Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: buddyb on January 14, 2019, 12:47:23 pm
-
Has anyone made or have pictures of a reverse handle longbow made of all wood laminations similiar to this one with no fiberglass? I'm very interested in this design and was wondering also if its even feasible?
-
This was posted some years ago:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,1925.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,1925.0.html)
-
Thanks for the link, not exactly what I was looking for but close. I don't plan on using bamboo but hickory for the back and belly with a walnut core. Also, on the back I wasn't going to have the hickory glued over top of the riser, just the riser block blued on. It would have the same shape as the picture I posted.
-
Sure it can be done. Go for it!
But, these designs have the backing going over the riser to keep it from popping off.
"Also, on the back I wasn't going to have the hickory glued over top of the riser, just the riser block blued on." -what will keep the riser from popping off in this configuration?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,64620.0.html
-
Wow..... that really just looks like a left handed bow strung the wrong way to me....... Or a right side shooting right hander......
-
I was hoping the glue would keep the riser from popping off. This will be either a straight longbow or a slight reflex. Trying to figure out which glue to use. I have Systems Three T88 on hand but I was also thinking of Unibond or Dap's Weldwood plastic wood glue. If possible I don't want to purchase Smooth-on, I've used it before for glass bows and wasn't really thrilled with it.
The bow pictured is a JD Berry Morningstar reverse grip longbow.
-
I think with a strait bow there would be no performance gain or even with a mild reflexed bows but they look cool, the bows that gain a edge are usually D/R bows like Ben posted , I'm curious why you didn't like smooth on ? The bow you posted was popular with HH bows a few years back !
-
I was hoping the glue would keep the riser from popping off. This will be either a straight longbow or a slight reflex. Trying to figure out which glue to use. I have Systems Three T88 on hand but I was also thinking of Unibond or Dap's Weldwood plastic wood glue. If possible I don't want to purchase Smooth-on, I've used it before for glass bows and wasn't really thrilled with it.
The bow pictured is a JD Berry Morningstar reverse grip longbow.
I'm pretty sure the handle wouldn't stay glued when you start to bend the bow....Why not go over the riser with your backing to make it secure?
I haven't used T88, but I have used Unibond and Weldwood. Those 2 work fine with Unibond being my favorite.
-
Wow..... that really just looks like a left handed bow strung the wrong way to me....... Or a right side shooting right hander......
I know that style can look a bit confusing but that really does just look like it's strung backwards. Those bows do typically have wrap around back lams.
-
Smooth-on works fine I just prefer a thinner epoxy. I'm used to epon/Versamid.
I'm not sure how well hickory will make the bends in the riser is the only reason I was hoping to not put it over the riser. I want to use locally available woods like hickory and maple for the back and belly.
-
Yeah the fit from the riser to the backing needs to be really tight with no gaps. Heat bend the backing to riser fit 1st and you shouldn’t have problems. Hickory and/or maple will bend easily with a little heat at backing thicknesses. And make the riser transition long and smooth, like the one in your picture.
-
I've never heat treated wood before but I can look it up, hopefully not too difficult. Otherwise, I'll use the firehose sysem.
-
How long of riser ? & what thickness backing ? You would probably ok with the fire hose form & a simple strait form would be easy to make , I did some exspermenting a while back with heating bending thicker wood lams & found I was getting some light cupping in the bend I came to the conclusion I needed a male presure peace to insure a smooth bend , I was bending 1/8 lams I never made a all wood lam bow with that tight of ramps but played with the idea I think it would depend on the thickness of the backing lam , I know there are guys here that have used as thin as 1/16 hickory , Im curious what over all taper rate your thinking ?
-
Would the purpose of this to be a shorter draw?
-
The draw length would be 28"
The riser would be 16 or 17". The backing would be 1/8 to 1/16 and the laminations will be parallel. The majority of tillering would be done through the sides and edges of the limbs. The belly lamination may be a little thicker to allow for some tillering on the belly if needed. The bottom limb will be 1" shorter than the top. It will be 1 or 1 1/4 at the fades tapering down to around 1/2" at the tips. The bow will be 66" ntn. The glue up will be in 2 stages; all laminations then the riser or the core and belly lams then the riser and back lamination. I'm not looking for a speed bow but one that will be stable and comfortable for hunting.
-
If you were using osage or ipe for the belly you could get away with that long of a riser, but I'm concerned with a hickory belly and that small of working length. You have a lot of room to setup your fades with a 12" riser. FG bow dimensions don't work well with all wood bows.
You are going to need some thickness taper. So either leave yourself extra belly and you can tiller it in, or pre taper the core and/or the belly before glue up.
-
I can shorten the riser, do you think maple would make a better back and belly or stick to the hickory?
-
Would the purpose of this to be a shorter draw?
+1 and why?
-
I have used hickory and maple for the backs, but never the belly in this style of bow. I would give the edge to hickory/hickory just because it has been tougher in my experience.
-
I think hickory, hickory out of those choices maple can fret easy in high stress bows I had maple/sinew bow fret after about 1100 arrows !
-
Would the purpose of this to be a shorter draw?
+1 and why?
I'm not sure of buddy's reason, but the way I look at it, you stress the bow less with the handle on the back as opposed to the belly.
Let's say you have a 28" draw (measured from your bow hand to the arrow knock) and 1" thick of glued on the belly handle like we are used to. Now take that 1" handle and put it on the back. You still draw 28", but from the limbs perspective, you are pulling the bow 1" less.
People also report that the handle is more stable ( I never know what is meant with that word) and more comfortable. I do find them more comfortable.
-
Hickory it is lol.
It isn't for a shorter draw, I'll tiller for 28" draw.
So it'll look like this back will be hickory and riser, core, black walnut and belly, hickory; 12" riser 1/8 hickory back, 1/4" black walnut core and 1/8" hickory belly; 66" ntn and 1/14 at fades down to 1/2" tips and shooting for around 50-55# draw at 28".
I'll probably use the T88 epoxy I have on hand.
Am I missing something or is there something else to be concerned with?
-
My reasoning is that I think there will be less torque when drawing the bow and the handle just feels good in the hand reversed.
I've made FG longbows, not reverse handle though. I want to get away from FG if possible.
-
I agree, they do just feel good in the hand. Hard to explain.
I would switch your thicknesses on the core and belly, 1/4" belly and 1/8" core, especially if you intend to taper after. You will have to tiller in about 1/8" taper maybe more if you don't pre-taper.
-
I dont know what it is with my FH bows but the handle makes me feel like more part of the bow or Im fighting the draw less if that makes sense , also I dont know what form your using but I have been playing with fire hose topless forms for a while and I came up with a real simple strait bow form by putting dado chanels in the botom of the form and .030 presure strips on the lams with the hose strapped down via mule tape wraped tightly around the hose , it took me 3 D/R bows to get the system dialed in but works great I would bet you could build the strait bow version in under 2 hrs.
-
That reduced torque reason has a ring of truth to me. If I could shoot worth a darn I might try it. :D
-
Yeah Ritchie, it feels like your hand is "in" the bow as you draw it back, and I know what you mean about fighting the draw less.
Like I said, hard to explain ;D
-
I've been toying with the idea of trying the mule tape method too. I copied this picture off of Rustic Archer's page on FB.
-
Ben Im able to draw a much heavier bow then normal with that design for what reason I dont know other then DFC , buddyd if you have any questions on this type form I can save you time and aggravation & $$ it took three rebuilds to work the bugs out for me !
-
Stick Bender I'm all ears on the form construction. I like to do dry runs before glue up and don't know how you can see the transition line between the riser and lamiations for gaps.
-
A couple things I have picked up about making these bows is they put a lot of presure in the fades and lowers & riser area so that junction needs to be as flaw less as you can get it but a problem I think your going to run into with your design with a shorter riser is to have some length in your handle your going to have fairly steep ramps , some things you can get away with glass that just won't fly with a all wood bow but that's just my observation if I where going to make your bow I would do a carry threw riser like the one in the pic but obviously with out the deflex that way I could get a long smooth fade and use a one peace back lam ,with wood the fades work more because you don't have the glass supporting the ramps so I would think the longer transition the better & if you mark the last 2" of the fade at the 2" Mark make it .140 & the 1" Mark .065 and the end like paper and follow the smooth transition up towards the center you would be good as far as easy transition fade but just my thoughts, as far as the form what are you looking to know ? I just saw your question about seeing every thing I actually use zip ties threw holes drilled in the form over the presure strip so it locks every thing in place so no worries about seeing threw the mule tape & air up incrementally but I can still see center marks on the riser & lams threw the openings in the tape ,if you make the form to your lam width you should have no issues !
-
Thanks everyone for your input I hope to start on this in a few weeks, I have to finish our kitchen island first.
If anyone thinks of something else please let me know.
-
Keep in mind Im just speculating on your design in a all wood FH bow but made enough of these in glass to know where the weak points are in the design and even weaker in all wood in the pic is a bow I was exspermenting with thoughts of doing one like yours the riser is a typical 14" ASL design it works great for a all wood bow but if I where to reverse the handle & add a belly lam it would probably be to steep but could easely change the ramp angle to a smother transition and still have a decent handle length releving some of the transition pressure, that bow had a taper rate of about .005 , if I used less taper & reversed the handle in my mind I would run the risk of it popping or delam if it had a belly lam ! Just for food for thought !
-
Stick Bender what glue did you use on those two and what wood did you use, it looks like there's bamboo on the one side.
I'll admit I'm a little apprehensive about my design but if I don't try it I'll never know for sure. If it doesn't work I'm making one just like it but not reversed and the belly lam won't come up over the riser. I'll glue all the laminations together then add the riser on top of the stack.
-
I used smooth-on all my bows , Im not thinking your design wont work Im just throwing some thoughts that are minor changes that would help with less stress , go for it Bro like a friend of mine says there is only one way to find out :D
-
Stick Bender do you have an idea of how long of a piece of mule tape I'll need? I see there is a place on ebay that I can buy it.
-
I bought a 300 ft spool of 5/8 and Im glad I did I found if I almost put the hose in a cacoon of the stuff it gives a nicer glue up I didnt use the whole spool but maybe 2/3 , I did one glue up with less and the hose put more presure on the edges & I ended up with slightly concave limbs it was a bear to tiller and drop weight but ended up being my personal fastest bow to date go figure ! on the following glue up I used more tape and more in the riser area and the limbs turned out perfect & dead flat , that form you showed that guy used artificial sinew to strap his lams to the form with no presure strip
I was to afraid to try it for fear of hinging in the tie down areas and hose indents in the belly ! Also with the form & your new design you could make your form say 1 3/8 wide just incase your design is to narrow at 1 1/4 you can always side tiller to your desired dimension but hard to add wood back on :OK
-
Thanks.
I'm going to start out with my bow being 1 1/2" wide and will narrow it down to final dimensions.
Have you tried putting a thin piece of wood about 1/4 inch narrower than your form to help offset getting the concave in your limbs?
-
:OK no because its a non issue now I could have gone with a thicker presure strip to but the exstra tape solved the issue !