebond 3 and it is slightly stronger than carpenters glue.
I find it quite a BIT stronger than regular carpenters' glue, and Titebond III is almost all I use anymore, along with reinforced superglue for things like nocks and overlays, unless I have a special application where I might buy a tube of epoxy.
There are three keys to using it properly, in my experience. One; because it still has so much water in it, thin lams of some woods will "cup" side to side when applied, which is difficult to deal with without LOTS of the right types of clamps. The cure is wiping down the wood with a wet rag ahead of time and letting it dry thoroughly.
Two; it really doesn't fill gaps well, and I fixed that by doing a dry run, clamping up the bow without glue to look for spots that might give you trouble. I have even had success gluing small shims of hardwood veneer in to build up a spot that's stubborn to come down all the way with clamps. I sand it smooth and check again.
Third, I have found that I get best results using a "sizing" coat of TB III, slightly thinned with water to about the consistency of house paint. I paint both sides of the mated surfaces, let it sit a second, and them smooth of the extra with a popsicle stick BEFORE it really dries. Then, while it's getting pretty dry, but is still sticky, I slather on the regular glue and clamp it up. This gets messy, but TB III is cheap. It also sometimes reveals issues with warping and cupping, as I mentioned.
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"reinforced superglue" ??
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"reinforced superglue" ??
Toughened with added rubber.
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I exclusively use Aerodux Resorcinol, and I buy it by the quart from Amazon. It can be a little pricey, but one quart will glue up about 14 bows, so it's not that bad.
All other glues and epoxies that I have ever heard of can get brittle in the cold, and gets soft in the heat, even to the point of delamination, but resorcinol will NEVER do this. It doesn't get soft in the heat, doesn't get brittle in the cold, and it is not affected by moisture at all. The only down side is a dark glue line, and it doesn't fill gaps very well.
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I have used unibond 800 with great success
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I found T 88 and Gel magic by system three both on Amazon. Their specs indicate that it can cure at room temperature or below and still maintain ideal bond strength up to 160°. I didn't see anything about below zero temperatures though. PatM or Turtle have you had any issues with it below freezing conditions?
I would use TB3 as it clearly works and is quite popular, but requires more intricate fits. I don't doubt i could do that i just don't want to hassel with it, plus i don't want to risk if there is a gap i didn't catch. I would rather be safe and sorry and use one of these gap filling epoxies. It seems gel magic is a better gap filler than T88 and doesn't run but has less working time. I think T88 might be a little cheaper, but don't know if thats because you can buy it in smaller quantities. Since i don't have the experiance yet, more working time would be better so i think I'll go with T88. Its about 20 bucks for 1/2 pint of hardener and resin, can cure at room temp and still be usable at high temps and assuming low temps, and it has gap filling properties.
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Those glues are expected to hold planes together. I don't think planes get grounded during cold weather.
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I am partial to epoxies, and use the system three products because they are locally available. west systems has a good product and "wrote the book" on epoxy for use with wood in boat building. the book is at
http:/ /www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/GougeonBook%20061205.pdf
Rather than use formulations that have additives that increase the viscosity, (but decrease the strength). I use straight laminating resin.
My usual procedure is to mix a batch and apply a sealer coat to warmed pieces, you can set the rest of the batch aside somewhere cold, while the sealed surfaces set up some. Apply a second bonding coat prior to clamp up. the more gap filling you need, the more you can let your remaining batch stiffen.
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I don't shoot bows when its below zero. Not because I don't think the bow will handle it but because if I dress warm enough to handle long periods at that cold it interferes with my shooting.
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All of these glues will work if used correctly.
Everybody has their own glue/glues that they use and this adds a subjective level to these answers.
The easiest way to work out the facts about any glue is to send the manufacturer an email asking for the 'datasheet'. The datasheet will have absolutely everything you need to know and more importantly will have all the relevant information about how to use the glue correctly.
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Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue works very well and fills in gaps up to 20 thousands of an inch. Water based.
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Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue works very well and fills in gaps up to 20 thousands of an inch. Water based.
If i could find that local i would try it but if I'm gonna order something I'll go smooth on
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I use unibond 800 for all my laminate bows. Never had a problem.
On occasion I've used titebond III which works just fine as well it's just not for me. I really like the way unibond sets up.
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I like epoxy. After all the time I spend drying staves it doesn't make any sense to me to use a water based glue.
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I like epoxy. After all the time I spend drying staves it doesn't make any sense to me to use a water based glue.
I was actually just thinking of how it might be advantageous to use a non waterbased glue if you wanted to get that stave bending right after the glue cures.
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A lot of room temp epoxies cure best over a longer period so if you're patient and wait the recommended week or so you're about at the same stage as waiting for actual drying.
Obviously heat speeds this up whether it's room temp or hot box epoxy.
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I would agree with most of what mike and pat have mentioned as important, and would like to add a bit more, as epoxy and glue discussions come up frequently.
within the so called boat builder formulations, system three, and possibly others, you can read the tech sheets online to see what the mechanical properties are.
straight epoxy resin is plenty strong enough, and formulas that cure quicker tend to be weaker, so there is a trade to consider when choosing by cure time.
Additives do not really add strength, they reduce strength while adding other qualities that improve gap filling, so one again, a good fit with a runnier epoxy excels. Keeping glue joints flat really helps. The slower curing, (but stronger), resins just need better gap control, as there is a longer time for it to run before it sets up.
Silica is a common additive to control viscosity, makes a harder finished product, gives it the glass like quality some desire, but makes the cured resin more brittle than straight resin without. Not sure if that is what some users call "stronger"
other additives (plastics?), reduce strengths but add tool ability and/or flexibility of the cured matrix, making easy to sand fillers etc.
the more fillers, the harder it is to mix well. poor mixing also reduces ultimate strength and cure time.
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Can't say more then whats already been said.I'm in the smooth on group.Seen it used many many times.Used it myself many times.No problems.Like bubby said it does not need a hot box.24 hour cure is all too.Long pot life of 2 hours to adjust things if many laminations are wanted.I've used it 6 months from purchase with no problems.Do what it says on the can.
I like tite bond 3 for snake skins and other thin backings.
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I'm wondering about the temperature strengths. The only reason I was hesitant about smooth on is because I heard that if you don't hot-box it initially then it will be a weaker bond at higher temperatures (the exact temp I'm unsure probably well over 120°)? Without the hot-box it should still be full strength at temperatures bellow that unknown temp. Here's the question: if it's exposed to high temps after curing, let's say 150° in a closed car on a hot summer day, will it permanently weaken the bond or only temporary? I doubt anyone is ever going to shoot a bow when it's hotter than 120° outside so if it isn't a permanent weakening then it should be a moot point. I don't know if anyone has the answer to that, but I'm going to assume that it doesn't, as due to the anecdotal testimonies in its favor. I've personally have never used it so I can't say.
Really I don't think there is a superior glue. It's just a matter of preference. If it works then it works. It just depends on the conditions you have. There's no good or bad just works or doesn't work for the conditions.
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I used smooth on last boo bow ...gap filling no hot box required to set....worked fine...gut
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Epoxies do generally cure better at higher temperatures and then withstand that higher temperature if later exposed to it. I believe Smooth-on is one of those.
Epoxy can actually be post cured at a higher temp but I would think it needs to be supported while that takes place.
The benefit to G2 and Gel magic is that they cure at room temp AND have high heat resistance without being heated during the cure or post cured. Gel Magic also improves with post curing.
I'm also told that G2 boasts higher mechanical properties over Smooth-on but the latter clearly has all the properties a bowyer is looking for. You just may be able access a comparable epoxy more readily depending on your location.
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gfugal....I think the danger the specifics say about smooth on was well over 200 degrees if just 24 hour cured with a 1A to 1B ratio.Quite high really.Now that's when the bow is braced too at these temperatures.Un braced not so.No danger.If left to cool down before bracing it is in no danger of delamination.If mixed that way it can be cured faster in the hotbox at 150 degrees for 6 hours.Left to cool to room temperarure it can be braced.If mixed with a 2A to 1B ratio left to cure 24 hours it can still be post cured later for 2 hours at 250 degrees to enhance it's qualities and heat tolerances also of which I don't know it's limits there though.Possibly talking with a rep that info can be found.
That's my interpretation of it.The fellas I shoot with that shoot FG bows are aware of this.They do not leave it strung in a cab on a hot day.Laying outside in the sun no problem though.Bottom line is high heat will not debond it while unbraced.Braced possibly.
The mechanical properties and modulus compression and tension properties are way beyond what wood is.It's specific gravity is just over 1.1So it is dense.
I use a putty knife to size my surfaces with a thin layer.Just the way I've seen it done by my friends.Warming the material prior to sizing is helpful.Warming mixed smooth on prior does loosen it up also.Making sure it is a shiny layer prior to putting laminations together and is done saturating the surface.I want a very thin line for a glue line.Almost invisible if mating of material is done properly.As thin as a sheet of paper or thinner.That's less than 10/1000's of an inch or less.Using in the range of 60 to 70 pounds of pressure is what my friends use.