Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Zuma on April 25, 2016, 09:28:45 am
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Thought you all might be interested.
I have a way different view on these things.
Flood the market with theses tusks.
Price goes down so does poaching.
Zuma
Burning some of the last vestiges
of elephants solves nothing.
Kenya Says Its Plan to Burn 105 Tons of Ivory Will Protect ... (http://Kenya Says Its Plan to Burn 105 Tons of Ivory Will Protect ...)
on.aol.com/video/kenya-says-its-plan-to-burn-105-tons-of-ivory... (http://aol.com/video/kenya-says-its-plan-to-burn-105-tons-of-ivory...)
Kenya Says Its Plan to Burn 105 Tons of Ivory Will Protect Elephants ... The ivory burningat the end of April will be ... But the same amount by weight and volume
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Have no idea if 105 tons of Ivory would flood market but burning it seems like a terrible waste of natural resource's and $'s that could help protect their Ivory. I don't pretend to be informed enough to know the answer might not be one.
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I agree, flood the market and use the money to help protect them, burning them is a waste, a worthless protest. Do the poachers care that they burned them, NOPE. I can hear them now "Oh man did you see they burned all those tusks, We better stop killing them" .
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If you put them in the market though, then the poachers can easily slip their poached tusks into the market as well. How is a "consumer" supposed to know what is legit ivory and what is not?
Just like we try to use as much of the deer we harvest as possible, it isn't right to take an elephant just for its tusks. Poaching hurts all of us.
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Considering that certain markets pretty much treat elephant ivory like a magic cure-all, I severely doubt it's possible to come even close to "flooding the market". Asia is a pretty big place, and all that would happen is that every scrap would be bought up cheap and sold on at 1000% markup in other countries.
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Back in 1989 Richard Leakey and the Kenya Gov't burned the first pile of 12 tons of ivory. They were publicising the ivory problem. Like Jeff sorta said the idea is to make it so no ivory is legal. It does seem like an awful waste but apparently it worked and the market for ivory fell off. There was a show on about Leakey not to long ago and they discussed this. There's no accounting for how the human brain works.
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I totally appreciate all replies and your thoughts
that go with them. This is just a mania of mine.
Forgive me if you disagree. I do care.
OK --what I have found out is that burning ivory
has little effect in stopping poaching.
Think about it-- It's a law enforcement job that
has failed miserably. Just like international
law has little to do with stopping war.
Just like the demise of the Euro/American elephant
It was by the hand of man, as will it be the end
of the African elephant and large cats.
Here is a little ditty
Remarks at an Ivory Burn | usun.state.gov
usun.state.gov/remarks/7235
(http://usun.state.gov/remarks/7235)
Remarks at an Ivory Burn . Skip to Main Content. Flickr Icon. US Mission ... studies show that the price of ivory in China has nearly been cut in half in the past two
Poachers are better armed and more willing to use violence than ever before. Just a few weeks ago, among the many casualties that the minister alluded to, on April 1st, an eco-guard – a patriot, someone dedicated to protecting Cameroon’s animals and Cameroon’s biodiversity – was captured by a poaching gang and beheaded in Cameroon’s Faro National Park after he confronted the poachers. And yet local eco-guards and rangers are often outnumbered, outgunned, and insufficiently trained. That must change and we must find, collectively, the resources to ensure that they have the capabilities to do the job that so many in Cameroon want to do.
Some links---
Park Rangers Savagely Butcher Elephants They Were Paid To ...
www.carbonated.tv/...park-rangers-slaughter-elephants-protest-wages...
(http://www.carbonated.tv/...park-rangers-slaughter-elephants-protest-wages...)
Park Rangers Savagely Butcher Elephants They Were Paid To Protect. ... Park rangersdiscovered ... the question remains if the rangers continue to slaughter or ...
68 elephants killed by poachers at Africa national park ...
www.nydailynews.com/.../68-elephants...national-park-article-1.1829165
(http://www.nydailynews.com/.../68-elephants...national-park-article-1.1829165)
Park rangers stand near the remains of three elephants that were killed by poachers in the Garamba National Park last month. RABAT, Morocco - One of Africa's oldest ...
Mugabe Orders Elephant Slaughter To Feed ... - rense.com
rense.com/general64/mugg.htm
(http://rense.com/general64/mugg.htm)
Mugabe Orders Elephant Slaughter To Feed Villagers ... National park rangers said they had already shot 10 elephants in the past week.
military-intervention-fails-halt-elephant-slaughter - ifaw.org
www.ifaw.org/united-states/news/too-late-–-military-intervention...
(http://www.ifaw.org/united-states/news/too-late-–-military-intervention...)
Too late – military intervention fails to halt elephant slaughter in Cameroon (GRAPHIC IMAGE)
The U.S. Is Still Complicit in the Worldwide Slaughter of ...
www.takepart.com/article/2015/06/12/trafficking-elephant-body-parts
(http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/06/12/trafficking-elephant-body-parts)
Loopholes in ivory and rhino-horn trade laws are contributing to the killing of 96 elephants a ...the Worldwide Slaughter of Elephants. ... park rangers are ...
Elephants BEHEADED in Cecil the lion Zimbabwe park in ...
www.express.co.uk/news/nature/615492/Elephants-poisoned-cyanide...
(http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/615492/Elephants-poisoned-cyanide...)
Horrifying scenes as 60 elephants BEHEADED in savage mass slaughter in Cecil's parkWARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT HORRIFYING photographs have emerged showing
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I watched a series on this, and they started out by saying that they don't have enough rangers, or equipment, then they showed a huge pile of ivory being burned. I thought Dumb A$$es, There is enough money there to hire more rangers, and equip them, and you just burned it! Take the whole pile, and have a huge sale to the Chinese, and Japanese, but they have to come pick it up. Just doesn't make sense to me either. They cry poor mouth, then destroy an actual fortune. Talk about dumb and dumber!
Wayne
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It's all such a tragedy, and burning the ivory is likely not going to help--the real cause is more likely local poverty, and government and corporate corruption that leaves the locals with no real choice but to poach, combined with ignorance abroad about the true cost of the carved ivory trinket.
Unfortunately every complex problem like this one has a simple, easy to understand WRONG answer. Real solutions are usually complicated and involve compromises that require give on all sides.
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Thanks a lot stick and jeff.
Looking into things may help humanity and
the creatures that have sustained us since
the begining of time.
Maybe not. But at least trying to understand
is worth a try. Discussing these matters with
all-you-all sort of helps. A lot.
Thanks again
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Corruption is the biggest cause IMO. The poachers make pennies on the dollar, if the governments were really serious about stopping it, I think they could.
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Can't elephants still be legally hunted in some places? I was under the impression populations recovered to the point where they were too numerous in certain places.
If someone is wiling to buy the tusks, before long someone else will have some to sell. They should remove them from the live elephants and sell those as no-kill ivory. Don't flood the black market, create a clean one and put the other out of business. Roll the funds back into the protection and harvesting programs.
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Zuma I sure hope because I said I didn't pretend to be informed enough to know answer that I was implying the same for you. I think were both pretty much on the same page but you've done way more reading on it than me. I don't know answer but I'm sure lots of corruption. I'm sure their are a lot of groups raising a lot of$$$$ that's not going where it should be. As for getting into the minds of people by burning ivory. I'm pretty sure the #1 buying country's people wont even know it happened.
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There was just a BBC story on the radio this morning about the illegal ivory trade in Hong Kong and China. Hong Kong has been "phasing out" their ivory trade for over 25 years now. The only hope is that Asia gets educated to the real cost. So that demand dries up
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Burning ivory is the same as us in the US burning weed.
Ivory's like weed if there's a market for it someone will surply it. No matter what it is.
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Can't elephants still be legally hunted in some places? I was under the impression populations recovered to the point where they were too numerous in certain places.
Perhaps I am sure, with enough $ you could still find a place to kill one. I haven't looked into that aspect. I hope you read the link about the slaughter of hundreds of elephants by park people
If someone is wiling to buy the tusks, before long someone else will have some to sell. They should remove them from the live elephants and sell those as no-kill ivory. Don't flood the black market, create a clean one and put the other out of business. Roll the funds back into the protection and harvesting programs.
Well, atleast this would create some jobs :)
Thanks for looking for solutions.
Zuma
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bjrogg, No problems. Same page and yes lots of research.
Just not a lot of answers. Wonder what we could do with
them, if we had them??
Mounter, Yep money talks
jeff, do you think there is hope? Like the west becoming smoke free.
Perhaps not a good analogy. We were only killing ourselves.
crooket-- I would rather be in the tent where they were burning grass
than tusks.
There will always be two sides to a coin.
I appreciate learning about both. thanks
Zuma
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I don't know about solutions. I do think that selling confiscated tusks would be like police departments using seized drug money to fund their departments or small town cops with quotas on speeding tickets--it eventually leads to more dependence on the revenue stream and eventually to corruption.
I have seen a couple of documentaries where tuskless elephants--once a rarity--are now becoming more common due to natural selection, so maybe Darwin will take care of everything. The hope that people will get smarter and end self-destructive behavior seems low to me.
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Thanks jeff, I see where your comming from. :)
But elephants without tusks?? kinda like girls/women
with short hair. Hummm. ;D
Zuma
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I know what you mean- some suggest tranquizing elephants and cutting off the tusks to save them from poachers, but that seems horrible to me too.
And I have been trying to get my wife to grrow out her hair for years. 8)
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Well they did it. 300 million up in smoke :P
I saw video on PBS news. >:(
Zuma
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Ethics is an interesting concept. Say a man Rob's a million dollars in jewels from a a rich home. In the robbery the home owner is shot and killed, leaving no next of kin. As the robber makes his escape across your back yard, a large portion falls from the bag for you to recover the next day. Are you justified in selling them because they would go to waste otherwise? If the police recover the gems, are they justified in reselling the items?
If a church preaches against gambling, should it accept donations from someone's lottery or Vegas winnings?
Somehow the profit from the tusks in this case seems like the same moral question to me,
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Ethics is an interesting concept. Say a man Rob's a million dollars in jewels from a a rich home. In the robbery the home owner is shot and killed, leaving no next of kin. As the robber makes his escape across your back yard, a large portion falls from the bag for you to recover the next day. Are you justified in selling them because they would go to waste otherwise? If the police recover the gems, are they justified in reselling the items?
Somehow the profit from the tusks in this case seems like the same moral question to me,
Well OK but can you show me where they ever torched the jewels?
Ethics and morals are intangables. Dollars and thier equivalents are real.
So were the tusks until today.
You can do something with something but you can't do nothing with nothing.
IMO of course. I think the elephants are crying.
Zuma
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I think they are too.
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I know in some places they are capturing elephants and dying the tusks a bright color that cannot be removed so as to leave the elephant with their tusks but render them useless for ivory.
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I know in some places they are capturing elephants and dying the tusks a bright color that cannot be removed so as to leave the elephant with their tusks but render them useless for ivory.
Interesting concept, I hope we hear more about it.
thanks Zuma
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I know in some places they are capturing elephants and dying the tusks a bright color that cannot be removed so as to leave the elephant with their tusks but render them useless for ivory.
Interesting concept, I hope we hear more about it.
thanks Zuma
I've heard that the problem with the dyed/removed tusks is that poachers go to the trouble of tracking an elephant and when they find it with dyed/removed tusks they kill it anyway so they don't waste their time tracking it again. Pretty depressing to think about. :-\
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I hate to say it, but it seems like it's going to happen no matter what someone tries to do to stop it. You are talking about countries that have a hard time providing safe water and food for the majority of the people in their country.
Do you think that this argument didn't happen during Paleo times? "We can't sale any more Mastodon steaks, we'll run out"
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The sad truth is that this type of thing is going on in the US right now with drugs. A kid grows up poor, in a bad neighborhood. He sees his neighbor work his butt off, working 2 jobs, 60 hours a week and just scrapes by. He also sees the guy seeing drugs, working a few hours a day, and has everything that he could ever want. Cars, Women, a house, friends, drugs and booze. Why work 60 hours a week and only barely squeak by, when you can sling some drugs and live the fat life? The answer is pretty simple. I sleep well at night knowing that I get mine the right way. I don't have to watch out for people who want to steal from me (For the most part), and I don't have to be afraid of every slow moving vehicle, or police officer I see.
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I scratch my heads as to why a government that could really use the money wouldn't sell instead of burn.
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Makes perfect sense if and only if a few crooked officials are sitting on a stash of the best stuff that was sorted out of the confiscated ivory. Why glut the market and drive prices down so the government makes a little money off a whole lot of ivory. When they can make a big show of destroying tons of it, drive up the price and make a killing for themselves by moving smaller, harder to track parcels. I'm not saying that's what happened, only that it's the only scenario that makes sense to me. Josh
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Thanks for all the great replies fellas. :)
I hope that it helps in any small way ???
Doc, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Let the grunt poachers do the work, steal their ivory
then burn some to appease the tree huggers.
There are way to many elephants being killed.
There are satellites, aircraft, drones, heat and audio
sensing equipment and elephants can't hide that easily
with a lo-jack slipped under their thick hide.
Thanks Jo jo ;)
Zuma