Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on February 01, 2022, 01:46:53 pm
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I've been re-reading the TBB volumes, and I'm a bit baffled by all the different views on recurves. Some writers say they're mostly just for looks, and that a well-designed, tin-tipped straight bow will shoot every bit as well as a 'curve, or even better because recurves require more mass in the tips. Others say they will make a bow faster, or that their primary benefit is reducing string angle on short bows.
So, once and for freakin' all, what exactly do recurves do? What are the advantages over well-designed straight bows? Are they worth the extra work, risk of breakage?
I'm asking because I've pounded up some sinew, and I'm going to cut some juniper as soon as I'm feeling better (covid kicked my tail last week), and I'm thinking about recurving the tips...and after further reading I'm wondering if it's worth it. Any empirical insights appreciated! :o
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They do 2 things:-
1. Increase the poundage required to brace the bow. This increases the stored energy (area under the force draw curve).
2. Improves the string angle (angle of tip and string) at full draw, this helps to avoid stacking which can accur when the angle get greater than 90 degrees.
BUT... you don't get 'owt for n'owt... what you gain in early poundage you can lose in potential draw length. This doesn't matter if you are drawing say 26"... but if you are drawing 30" then the bow may be overstressed.
Lake all of this stuff it's compromises... if the bow is short, you may not be able to give it recurve. Do you like long bows or do you want a compact hunting bow...?
Del
PS...oh and they look pretty ::)
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I don't recurve for looks.. I recurve for additional speed. if anyone downplays the effect they aren't doing it right. My curves are all static. My bows are usually short.. 58 to 62.. 26.5 draw.. gut
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Well in my opinion nothing grabs my attention like a recurve. They just look sooo good...that being said I've only made one and I finished it at Tennessee classic last year and gave it away in a bow trade. Had diamondback skins on it to boot. I will make another...maybe at this year's classic
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PS...oh and they look pretty ::)
They DO! They seem to be a prereq for winning BOM, so there's that, too. ha ha
Thanks for the tips, guys. Might go ahead and give it a shot. Gut, what design characteristics do I need to go for to gain speed? This is probably going to be about 58-60", sinew-backed juniper.
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I'll recurve the outer limbs for a short stiff handled bow to improve string angle. But I don't think it is worth the trouble for longer bows unless you are into that look.
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It depends. The shorter the bow and longer the draw, the more a recurve makes sense.
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I’ve only built a handful. But if you make the recurve work and bend it makes them fast for sure. If it is static it helps by making the bow gain more energy at the first part of the draw. I have shot the same arrow out of a flipped tip longbow, a static recurve and a working recurve. All 245 yds give or take a few yds. So yes if you are trying to break records. If you want a good shooting dependable bow go with a 67” ten inch handle pyramid with 2-3” of flipped tips in the last 9”. Keep the ends light as possible and they will be fast. Now here comes the other side I’m sure. But that’s ok ! Cause I sure don’t know it all. As far as bow of the month . Well I know a guy that broke the broadhead flight record by thirty yds with a recurve and could not win bow of the month. So don’t worry about all that and build a couple and decide for your self. Arvin🤠
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I’ve only built a handful. But if you make the recurve work and bend it makes them fast for sure. If it is static it helps by making the bow gain more energy at the first part of the draw. I have shot the same arrow out of a flipped tip longbow, a static recurve and a working recurve. All 245 yds give or take a few yds. So yes if you are trying to break records. If you want a good shooting dependable bow go with a 67” ten inch handle pyramid with 2-3” of flipped tips in the last 9”. Keep the ends light as possible and they will be fast. Now here comes the other side I’m sure. But that’s ok ! Cause I sure don’t know it all. As far as bow of the month . Well I know a guy that broke the broadhead flight record by thirty yds with a recurve and could not win bow of the month. So don’t worry about all that and build a couple and decide for your self. Arvin🤠
I have been working hard to stay on your heels with my recurves vs your long straight bows. A final answer will be available next year in the salt flats ;)
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Made a handful of recurves and decided it wasn’t worth it for me personally. It improves string angle on a short bow, but the rest seems pretty negligible. Wasn’t a big fan of the forms, cracks/splinters, alignment, and other possible quirks of recurving the limbs. I prefer the look of a long, straight-limbed bow and can shoot more accurately with them anyway!
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I’m a big fan of recurves. I like math and woodworking, so any time I can complicate something, I will, and recurves are great for that. What I got from the TBB was that a straight can shoot as fast as a recurve if made “properly.” When you made a recurve, extra mass is required in order to take the extra strain. With a straight limb, you can reduce that mass which makes up for the added benefits of a recurve. Of course this is all true if you work in a perfect world and like to push limits. I’d say go for the recurve, they really add something to a bow.
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I doubt a straight limbed bow can match the best recurves. A very well made static recurve will out shoot a very well made straight limbed bow (with a heavy arrow) by about 5 - 10fps.
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I doubt a straight limbed bow can match the best recurves. A very well made static recurve will out shoot a very well made straight limbed bow (with a heavy arrow) by about 5 - 10fps.
I'm with you on that, but for the most part the average guy won't notice the difference, which is why recurves don't typically get the credit they deserve. Also it's not uncommon for them to not be built or tillered right to take advantage of their potential.
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just make a straight bow and chrono it. then recurve it an retiller to equal drawweight. chrono again with same arrow.
I did and the recurved bow outshoot the straight bow by 10fps. however the straight limbed version was not fully optimized on the outers with a bit too much mass that was needed for the curves later. Despite this I'm sure there was a significant advantage for the recurved bow.
Still I'm not sure weather a recurved bow is always fastest. My impression is that overall reflex is most important. A straight limbed bow with same overall reflex like the challenging recurve might not be slower.
I like the smooth draw of a recurve.
cheers
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I've bent a lot of tips from 30 degrees to 70 degrees angle.I've made a handful of static recurves.Even more working recurves.More yet of straight limb tipped self bows with most all of them that I use retaining some sort of reflex of 2 to 4 inches.
Usually test them all and in short not worth the effort and I'll explain why I feel this way.
The straight limbed bows come in for me only a few feet per second slower.That's not to say only a few feet per second slower than my higher reflexed bows of 6" or more which will shoot at least 10 feet per second faster,and visibly faster to the naked eye.
Speaking from a hunters' perspective through long durations of sitting in cold weather for a shot sometimes, and when the shot arrives it's in a more awkward position the straight limbed bows are a lot more pleasant and accurate for me to shoot.In short when hunting that is no.1.Way different than standing comfortably at a shooting range shooting at targets.I mentioned cold weather because when sitting for hours your muscles can get stiff.
The few feet per second extra from a recurve does not help if the arrow is'nt in the right spot and is'nt going to make any difference to me or the deer or Robin as far as penetration goes either.
To me there is nothing more eye catching than a well performing simple straight limbed self bow.
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I usually flip the tips, last 6/8 inches on most of my bows,some what static but with a little movement at full draw,not really a full recurve, I do it not really for speed, it just make them smoother to draw to me and no stacking, probably a little faster also. :-\ I also like the early draw weight in case I want to play a tune on it while waiting on a deer. ;) :) :) :)
Pappy
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For my personal bows I like to flip the tips. I have a short power stroke and the flipped tips give me early string tension and a smooth draw to full draw. I suspect if I had a 28”+ draw I might have a different opinion, but my 24 seems to work better with flipped tips.
Bjrogg
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whistlingbadger... to gain speed I would go with the static recurve and take off as much wood as you can to keep it static. after the bend where the static is thin the tips , since they won't be moving as much as possible.. you can lay your sinew to the bend and wrap if you are worried it might pull.. no need to sinew tips since they aren't bending and it just adds weight.. since you are sinewing you can decrease length a tad too if you want..short bows and sinew are like peas and carrots.. they just go together and compliment each other..... there is a thread on recurving bows here I posted a link too that shows me doing a static recurve and how I set up a bow for recurving.. might help .. one thing to remember.. when first bracing you will feel like you are well over weight .. that is the early tension the curve is giving.. be careful not to floor till too much of that out.. if you leave tips static they wont pull out also.. good luck .. the bow I recurved still sits in closet but it is about ready.. its a hickory bow and the humidity here plays havoc on hickory.. gut
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My personal favorite has always been a straight limb bow. That said, I'm drawn to building recurves for some reason. I keep telling myself that the "next" one will be a straight limb bow but that just doesn't seem to work out that way. I love the looks of a well tillered recurve, from unbraced to braced to full draw, but whether my recurves perform better than my straight limbs bows I have no way to tell except to shoot them...some seem to, some don't.
I usually do add a little reflex to my straight limbed bows either the full length or the last few inches of each limb. To me, all of it is worth it if for no other reason because I think it is. :OK
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I go through phases in my bow making, straight limb over build bows at first, slender bows, almost all backed with snake skins, bamboo backed bows, slender straight limb bows with none backed with snake skins and my current phase of unbacked static recurves. My choices have nothing to do with performance, I just make what I find appealing at the time and have kept things interesting for the last 27 years, I always want to be learning something different to advance the craft.
My best shooting bow to date is a static recurve, could be the design or it could be all the experience I have gained over the years going into that particular bow.
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Recurves are shorter bows when compared to a straight limb bow. Maybe shoot a little harder with good string angle, but I am fine with couple inches of reflex on a straight limb bow.
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The simple answer is that for most people it is......subjective.....
But if the recurve wasn't worth the effort.....there wouldn't be any out there....would there!
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Point is WB everyone should make a few static recurve bows with this bow making.A true recurve has the string touching the belly of the limb tip while braced at least a couple of inches.The benefits of smoothness at the end of the draw are noticeable by the shooter and on a FDC with the tips bent 35 degrees or more.
The construction will take you into areas of bow building you would'nt normally go.The more the bend the more crucial alignment is needed.Otherwise it'll throw the string as it is drawn.You'll be amazed as to how many times you can reheat the stiff tips for alignment while still keeping the bend originally made.
On shorter bows with a longer draw getting the bend on the last 3" of the tip is helpful to get more working limb.
A 60" TTT static recurve.
(https://i.imgur.com/jFObLJZ.jpg)
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That’s a nice one Ed!
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Here’s one I built in Tennessee last fall.
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That’s more flipped tips than a recurve. I think about 3-1/4 inches on the flip.
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Nice bow Ed and Arvin I seen you make that one, very nice bow for sure. How does it shoot ? ;)
Pappy
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Mark I shot it some at twin oaks and it shot with authority. But I've not tested it for flight yet. It was a good visit with you guys though.
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All nice bows above. No one has mentioned my favorite design for hunting. I no longer hunt, but a bamboo siyah bow made properly. Compact,smooth drawing,and snappy. Simple design ,and easy to build, and static tipped.
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Of the fastest bows in the world, there is a mix of straight limbed and recurved bows. People like Arvin, DC, sleek, badger, and Marc St Louis are consistently making good competition between the designs. So it likely comes down to if the extra work is worth the aesthetic appeal for most people. You may find within your own skill level that you produce better bows of one design compared to others. Exploration and extending yourself to try more difficult designs has merit in and of itself.
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So, what you're all saying is...it depends. Just what I expected. :) Pros and cons, like so many other things in archery. I think I'm going to try making two more-or-less identical bows, one with curves and one straight, and see which I like better--the build, the performance, the looks. Thanks for all the questions.
One more question: I hear people talking about "flipping the tips." What does that mean, exactly? It seems like it is almost but not quite synonymous with "recurving the tips." Can anybody clarify for me?
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flipping the tips is not recurving at all.. it is simply reflexing the last 5 or so inches of a straight bow. ..I usually flip my tips on my longbows for a few reasons.. one , it looks good on unbraced and braced profile and helps with speed slightly.. much easier to flip tips than recurve.. usually dry heat is all you need ....on a bow that has taken a lil set it helps the most.. IMO.. gut
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I think it was Ed that said recurves should have at least 2” of string laying on the limb to be considered much of a recurve. I agree. It’s a longbow when less than one inch. The bow above has probably close to 2” on the limbs. That’s why I said close to flipped tip. Could brace it higher but I like it where it is. Lots of different opinions on this I’m sure. Nothing to argue about though. How ever it feels good to is the right way.🤠
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Flipping tips is just a milder degree of recurving. It can't be anything else.
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Ok
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OK, so flipping the tips is to recurve as Brittney Spears is to Lady Gaga: Same basic idea, just not taken to the same extreme. Gotcha.
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OK, so flipping the tips is to recurve as Brittney Spears is to Lady Gaga: Same basic idea, just not taken to the same extreme. Gotcha.
I really had to hold back a busted gut laughing at this
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The one thing about the more extreme type of static recurves is that I'm not a fan of is the bracing of them.As I don't like the through the legs type of bracing procedure.As the push pull and primitive bracer type of bracing is'nt possible for me.
Another thing about the recurve look.Having the look at brace and full draw does not tell the whole story as far as performance goes.It's in the amount of reflex that the working limbs have.The unbraced profile.The amount of early draw weight it has or storage energy.
That holds true for a straight tipped bow limb too.
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Ed, I use a push/pull style bracing normally but with most recurves I use a bow stringer and even then you have to be careful the bow doesn't flip on you as you work towards brace.
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Yes it's a PITA.I have a sliding type rubber bracer I use.
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Yeah, I've found that with my fi#@*gl@$$ recurve. I use one of those stringers with the cup on one end and the soft rubber pad on the other. Doesn't word great on a recurve, and I think the friction would be bad on a sinew or snake-backed bow. So...Might make sense to carve double nocks into one end so I can use a loop stringer.
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My stringers have a leather cup on each end. I never trusted the ones with the cup on one end and the rubber pad on the other.
I guess to each his own.
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I use push pull method on all but the heavy bows that can’t string at all. I have two rounded boards on my bench that I use for them. I still have to really use might fat body to pull them back far enough to get it strung. I know stringing recurves that way are a bit dangerous but. I’m not the sharpest tack in the box about somethings.🤠
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if you like the way they shoot its worth the work,,its a personal preferance,,I am a hunter,, so if the arrow is going fast enough to take the game,, straight tip of recurve is fine for me,,
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if you like the way they shoot its worth the work,,its a personal preferance,,I am a hunter,, so if the arrow is going fast enough to take the game,, straight tip of recurve is fine for me,,
That's very much the way I feel. I think I'll try a recurve just so I can say I did one. I'm planning on putting in a lot of reflex with the sinew back, so I don't think speed will be a problem. If it's good enough to perforate an elk, it's good enough.
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Bracing a bow with a 35 to 50 degree static bend I can get done easily using the push-pull method or a primitive stringer to brace.It gets more difficult when the recurve is set at 75 to 90 degrees as in the bow I showed.
To reinerate it's the degree factor here.You want the string to lift off the belly of the recurve the last few inches of draw to appreciate the design.Lesser degree of a bend the string lifts off sooner nullifying the effect.
As far as power and speed goes many an elk have been downed by a straight tipped self long bow.
After shooting many a deer here I have no doubt in my mind I could do that in elk country.
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What thickness does the tip have to be to safely recurve it? Do you steam or just heat it?
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Some steam and some use dry heat. I’m a dry heat guy but it can be done both ways. As for thickness I bend at about 1/2-5/8 inch in thickness. But I’m usually just flipping the tips a couple inches. I leave the ends thick till getting the tiller to about 20” of draw and then start taking the mass off the ends. Some on here say they get the ends bending first. Lots of ways to get it done.
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I do them .5 thick and 1.5 wide that way any cracking is easily ground out.