Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: leonwood on April 13, 2018, 06:30:27 am
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Last week we had a small flight competition along with a traditional clout shoot. No strict classes or rules, just see who shoots an arrow from a wooden bow the longest way.
The weather could not have been better, moderate wind and sunny (first nice spring weekend here in the Netherlands!)
Lately I have been working on a few flightbows and some new arrows (Thanks Tuomo;-)). Finished an ipe/boo mollegabet style bow just in time so I decided to try it at the competition without ever shooting it before.
So my previous personal best was 280 meters (306 yards) with a 55 pound mulberry flatbow and I was hoping to go past 300 meters with this one.
So I shot two spruce arrows and one purpleheart. The purpleheart was too weak and went off to the right but the spruce arrow went 349 meters! (381 yards)
I could not have been happier with the result! Working towards some new personal flight records all winter and got it at the first shoot ;D
A friend of mine managed to persuade a land owner to use his field for flightshooting so we also have a place to test out the other bows and arrows we are working on.
Some specs of the bow and pics:
The bows length is about 60" ntn and draws about 70@26. Glued it up as a moderate rd and it kept it's shape really well. Started off with a little longer levers but they where too unstable so I cut an inch off each to fix that.
String is 6 strand fastflight so that helped a lot I guess
The arrow is spruce and is 26" long and weighs 264 grains. It has no point and a self nock and the balance point is about an inch behind the centre. Fletching is rawhide, a little over an inch long and a little over a quarter inch high
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/801/39600607270_b3b0e47696_b.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/869/26556974907_16b95e9773_b.jpg)
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Congrats, nice one :)
Lovely looking bow :)
But enough of the meters already ;) . Yards is what we want, none of your fancy pants foreign measurements. You'll be giving us draw weight in kilos next ::) .
Interesting that your arrow flew straight with the COG behind centre... I've seen some fly like a corkscrew with the weight too close to centre. Maybe the fatter back end and the flights keep it going straight? Any thoughts, comments anyone?
Is the nock reinforced with horn?
2 pics look like Ipe belly, but in one pic (on the right) the belly looks pale???
Del
PS. I've gone metric every inch of the way ;D
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Excellent shot! Those long low string angle levers are very effective at maintaining efficiency with light arrows. Do you happen to know the speed at which the arrow left the bow? My guess would be about 225 to 230 with clean flight.
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When we talk about center on an arrow I don't believe the true center reflects what the dynamic center actually is. I believe we can have the mass centered slightly behind center but still be in front of dynamic center.
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Real nice shot! 25 kg is a bit over my pull ability, but a good range for a lot of folks. >:D Del, those metrics must be a military thing! The Army spent over 30 years teaching me how to speak metric, now I have to learn to not talk about "kliks"( kilometers) anymore. However, the the Bolder Boulder Road run(walk in my case) is still 10 kilometers(6.2 miles) - it's those darn little milis and centis that give me trouble! It has to be some sort of subversive plot! LOL! >:D. :BB :NN (SH)
Hawkdancer
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In the interest of fairness I confess I do use mm for width and thickness of bow limb as they are V convenient, but I hate all other metric measures with a passion. ;D
I wouldn't recognise a gram or a kilometer if they bit bit me on the backside. :o
Del
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Nice shot Leon. and thanks for the pics, the bow has performance and appearance, especially like the snaky handle.
Del, you are on the wrong side of the pond to complain about euro things, >:D
(did you know that in merica most folks read "New PB" and wonder why the guy is posting about his jar of peanut butter?)
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Congrats, nice one :)
Lovely looking bow :)
But enough of the meters already ;) . Yards is what we want, none of your fancy pants foreign measurements. You'll be giving us draw weight in kilos next ::) .
Interesting that your arrow flew straight with the COG behind centre... I've seen some fly like a corkscrew with the weight too close to centre. Maybe the fatter back end and the flights keep it going straight? Any thoughts, comments anyone?
Is the nock reinforced with horn?
2 pics look like Ipe belly, but in one pic (on the right) the belly looks pale???
Del
PS. I've gone metric every inch of the way ;D
Thanks Del!
You probably know that over here it is meters that count so might as well teach them some metrics here 8)
But the arrow just has a self nock without reinforcement, tried it a few times and did not fail yet so my last few arrows I did it like this.
In the photo the bow has no finish on it so the ipe looks very dull. It has a few coats of danish oil now so it looks a lot darker now. Will take some pics with my “real” camera soon.
We had some tailwind so maybe that is why the arrow worked so good? I will try to make a front heavy arrow of the same overal weight and try it from this bow to see what the difference is!
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Excellent shot! Those long low string angle levers are very effective at maintaining efficiency with light arrows. Do you happen to know the speed at which the arrow left the bow? My guess would be about 225 to 230 with clean flight.
Thanks! This flight stuff is addictive ;D
But no, although I have a chrono I rarely use it. I have to figure out a safe backstop for my flight arrows and will get back with results
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When we talk about center on an arrow I don't believe the true center reflects what the dynamic center actually is. I believe we can have the mass centered slightly behind center but still be in front of dynamic center.
This could well be the case, I am experimenting with arrows a lot now just to figure out the dynamics a bit better. I read all the postst in this forum but somehow just trying what works and what not makes me understand it easier
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Congratulations! Just amazing results! In Finland we can just dream that kind of numbers...
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How wide are the levers?
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Congratulations! Just amazing results! In Finland we can just dream that kind of numbers...
Thanks Tuomo, was just dreaming for me a few weeks ago also but working on "no set" bows and new arrows all winter really pays off
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How wide are the levers?
Not really sure, I just narrowed them as much as possible. I guess they are only 7 mm wide at the tips.
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Congrats! Great results from a well crafted set. Looks like you saved weight out on the tips by using maple, or is that just thicker bamboo?
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Hard work well rewarded leonwood.Congratulations!!!Good feeling to go past your previous best.I like that design.Most all my bows for quite some time have that lever type design.Mostly self bows though.I just shoot through the chrono so far with great results.I'll see what happens at Mo Jam flight shoot with them.Need an education on arrows too I'm sure.I'm ready to eat crow though...Ha Ha Ha.
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Congrats! Great results from a well crafted set. Looks like you saved weight out on the tips by using maple, or is that just thicker bamboo?
Thanks!
Yes I glued an extra lam in the tips. I did this both for weight reduction and to glue some reflex in the levers
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Hard work well rewarded leonwood.Congratulations!!!Good feeling to go past your previous best.I like that design.Most all my bows for quite some time have that lever type design.Mostly self bows though.I just shoot through the chrono so far with great results.I'll see what happens at Mo Jam flight shoot with them.Need an education on arrows too I'm sure.I'm ready to eat crow though...Ha Ha Ha.
Thanks, the feeling of seeing your arrow dissapear on you when you release is pretty awesome. And even better when you can't seem to find your arrows and find out they are 60 yards away in the next field ;D
But I am building a shorter, more extreme selfbow version out of mulberry now, hope to get a new selfbow record as well;-)
Post some pics of the Mojam shoot here if you can, would love to see what everybody comes up with!
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The Mo Jam shoot is just a broadhead type shoot,but I'm sure they'll be plenty of pics like there usually is at Mo Jam.
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Excellent shooting Leonwood! You make it seem too easy. :D I've noticed that you make a lot of recurves, do you shoot flight with them also?
Can i ask what was the deflection of your arrow in 22" spine test?
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Excellent shooting Leonwood! You make it seem too easy. :D I've noticed that you make a lot of recurves, do you shoot flight with them also?
Can i ask what was the deflection of your arrow in 22" spine test?
Thanks! And it was not easy at all, worked on flight bows and arrows all winter to get a grasp on what would work and what would not ;D Loads of improvement needed so I hope to do a little better in the next few of months.
But my best shot from a selfbow was with my black locust hollow limb static. I am working on a few shorter recurves now to see what that does. I am using Steves no set tillering method and that works really well with the hollow limb design.
I am on holiday for the next week so will measure the deflexion of this arrow when I get back. (Send me a reminder if it takes too long beacause I might forget these things after a few days ::))
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Excellent vast for sure . Wish I could get that from my selfbow. Well done. Arvin
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Thanks! And it was not easy at all, worked on flight bows and arrows all winter to get a grasp on what would work and what would not ;D Loads of improvement needed so I hope to do a little better in the next few of months.
But my best shot from a selfbow was with my black locust hollow limb static. I am working on a few shorter recurves now to see what that does. I am using Steves no set tillering method and that works really well with the hollow limb design.
I am on holiday for the next week so will measure the deflexion of this arrow when I get back. (Send me a reminder if it takes too long beacause I might forget these things after a few days ::))
Great!
Well sure it takes a lot of effort and time. But at the same time there are guys who have shot flight for years, without hitting your numbers! Which is impressing.
I agree, monitoring set is really important in flight bows.
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But my best shot from a selfbow was with my black locust hollow limb static.
:OK
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I am on holiday for the next week so will measure the deflexion of this arrow when I get back. (Send me a reminder if it takes too long beacause I might forget these things after a few days ::))
Here is a reminder!
Arrow spine is allways interesting in flight, since it might vary so much between setups. Over the weekend i shot some 100 arrows in really various spines, from 34# to 90# (tested in 22" spinetest). Its really hard to find the right one. Some might seem to get off ok, but then there are ones that leave the bow so smoothly and quickly it makes you reconsider everything!
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Interesting that your arrow flew straight with the COG behind centre... I've seen some fly like a corkscrew with the weight too close to centre. Maybe the fatter back end and the flights keep it going straight? Any thoughts, comments anyone.
I'm not an expert by am means, but I did testing in a ballistics laboratory. It doesn't matter where the COG is in a projectile, as long as the COP, center of pressure, is behind the COG when launched, either spin stabilized like a rifle bullet, or fin stabilized like a missile, or arrow.
Great looking bow, I hope to get performance like that out of a bow some day. Ill be doin it in yards tho.
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Interesting Desert, something I have always suspected, I started moving my COP back a couple of years ago, looking forward to trying them out.
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Just curious, how do you calculate COP on an arrow. From what I've read about COP with regard to bullets, I would assume the fletching imparts drag and rotation so the nose stays centered but is there some rule of thumb formula that y'all are using to estimate where that falls? Do you increase rotation or drag (larger feathers) or both?
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There is a lot involved with center of pressure, it's not a simple calculation since it is dynamic calculation. For example, the COP of a bullet will change as velocity changes, which is also true with arrows, but not enough to talk about since we are dealing with extremely slow velocities when it comes to ballistics. Your fletching is what shifts your COP rearward. So a higher or longer fletching will shift it back. A tapered shaft helps too because this will not only shift COG forward, but help move COP back during flight. Maybe I shouldn't use this as an example, but, the opposite of a tapered shaft would be a long range bullet where the ogive is extremely long, this creates in flight COP in front of COG, a very bad thing. So these have to be spun like crazy to over come the instability of the light weight front end and a heavy rear. With arrows, we don't have to worry about that, but tapering is a solution for flight shooting rather than increasing fletching height, along with its other benefits for flight shooting.
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I have gone with a slight front to back taper and then I come back and gently taper the front 6" just a smidgeon to adjust weight.
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There is a lot involved with center of pressure, it's not a simple calculation since it is dynamic calculation. For example, the COP of a bullet will change as velocity changes, which is also true with arrows, but not enough to talk about since we are dealing with extremely slow velocities when it comes to ballistics. Your fletching is what shifts your COP rearward. So a higher or longer fletching will shift it back. A tapered shaft helps too because this will not only shift COG forward, but help move COP back during flight. Maybe I shouldn't use this as an example, but, the opposite of a tapered shaft would be a long range bullet where the ogive is extremely long, this creates in flight COP in front of COG, a very bad thing. So these have to be spun like crazy to over come the instability of the light weight front end and a heavy rear. With arrows, we don't have to worry about that, but tapering is a solution for flight shooting rather than increasing fletching height, along with its other benefits for flight shooting.
Thanks for the explanation - I understand bullet performance better than arrows so the analogy makes sense. You want a good aerodynamic shape with a high sectional density for long ranges.