Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ber643 on November 18, 2008, 08:46:32 pm
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This is another project that I started elswhere (because I was asked to join in a multi-person Sapling build thread). I ment to start posting my part of the thread to here also, much earlier but just couldn't seem to find time to get started - due to hunting, making bows, remodling carport/shop area, and family considerations. (Ahm so corn-fused ;) )
I am about half way through it (the sapling bow). I will be (once more) making quite a few posts before catching this thread up. As before I will add something like, "(more to Follow)" at the bottom of each post until I do get it caught up to current. Hope you enjoy it. Oh, slight disclaimier - still don't know if it will end up worth a hoot - but it is kind of interesting, I think. Of course it may not be finished until the second Tuesday, of the fith week, of the 13 month ;D.
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Most of you who will look at and read this thread, have come to know these things about me: 1) I'm slower than most everyone else, 2) I tend to take more pictures (probably more than needed) than most others, and 3) I flap my jaws ("talk") a whole lot more than most - LOL. Just wanted to make sure you are all prepared for that. I've pretty well decided, on my own, that the first Holly tree I cut dosen't quite fit Webster's definition of a sapling. That august reference book says "not over 4 inches in diameter at breast height," and mine was a little larger than that. So after it got light (and I had breakfast) I went out and cut a smaller one for this project.
Well I went out this AM (between helping my wife get Halloween decorations and blow-ups put up) and after a while I found a smaller Holly that I think will do for me. I found out that I now have more bigger Holly trees than I do small ones. I'll post the pics I took of harvesting it now, and I'll try to get it debarked this afternoon, and have the other pics then. (Most folks love pics.) This sapling is about 2 1/2" at center (about 2 3/4" at bottom). As you will see, it has a crook but I think I have a "plan" for that.
My "woods"/bush was so thick where I found this sapling, getting a pic of the whole tree was difficult:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS001.jpg)
When I cut it, it had to just come straight down:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS002.jpg)
I had to top it (cut top off) while it was still standing straight up, then the top came straight down also - you can see it and it's branches standing in the middle of the pic - to the right of the piece I cut off (laying on the ground):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS003.jpg)
Back on the lawn, I could get a clear pic of my sapling, and the tape shows where the 6 foot measurement is (a little short of where I cut the toip off):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS004.jpg)
This pic shows that the halfway point (3 feet) will fall right in the center of the crook. My "plan" is, I think I will try to turn it into a set-back handle, just for kicks:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS005.jpg)
(more to follow)
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Hows this for fast debarking, when I expected it to be a chore. I used my modern Draw knife . I don't (didn't) like it as well as my old one but it's a good one, and sharp. I like it a lot better now. Man it zipped right along with that thin but green bark. Made a mess though (which I cleaned up and took a pic). (I think I will attack my bigger Holly also while I am on a debarking roll, and before it gets any drier.) Then I will come back to This sapling and scrape the remains of the cambium off, and pre-shape it. Only took about an hour and a half to do this one, I'm pleased.
Now it looks like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS006.jpg)
When I debarked my small sapling for this thread, I didn't try to get the cambium too, as I wanted to debark my larger one before it got to tight on me. When I did the big one, I got smart and got the cambium at the same time - LOL. However, when I went back to my one for this thread today, I had to tackle the cambium layer I'd left on. It was, as you can imagine, a little drier - still damp but was more like debarking all over again - I'll know better next time (if I can remember - LOL). Anyway, below it stands in all it's nakedness (kinda pretty wood too) and awaits my shaping attempts. I may do some of it tonight, if I'm not too worn out already. Again, here you can see my planned setback handle area clearly. It should look a lot whiter than in the last pic (unless that cambium just got a lot darker since yesterday). I did this part with my trusty old time drawknife, using it mostly as a scraper :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS007.jpg)
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Oh-oh! I was going to show the progress I made last night on shaving the belly down towards the drying state. I may be out looking a new sapling today. As I went to take the picture, I looked at my sapling sitting there in the vice, and realized I put it in upside down last night before starting on it - even after marking it - DOH!. (That's what I get for trying to watch the Presidential Candidates Debate on my wife's portable TV while working on a bow. Should have known better.)
Anybody ever hear of a "set ahead" handle??? Or should I retire this one and head to the woods again? (I can't just make the shaved part the back as there are two many knots there that I cut through, instead of working around.)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS008.jpg)
I'm gonna go eat breakfast - or maybe I'll just, "go eat worms" -
(more to follow)
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So, it's a handle-forward/ahead design then, eh? Well it would be as interesting as a set-back handle, I suppose - and there is nothing unusual about me doing the unusual, that's for sure. Perhaps I will forge ahead, and keep shaving the limbs (belly) down a little more. I can always tuck the happening away in my "memory bank" as a "don't do again" item. LOL - I can deal with the supposed good feel and looks of a forward handle. It's a done deal (if it works); I've already been in there shaving some more on it since my last post. Gotta make up for lost time. If it works out, I may just name it "De-bait" (for a little whimsicle play on words).
I thought I accomplished quite a bit today - then I found out I just did a lot of work - LOL. Like Manny said about David's, I think mine is a "tree" too. This morning before breakfast I scribed lines on the sides to see where I should take the belly down to for pre-shape. In the morning I shaved and (Farrier) rasped the one limb to it's lines, and then this afternoon, I shaved and rasped the other limb to it's lines. I guess I'm really just down to the center of the "tree". Anyway it is still as stiff as any 4x4. If I'm supposed to leave it full width while drying, then apparently I must make it a lot thinner on the belly to get it bending, it seems. (It is only about 1 1/4" thick at the deepest part.) I need to get it to where I can strap it down for drying in order to straighten out the one limb, in particular, soon. Anyway here are some pics of my Holly after todays work.
Horizontal view still in vice - Belly on top:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS009.jpg)
Standing side view, in which you can see the forward curved handle (to the left):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS010.jpg)
Standing Belly view, and you can see that i am just begining to shave into the belly side of the handle at the center of it's forward curve:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS011.jpg)
(more to follow)
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All right - I've removed width (though I must take a little more off the lower Limb), and started to shape the handle a little smaller (with mostly a Four-in-Hand Rasp) after discovering, not only does it (the handle area) curve forward but to the right also. I still will take a little more off the belly side before trying to strap it to something for drying. As you can redily see,the sapling is a crooked rascal and I will need to do a lot of straightening. I ran a chalk line and it only touches the limbs at the last foot or so on each end - mostly caused by the offset of the top limb, though the bottom limb has a "nice" little crook in it too. I do think once the stave is straightened (optimist!) the string will pass nicely to the left side of the handle. It's going to be interesting to see if I can pull a bow of any account out of this malformed rascal - LOL
Belly view:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS012.jpg)
Side View:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS013.jpg)
Back view:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS013.jpg)
(more to follow)
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I coated the ends and back of my "sapling" with white glue (couple more coats) yesterday to prevent cracking while it's drying. I will go get some more rachet straps today and see if I can convince it to straighten up it's self some during that period. I'll post a pic if I can get it strapped decently. If I can't, I may strap it to a stick of dy-no-mite!
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Now I am going to post what I have done to start the straightening process on my own goofy stave/bow - strapping it down. It is a little picture heavy but I think that is the best way to explain it and hope y'all won't mind, and might even get usable ideas from it. It also, of course, has drawbacks, and may not work well or as compleatly as I would like it too but, if not, I can then resort to heat/steam. Bear in mind, this is only used in conjunction with the drying time. I used a similar process to straighten twisted vine sticks that I wanted to make walking sticks out of. I strapped those to the leggs of my shooting tower but they are smaller (as were those saplings). Also those saplings still had their bark on them so I didn't worry about rain. With this sapling, since I am using washable white glue to seal the ends and back, if/when it rains, I will have to reapply the sealant, after the rain - one of the drawbacks I guess.
Here we go. I used Ratchet Straps because they are easier to use and to adjust the leaverage/tightness, etc as the stave dries. (and I have arms like toothpicks ). If you have normal arms (and strength) you could use belts, rope, bungee cords, dog leashes, well, you know what I mean.
The first pic shows the sapling, pre-shaped and sealed, standing against my "Stake", (which, as you can see, is a stout tree, Oak), just to show how the limbs deviate in ways I prefer them not to:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS015.jpg)
(It is time for supper - so I will post this part, to make sure I don't lose it, and then continue the pics/process after I eat.)
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I'm back and will continue. I did enjoy supper, thank you. It doesn't take me long to polish off Rose's Home made Turkey Soup and Cornbread - LOL.
I now strap the bow at the handle area, as that is what I decided I want to be in the center, or to the right, of the limbs, if possible. You can see how this makes the top limb,and the very bottom end of the bottom limb (below the "whoopty" curve that I'm not too worried about), deviate farther to the left of center (as we are looking at it):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS016.jpg)
I put a strap above the first, where the top limb starts to deviate to the left, to help hold the bow in place and to start that wild top limb moving in towards the tree:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS017.jpg)
Next we drop down to strap the bottom in to the tree, as it needs to come the least distance but, at the same time, we don't want the pressure on the top limb to make the bottom limb move out further. We will adjust (loosen/tighten) these straps as we put the others on, for the optimum straightness that we can get at this time, without stressing the wood too much at a time. Remember we can tighten/re-adjust daily as it moves, we don't have to do it all at one time, and sometimes can't:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS018.jpg)
Now back up to the center, and then top, of the top limb with two final straps, to draw that errant limb in closer to the tree - and adjust all of them if needed:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS019.jpg)
I was lucky this time and really needed very little pressure on any of the ratchets to straighten this piece of wood pretty well. As it dries the straps will/may tend to loosen, so they have to be watched and tightened if needed, so as not to lose what you gain, IMO.
After adjusting and checking all the straps, bow, and pressure points, I hang the bag that I tote my rachet straps around in, on one of the rachets - to store the long straps in (off the ground):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS020.jpg)
One final pic from the other side to show the strap hooks there, and it also gives a little better view of the stave/sapling/bow, because of where the light was coming from - I think:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS021.jpg)
(Hope this was of interest to you all - either for now, or to store in your memory banks for later, if you've never tried anything like it before.)
It's kind of like Nature's own forms, utilized for my purposes, instead of making forms. Also, if it doesn't work, then I am in perfect position to revert to my New England heritage and "burn the witch at the stake"!
(more to follow)
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Here is my pre-shaped sapling bow after applying Manny's suggestion of "decorating it for Haloween" in some black plastic . Hoping to help drive the moisture content down a little quicker while it is strapped down in straightening position. Hain't it purty, all dressed up for the spooky party?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS022.jpg)
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WRONG - Manny explained his meaning further.
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Ooops - no problem, Manny, I'll correct that easily first thing in the AM. If I'd stopped to think, I would have known it (the moisture) needed an escape "hatch" or it would condense right back into the wood, especially with the plastic touching it. There I was trying to "seal" it all up (as David implied, like a person in a torture chamber - LOL). In fact I will go out and loosen the ends to let some moisture escape tonight , if it wants to - LOL. It made sense to me, Manny, I just didn't think about it enough - I really know better. Sometimes i just don't trust my own common sense as much as I should - if it's something new.
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Remodling the black plastic "Hot Box" for drying my stave/bow. A couple of treated landscape timbers, that we have laying around, Strapped to the tree, top and bottom, will form the sides nicely - to act as standoffs for the plastic covering. BTW, I will most likly cut 1 1/2" off each end of this stave after drying. That will still leave me a 68" length, and will eliminate that lump at the tip-top that is formed by a cluster of 3 nasty knots:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS023.jpg)
There, now we have something that looks more like a proper coffin for Countess Dracula (only with open ends). Now, I hope it will draw in enough sun heat, and drive enough moisture out, as it is supposed to cool back down this weekend:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS024.jpg)
Referring back a little, I said, due to the cold front (and rain) moving in tonight, that I had better dismantle my sapling Hot Box . I did that with the idea in mind that if I need to set it back up later (and the weather reverses) to continue drying and straightening, then I will. Also referring back, when earlier pictures showed the limbs heading off to different points of the compass, I believe I mentioned that I tried to run a chalk line on the center of the would be bow, and it only touched the limbs for about a foot at each end (yuk!).
Well, again today we saw no Deer, unless we count the one I had bust out of a field, turn down the side of the road, and "race my truck" as I was heading towards our hunting place. What the hey! Oh well, at least that was pleasurable. However, when I "unveiled" my plastic wrapped sapling/bow and started dismantling all of its straight jacket straps, a much more satisfying result met my eyes. Apparently, there had been "a whole lot of straightening going on" and it held its new shape as the straps dropped away, one by one. "Yes!"
I brought the Holly in and took a similar pic (similar to many of my earlier ones, that is) to show the new shape of the top limb and overall bow. I still have some propeller twists towards the end of each limb and the "whoopty" curve in the bottom limb to deal with, but I'm pretty pleased:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS025.jpg)
I then decided to try running a chalk line again - just for kicks, which I then darkened with a felt tip so y'all could see it too:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS026.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS026.jpg)
Now, I don't know if this will hold (don't really know how dry the sapling bow is, but it is much lighter in weight). In any case it seems to have helped, and some of the, still needed, work may be a bit easier to do now - we'll see, eh?
(more to follow)
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am doing some rasping on my bow right now - still shaping and floor tillering as I go. It seems pretty dry now, and not loosing much more weight daily. At least not other than I would expect from the wood I am taking off with the rasp. Got to get it down to where I can get string nocks on it - soon, I hope. As soon as I get any significant change in looks, I will post pics again - if all goes well.
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I picked up a new workbench and vice yesterday (so I can have one inside, and outside) so I am going to be busy for a couple days or so, changing tables, vices, and other furniture/tools around to make my two work stations more "Bernie friendly" - I hope - I promise though, that I will try to continue a little shaping on my sapling bow, between bouts of exhaustion -
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Thanks, I got things pretty well put back together (in the new configuration) where I can at least work at either station. As I mentioned before, a lot of periphiral work to get things completely like I want them. Spent a little time on filing my bow this AM and will again in a few minutes. Might even take a pic of it - just to show off the "new" "glory hole room" work station - LOL.
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Here is a pic of a little shaping started on the handle of my Holly sapling bow:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS028.jpg)
And here I changed it's position in the vice and backed off - so you can see the early shaping of the whole bow (and the new work bench and station - LOL) You can see the table is shorter giving me more room to work on the bow without crowding the bow rack on the closet door, and a bit higher for comfort, also has a peg board back for handier place to put tools - as well as a couple drawers (behind the drop cloth):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS027.jpg)
I knew I was going to have to shift more "stuff" but thought I could at least work, "as was" last evening. However, this AM I went to make my sapling tips a little smaller, for a start, and found that, with the new workbench also being narrower (in Depth), The chest of drawers that used to be in the corner was now in the way (of my elbo). My wife came up with a quick fix idea, and now the chest is against the side wall (as I enter), and the narrower racks that were there, are now stacked in the corner (where the chest was). AND the sapling tips then got a little smaller - LOL. (and a lot of smaller stuff also got moved in the process - of course as you probably can notice, my horses are now looking for a new "pasture") :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS029.jpg)
Thanks, - I can fully understand any confusion (about my spaces) however, some of the folks who read here have seen pics of my work spaces (bench inside, and tillering tree in carport) in my threads so many times recently (and still are seeing them) that they probably know my spaces almost as well as their own . Besides Folks get ideas from other folks spaces, just as you guys did with the drop cloth (table cloth) . With that in mind I will finish the changes off with two more pics - because (hopefully) they will be seen a lot of times in future threads as well - I moved the big table, from my glory hole room to the carport, and replaced a small work bench with it to give me more room for my grinders (under the back 2 plastic boxes), and my small electriic hand tools (saws, drills hand sanders, etc.) inside the front two plastic boxes - all to keep down humidity damage:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS030.jpg)
Then I used the (old) small work bench (set free by the big table) to mount my new vice and my belt sander on - in the middle of the carport, across from my "tillering tree" on the far wall - giving me also a place to work my tillering rope, camera, etc. from:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS031.jpg)
OK - now I'll leave that stuff, so as not to confuse anyone more than I may have already -
(more to follow)
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After getting that all done the last two days or so, this afternoon I could enjoy it all, while scraping and filing my bow down more. Hope to start tillering before too many more days. Now the sapling/bow looks like the below pics.
Side View:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS032.jpg)
Belly View:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS033.jpg)
Back View:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS034.jpg)
Oh, when I mentioned the horses "looking for a new pasture", I just ment the horse statues, that used to be on the chest of drawers, are now in boxes in the storage shed - waiting for us to find a new place to put them - smile. I have a lot of horses in a number of places around the house.
By the advice of my local teacher, Mike, (and my own good experiences following his advice) I like to leave anything other than large adjustments (like the one I did with the ratchet straps) until I see how it pulls, when I start exercising it a lot (during tillering and short draw shooting). Quite often small adjustments seem to iron themselves out and become non-problems. I may try to leave the handle off-set, even though I will have to be careful that it doesn't cause me to torque the bow when drawing - we'll see about that. I think that, if the bow is not dry, that it must be very close to it - this reckoned by weight and behavior under the draw knife and rasp.
Holly Sapling Bow, belly view - progress:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS035b.jpg)
I've taken my handle down quite a bit (not 3/4" yet, though - LOL) and the area around it some also but I want to try to do some more before posting pics. I may take one at this stage though and then post it along with the next one I take, after some more work.
I'm slimming it down some - slow but sure - and getting closer to doing some heat bending. I also took a little more off the belly and sides and it is beginning to bend a little, rather nicely. My "newer, slimmer" Holly :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS036.jpg)
It dawned on me that you might not be able to see the difference all that redily (although the shape is a little different too) so I fastend the ruler to it with a rubber band and took a close-up of the handle. You can see it is now 1 1/4 to 1 3/8" wide at the handle (originally, as I recall, it was about 2 1/2" and a much deeper curve in the handle):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS037.jpg)
I may still take it a little smaller before bending - I'll decide tonight or tomorrow
(more to follow)
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I did some more rasping and scraping on my handle this AM and set things up for some dry heat bending. My first set-up broke the base board on my little adjustable "work bench - el cheapo but handy), so I had to fall back and regroup. I then went to a 4x4 to replace the base board (it'll still be useful - maybe more so). My little "forms" are two halves of an old triangle whetstone holder (they make pretty good ones too).
Basic Set-up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS038.jpg)
Put some aluminum foil over the 4x4, for protection of it, and reflection of the heat up onto the underside of the handle/bow, and put the heat gun to her:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS039.jpg)
Moving the gun slowly back and forth on 3 sides of the bow, until the handle was too hot to lay/leave my fingers on it comfortably:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS040.jpg)
After it was heated well, I quickly slapped 3 clamps on it (one heavier one). Right now it is cooling down:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS040.jpg)
I still may have to do it again (couldn't go any tighter on the clamps, with the "forms" placed where they were) but I will wait for it to cool real good first. Then I will try to take the curve out of the bottom limb, before I decide whether the handle needs more straightening or not. More pics later. (Don't know if I'm getting anywhere, or not, but I'm having fun and getting practice.)
(more to follow)
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More heat treatment (my back gets one next - )
Trying to take out some of the "whoopty" (curve) in the bottom limb - same heat gun proceedure:
More heat treatment (my back gets one next - )
Trying to take out some of the "whoopty" (curve) in the bottom limb - same heat gun proceedure:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS042.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS043.jpg)
Then back to the handle only a little more on the upper portion of it:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS044.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS045.jpg)
Neither of them moved quite as much as i would have liked but was able to straighten things some. I layed a string on it and it looks a lot better. (still a little twist in the end of each limb I may have to deal with later). I will do some more shaping, see how it looks then, and try to bring it closer to tillering stage tomorrow. But before I start any tillering I will see if I need to try a little more heat straightening first.
After the bow cooled off I stood it up, and it does look enough better to warrent another pic tonight. (It may look even better after I do a little more shaping in the AM.):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS046.jpg)
(more to follow)
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Just barely a floor tiller, at this point as I haven't been (and didn'get to today either) taking any off the belly (or edges) lately - while messing with heat bending and working on handle. I did do some more shaping on the handle today, during what little time I had. It is looking and feelling pretty good now in my hand but not sure if it looks much different in pics. In that position, and at night, the flash washes out the "whlte Holly " some - loosing the shape/edges. Anyway I got it enough smaller (the handle area) that I felt it would heat bend again, if I put the "form blocks" a little further apart than last night. Looks like it worked (same kind of pics as last night). After it cools, if there is noticable change I will take a standing pic again - maybe it'll show the handle shape better too.
Before heat application:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS047.jpg)
After heat:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS048.jpg)
Well, the heat allowed a little more alignment of the handle/bow. This time, after cooling, I took a picture of the bow from the side to show the shape of the handle now to better advantage (the width of it now is only about 1 inch - BTW):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS049.jpg)
(more to follow)
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For those who wonder about Holly, from what I've been told about Holly (here), it may not make the fastest or flashiest bow, but it definitely will be a strong and lasting bow, if done right (watching the knots). I like the look and feel of the wood, when you hit clear patches - smile. It's fairly dense, and the fibres seem to be quite interwoven. It rasps/files well and sands nicely - IMO. Scrapes well too, except for the knots. Hope that helps. I believe either Censu or Asier (on Paleoplanet) said that they used a lot of Holly where they are (Malta and Spain).
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I really like the sort of molded grips and/or Bulbuous ones (as covered by Dean Torges in his "Hunting The Osage Bow" - and on his web site I believe) and or combinations thereof. I went to work on tapering the edges of my bow this AM (used mostly Farrier's Rasp, Four in Hand, and then a cabinet scraper - did use a draw knife in one area where more had to come off). After that action the floor tiller is a little more pronounced. I'll probably take a pic this PM. I'll soon get my nocks filed in and start taking the belly down in thickness.
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Posted on Halloween:
As I promised, a pic of the Holly after tapering the sides to the tips earlier today (belly side). ....... oh, and "TRICK OR TREAT":
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS050.jpg)
Dark Soul, a friend from another country, after seeing that last pic, suggested a name for this sapling - I made the following reply:
"Hollyween", eh? That is not a bad idea, D S, I was thinking something along those lines, when I viwed the pic just after taking it but I didn't think of combinning the words that way - I may just do that, if the bow survives. I really like to use "plays on words" like that. Thanks for the idea. (I did decide to adopt the name, and you will see it used in subsequent posts - of course I may not finish the bow until NEXT Halloween - LOL)
(more to follow)
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I did manage to get some scraping (after filing) on the "Hollyween" belly yesterday. A little more today and I'll cut in (file) nock grooves - so I can get a long string on it.
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Some more pics after a bunch of rasp and scrapping, and some heating and bending. You can see, I've cut nocks. Got a long string on but not on the tree yet - heavey rain here yesterday and today.
Some straightening of "propeller" tips (both tips, more to do):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS051.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS052-1.jpg)
Belly:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS053.jpg)
Nock:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS054.jpg)
(Right) Side:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS055.jpg)
Back:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS056.jpg)
I've also done some more shaping since the last pic and have more heat/bend proceedures to tackle too- more pics soon.
(more to come)
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Berney,
I am very impressd with your progress and the way you have problem solved and taken the care in the curing of your stave. Excellent tutorial for anyone ;)
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Thank you, Keenan - that's a very encouraging and kind thing to hear.
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After some more filing, scraping, heat bending, and shaping Here is how Hollyween looks at floor tiller, top limb up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS057.jpg)
Bottom limb up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS058.jpg)
No, the handle isn't bending, that's it's shape. I will put it on the tillering tree next, with a long string. However, we start on closing in my carport/workshop tomorrow (which is where my "tree" is mounted) so, depending on how well/quick that goes, it may be next week before I can get to tillering.
(more to come)
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This is great!! What do you think of holly as a bow wood?
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Having a little trouble (for some reason), at this point, trying to keep the tips (propeller twists) straight right now, and a little leery of putting it on the tillering tree for fear of the string slipping off. I may have to cut the grooves deeper and see if exercising will help straighten the twists. I heat them out, let it cool real good before unclamping, and they look pretty good. Then before I can get turned around good they are back askew - without doing anything to the bow. I tried both longer heat periods and longer cooling periods. I'll keep trying but it has slowed me down considerable - LOL. Must be the Hob-gobblins!
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Last few days I've been feeling pretty puny (since Thurs. PM) so haven't accomplished much of anything. I did get out to my tillering tree one PM long enough to find (much to my surprise - guess I'd been concentrating too much on left and right deviations to notice it) that the top limb of "Hollyween" took off downward at about a 15 degree angle from the handle, while the bottom limb went pretty straight (for a sapling) out from the handle (on the tillering tree that is). Big dissappointment, since heating and bending hadn't been working too well on the rascal for other areas I've been working on. This AM I finally felt well enough to get (part of) my brain cooking again, and figured out a way to brace the bow, while heating and bending, that might bring the top limb closer to level. As the following (before & after) pictures will show, it seemed to work to a fair degree (also to my surprise - ). Now if it will just hold that shape , perhaps I can proceed with tillering, when I can get back out on the tree. (She really is a witch, you know - even if a rather attractive one - )
Before:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS059-1.jpg)
After:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS060-1.jpg)
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I'm not 100% yet but feeling much better today (wish it would warm up again though, but that's just me), and was able to post this thread tonight. I was out and about a little today and hope to be tomorrow - and then I should be forging ahead - LOL. Caught up to date now, and thanks for looking in again.
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david w, I made a few comments on the first page (about 2/3 of the way down), about Holly in general, and I pretty much find it that way to work with. I don't know a lot about it as a finished bow - yet - LOL. I do have one youth weight bow out of a smaller yet Holly sapling that my friend Mike made. He gave it to me as a rough bow to finish shaping, sanding and finishing - to use for any kids or ladies that I might need it for. I liked the way it finished up and it shoots pretty nice, though I don't get to pull it to my full draw. I would think it will be pretty consistant and tough for the right person. I loved the way it finished up - I did it natural, with Tru-oil, and put some Native American decorations on it in Black. I'll copy what I said earlier in the thread, here also:
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For those who wonder about Holly, from what I've been told about Holly (here in NC), it may not make the fastest or flashiest bow, but it definitely will be a strong and lasting bow, if done right (watching the knots). I like the look and feel of the wood, when you hit clear patches - smile. It's fairly dense, and the fibres seem to be quite interwoven. It rasps/files well and sands nicely - IMO. Scrapes well too, except for the knots. Hope that helps. I believe either Censu or Asier (on Paleoplanet) said that they used a lot of Holly where they live (Malta and Spain).
...................................................
BTW I did get my carport/workshop closed in on two sides (all I intended to close in) and got my tillering tree set back up, except for the graph boards (behind the bow limbs). I'll put those back up as soon as it warms up - just a tad. You'll notice it in future pics, once I get to tillering again.
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Thanks Bernie, this is a great thread to watch. I lost touch with your thread on splitting that other old bit of gnarly Holly, whatever happened to it?
Magickally the Holly is associated with protection and with overthrowing old power, bringing in the new - should make a good bow come the revolution! it doesn't tolerate malice or evil ... so no nasty thoughts while you are looking at the neighbour's yappy dog with it in your hand, or it might just turn on ya! Seriously though, this looks like a really good bow hidden away in there. Thanks for showing us your patience and skill in teasing it out.
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Thank you so much, jape, both for the additional info on Holly and for the encouragement. I'll try to keep "the good thoughts" while around Hollyween - LOL. I still have those pieces from the Gnarly one and may yet attack them in a letter time period. I have a wild cherry (Choke Cherry) barely started now, and an Osage stave on it's way to me, so the ragged Holly "staves" may have to wait in the wings. It (the splitting)was an experience in itself though.
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Thats cool Bernie. I think it would look really neat if you fliped the tips up a little bit. Deflex reflex..... :)
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Outstanding, Bernie. You are working hard on that stave. Jawge
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Thanks, Ryan. I might not mind doing that if I could get this rascal to hold any heat bending. I am having the worst time with that. She really has a mind of her own and seems to revel in trying my patience - ;D . If I ever get her in line (even close) to how I want her, then I might at least try to flip the one tip, at least, to match the natural flip in the other tip (don't know if you've seen/noticed it - about the last 3 or 4"). I need someone like you who is a past-master at R/D to come down here and sit on her for awhile (teach her some manners - :D )
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Bernie, if the moisture content is to high still it may resist being heat bent, or at least want to warp back to its original shape. You might try steaming the area's you want to bend over a pot covered with tin foil. This should help speed up the drying process as well. Once you get the limb hot and bent on your form leave it on the form for like 24 hours.
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Cool thread,All the problem solving going on.That's what is fun for me on this bow building stuff,
it makes you think and then try and figure a way to solve it.It don't always work but you learn a lot about what you can get away with and what you can't.Nice job.I agree with Ryan on the steaming.
Pappy
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Thanks Jawge, Ryan, & Pappy. I considered that perhaps it was still green enough to need steam, instead of dry, heat but from the weight and size reduction, as well as the feel look, etc., I would think the moisture content is way down (I may be wrong, of course. Perhaps I'll try the steam heat and see if it works.
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Bernie, it can feel dry on the outside and still be pretty moist inside. Unless your using a hot box or in a desert I don't think that wood is dry enough yet just cut fresh in October. White woods need to be extremely dry to perform well and will want to return to their original shape until its dry-dry.
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Bernie, you have Great techniques for training the wood.PK
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Thank you, PK.
Ryan - Oh great - LOL. Well, that's where experience comes in handy - thank you - I'll fall back and regroup, as we used to say in the Corps ;). (I must admit, I was trying my best to stay away from steam heat - time to learn/practice it I guess.)
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I was advised by good friend, Pat B, to Shellac Hollyween's back for her, before trying to steam heat for bending, just in case she took a notion to crack, after the hydration. The shellac will stand the heat and steam, whereas the washable white glue I usually use, of course, would not. So I picked up a can on my way hunting (no luck again) yesterday evening, and "do-ed it to-ed it" this AM. ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS061-1.jpg)
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Wow Bernie - lot's of pictures and reading :). Looks like your getting close, I like that grip area you whittled out!
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Thank you, cb, I'm pretty pleased with the handle's progress also. You're right though - I'm just a real "blabber-mouth" - one of these days they are going to put a ceiling on my number of posts within a given thread, and then I'll feel like an Italian with his hands tied behind him :D Of course, one reason i have so many pics/words is because of all my false starts and changes of directions - ;D
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This is without a doubt one of the best build alongs I have ever been priveledged to read. Thank you for all the tips and tricks. I too use the table cloth trick to catch chips and shavings. I especialy like it when knapping obsidian.
That is one dandy bow you have going there. Especialy like that handle section.
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Thank you so very much, majsnuff.
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This morning, I hitched up my trousers and tackled some steam bending attempts (my first) on Hollyween. With the bow back shellaced, I turned my attention to a dry run of the placement of the clamps, to bend the handle a little more, so I (and they) would be prepared after the steaming. That is a suggested proceedure, since time is at a premium to get your bow clamped how you want it, quickly after steaming. The upright 2x4s are to give me solid places to clamp for sidewards movement of the handle, and they are clamped in the portable work bench, behind the 4x4 side of the jaws and the original back jaw of the work bench. The horizontal 2x4 is wedged between the upright 2x4s and the two small trough-shaped forms, to keep them from sliding backwards when I apply the clamps. I think I have it set up OK to do what I hope to do. Doing the handle is just the first step, if it works, and then iIwill attempt to steam and bend each of the limbs, as needed, on other days:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS062.jpg)
Then I set up the steamer pot, and got the tinfoil ready to "tent" the bow(I'm told it doesn't have to be air tight - it is OK for some of the steam to escape - most of mine condensed on the tinfoil and went back into the boiling water below anyway. After boiling the water, I cut the heat down to keep it just at a simmering boil. Once the bow (and foil) was in position for the hour of steaming, I took a pic of the set-up, as it was starting the steaming process:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS063.jpg)
After an hour of boiling (check the water level now and then, and be careful - steam burns you quickly and badly), I quickly, swiftly, and delftly (Ha-ha, as best I could) got the bow clamped up in the way I had prepared to, and here is a pic of that. As suggested, I will leave it clamped for 24 hours, and hope for the best results:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS064.jpg)
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Looking Awsome Bernie, Keep it up and you are going to get addicted to character bows......... ;)
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Coming along nicely, Bernie. Handle areas are difficult to get to bend because of the thickness. Hope it works out as planned. Pat
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Looks like ya got it surrounded Bernie - hopefully it'll give up without too much of a fight ;D.
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Thanks, all. I do hope it will keep, at least, some of the move it took, when I release the clamps tomorrow. It did seem to move easier than with the dry heat attempts. This move is for a little better string alignment, and also to make alignment of the limbs a little easier in the following steam attempts. I think i will go in and sweet talk to her a little - you know, like they do with plants. ::)
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If it seemed to bend pretty easily it will probally be alright Bernie. I would have steamed it a little longer than a hour for wood that thick though. Guess we'll see tomarrow. ;D ;)
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I'll bear trhat in mind, Ryan, in case it doesn't take - That way, I won't be so disappointed and will try again. How much longer are you talking about? (My wife might take her pot back - ;))
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Lol. Just make sure you don't boil her good pot dry. >:D Been there done that, wasn't pretty. :'( Now I have my own pot. lol....I believe the old rule is supposed to be a half hour per half inch of wood but I tend to go a little longer than that. I've been steaming semi tillered bow limbs a hour to bend a recurve and there thinner than a half a inch. Looks like the handle area you bending there is around a inch thick or so. I'd go for a hour and a quarter maybe even hour and a half. You'll know when you got it hot enough it should bend like a wet noodle. Well almost...... ::) ;D
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Thanks. It wasn't approaching a wet noodle stage, I'm afraid. I did notice it moved in one direction easier than in the other one (as you could most likely see, I was attempting a compound movement.) I'll keep my eyes out for my own pot (and a window to throw it out - snicker), and in the meantime I think I'll go to one of her less favorite ones - just in case.
(Are we having fun yet?)
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;D actualy I've gone to using a aluminum buffet pan, cheap replaceable and steams more area at once if nessasary. You can do a whole limb on a shorter bow.
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That's a pretty smart (and thrifty) way to go, Ryan, especially as much "flexing" as you do, but you can only use heavy pots/pans on our ceramic-top stove, and I don't have a hot plate or anything like that anymore - at least for now.
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Really? No one told me that. :-\ I've been using it on our glass flat top stove right along. I use both front and rear burners at the same time. ;)
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Wow - I don't recall (or never knew) if it is supposed to damage the pot, or stove top - or what. I'll have to ask the wife if she knows when she gets up. If you've been doing it fight on, I guess it doesn't matter much, except for interst. I do know our neighbor's ceramic stove top (not much older than ours) already looks like a total mess from her careless treatment of it (she's a good cook though - LOL).
The move took some, at least, but I believe I am going to try it again (to learn the lesson well and move it a little more). BTW it also seemed to help the alignement of one of the limbs at the same time. I will use a little larger pot this time and go for an hour and a half, and maybe a little faster boil for more steam too. I like what it did - I just want more and easier/surer results, if possible.
I appreciate your help and encouragement, buddy.
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I asked Rose about the Ceramic Stove Top thing, just to keep from leading anyone astray here. It wasn't "thickness" required, it was "flatness". All of our thin pots were old and no longer flat, so we started looking for flat ones and that led us (and my mind) to thick ones - LOL. Probably with the tinfoil roaster pans the weight of the water makes it flatten out. Wanta know what happens when you put one on that isn't flat - it "dances" and rattles, and therefore doesn't get good transfer of the heat - There- glad we got that cleared up. Sorry for the slight detour, guys.
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OK Bernie. Makes sense. ;D
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The evening before Thanksgiving, armed with more advice from friend Ryano, I found time to re-try steam bending Hollyween's handle. The only difference from the first/last attempt is a longer time in the steam bath. Well, I did switch to a tad larger pot but only because it is not my wife's very favorite one ;D. I steamed the handle (as in the prior pic) for an hour and a half, instead of just an hour. Immediately upon tightening the most crucial clamp (to move the handle sideways), I could see, and feel ,the difference. As you said, Ryan, not quite like a wet noodle but certainly closer to that in comparison than in the earlier attempt. Thursday evening at 8:30 it was time for the unclamping, and I was quickly adding thanks to the ones I'd expressed earlier in the day. The handle hardly moved at all from where I had hoped to move it to, and you can bet I was very pleased with the results. Another lesson learned.
Now about all I need to do, before getting on with the much delayed tillering (I think), is a little steam bending to one tip. I might finish her by next Halloween, yet :D
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Good, Bernie. I'd tell you to take your time but... :) Jawge
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LOL - yeah, i'll consider doing that, Jawge.
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Glad to help Bernie. Did you take it a little bit passed the point where you wanted it to stay with the clamp? There will always be a little bit of creep back off the form. You can make up for this most of the time with a little bit of trial and error, you'll get it. Don't rush yourself. Take your time. ;D
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Ryan, I'd check the instructions that came with your stove. There are some pan specs on a burner but I forget what they are. Jawge
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Hi Bernie-nice work! This is fun to follow along, I enjoy watching your progress, and your willingness to share the details.
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Thanks for staying with me guys - LOL (things are so hectic these days). I do try to go a little beyond what I want (in a move/bend) when I can, Ryano. This Holly fights a little more in that respect, sometimes, it seems.
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While I am in the thros of changing over to a new computer (fortuitous Christmas sale price), I am also nursing the old one along enough to do some things/some days (more fun). So an update on Hollyween:
Finally got some steam heat bending to work on the handle, in my last update, so moved on to trying to do a similar proceedure on the twisted tips. The problem was, I had a couple of things that I needed to change. First I knew the wood would be softer after steaming, so I couldn't use the cresent (adjustable) wrench as before, without crushing the wood. Also I needed something heavier, to reflex the limb tip a little (on the tip of one, and a little further back on the other limb). I finally remembered an old tool I've had for eons - can't even remember where I got it. It is a combination pipe and or oil filter wrench that uses a length of web to do the griping, and the weight of the handle to apply the pressue/leverage. I was able to set it up pretty much like I did the cresent wrech but in different places. Below is a picture of the first tip and then I did it again (with different placement of clamps, etc.) for the other limb. Much to my pleasure it worked pretty well on both tips. One tip, I may have to do a little more on but, not if I get lucky, as I move into tillering. it may be awhile before I get to that, with all else that's going on. The bow looks considerably straighter now (still with plenty of "character" in her).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/HS065.jpg)
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Been sick and changing computers while recovering.
Just one more off-topic comment please, folks. If we ever (or even might) exchange e-mails please send me one now, so that I may get you (back) in my new computer's address book. Thanks.
bdunn1@ec.rr.com
I'll be back 100% soon.
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I am getting back close to normal (physically that is) and should start up on Hollyween again soon (she's looking pretty good after the steam beding of the bow ends.) BTW here is a trick I found, for helping in that prceedure. I was trying to figure how to support the bow were only one end was over the pot on the stove, without it being in danger of falling off the pot. All the sudden it dawned on me to set my camera's adjustable mini-tripod on the counter beside the stove and set it at the proper height to support the other bow tip. Worked like a champ and never a slip, with the foam padded plate for the camera seat. Maybe it will help others too. I also almost have my puters (new and old back to normal as well - LOL)
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Awesome, Bernie. You are a marvel. You don't realize how much you are inspiring me. Glad to hear you are feeling better. Jawge
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Thank you, Jawge - and you always encorage me.
Well, I'm stopped up, dead in the water again, for awhile. Rose caught what I had, and is in about the same shape and test results - but they kept her in the hospital yeasterday, as she has a history of her colds, etc. turning into pneumonia. They want her where they can keep an eye on her.
My dogs (5) are all mad at me, because I didn't bring her home yesterday. You know, the looks that say, "You took her away, now what'd you do with her???"
_________________
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Bernie, sorry to hear that. I hope and pray you are both feeling better soon. Jawge
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Glad to hear of your successes with your bow Bernie, looks like she's coming right along. Get yerself well and get Rose back home too or those pets may take over :). Seriously though - hope your both back in good health quick..
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I got to bring her home today at about 5PM (the dogs - and I - are happier) She is a lot better but still needs some serious improvement. Thanks. guys.
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Bernie, Glad to hear that she is home. Keeping you both in the thoughts and prayers. Bow is coming along nice.
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Thanks for the comment, Keenan, and we can always use the welcome prayers on our behalves. Bless your heart.
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Thank God, Bernie. You and your wife are on my prayer list. Best wishes. George
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She has a little more voice today - still not eating but taking liquids well. I even felt well enough to go outside and shoot a half dzn new (to me) wood arrows that a friend sent me (11 of), with my Osage self bow, "It" - and gave Hollyween a pat or two as I went by her. :)
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Glad to hear Rose is home my friend. You and her have been in my prayers.
Charlie
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Appreciate that, Charlie.
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I finally felt good enough yesterday to start tree tillering "Hollyween" (thank you, Lord), and I should have some pics of progress, again, soon - if she holds up. ;D
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Good to here that Bernie. Thanks for keeping us posted on how Rose is doing. Hope you both have a blessed new year full of good times together.
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Thanks a bunch - she even asked that we go to Bingo last night - so you know she's bouncing back now too. I was hoping to do more on the bow today but we are back to another cold rain day - so guess i won't push it, except shaving a little more - inside.
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Not much to show yet but I will start chasing "Hollyween" again now, weather (and ambition) permitting. Due to the shape of the handle and placement of the limbs, I find I have to put a wooden shim under the right side of the handle to make the limbs sit level in the cradle of my tillering tree. I worked on it a little more today, with four-in-hand file and cabinet scraper. She seems to be bending pretty good for a start but, of course, needs a lot of work yet, I believe. At least you can see she does still exist - ;D - and I haven't given up on her yet.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/0313/Hw001.jpg)
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Take your time Bernie. Glad y'all are feeling better. ;D
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Thank you so much, Ryan. Our voices still squeek - but then our bones creak too - LOL
I worked on Hollyween a little more today - filing the handle and limbs some more and exercising it on the floor but the weather was too damp and unfriendly to go out and check tiller again yet.